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Rosetta 2 & Intel games


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#21 Homy

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 08:04 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 01 October 2020 - 02:31 AM, said:

Weird that Apple ran the Tomb Raider game at such low settings and resolution for WWDC, if the other game supposedly runs so nicely..

I guess they didn't want to run such old game from 2013 for marketing reasons, but a more recent game like Shadow of the Tomb Raider.

#22 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 09:13 AM

Makes sense I guess. But at least it gives me hope for old school gaming, since we all have bazillions of those games..
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#23 jeannot

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Posted 15 October 2020 - 11:33 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 01 October 2020 - 02:31 AM, said:

Weird that Apple ran the Tomb Raider game at such low settings and resolution for WWDC, if the other game supposedly runs so nicely..
After spending too much time analysing this demo, I have come to the firm conclusion that no iGPU, from either intel or AMD (including Renoir and the latest intel Xe) can achieve what was shown by Apple.
The resolution (1080p) and settings aren't that low. Settings are mostly medium, with low-quality textures (I painstakingly compared images from the same scene on my Mac).

This game is demanding, and basically no iGPU can run it decently.

#24 ozzy

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Posted 15 October 2020 - 03:11 PM

I agree with that assessment. I actually re-installed Shadow of the Tomb Raider on my 2018 13" MBP to get a sense for what the iGPU can do. It could run at 22 FPS on 1080p at Medium settings (32 FPS on Low settings at 1080p), but it clearly doesn't have the features or horsepower to drive the game at normal medium settings. It looked like garbage compared to 1080p Medium on my eGPU, and compared to the video from Apple. Granted this laptop is now 2 years old, but it has a quad-core i7 and Intel Iris Plus 655 and it can't come remotely close to what Apple was showing.

#25 jeannot

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Posted 15 October 2020 - 03:39 PM

Now here's the latest intel iGPU from the "tiger lake" generation:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwsmX62Gqk[/media]
... at lowest settings.
But apparently, Feral has managed to make the game run better on macOS than on Windows using intel GPUs. Brad Oliver confirmed this to me.
Still, the game would run probably much better on Apple GPUs after a few optimisation and re-compiling.

#26 ozzy

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Posted 15 October 2020 - 04:23 PM

I can't do a direct comparison, but I believe it.

Rise of the Tomb Raider runs equal (+/- .1% on FPS) on my 2012 Retina MBP between 10.14.x and Windows 10 (Vega 56). So stands to reason that Shadow of the Tomb Raider would as well.

My 2018 MBP in 10.14.x is ~5% faster than my 2012 MBP in 10.14.x and in Windows 10 in Rise of the Tomb Raider. And my 2018 MBP in 10.15.x is ~17% faster than my 2012 MBP in Windows 10 on Shadow of the Tomb Raider. I just can't do a direct Shadow of the Tomb Raider comparison because I don't want to load 10.15.x on my 2012 MBP and lose access to all old 32 bit games (and I can't load Windows 10 on my 2018 MBP because it is a work laptop that is locked down for security reasons).

#27 Homy

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Posted 10 November 2020 - 04:19 PM

Don't forget to report here when you buy your new M1 Macs and have tried some games. :)

#28 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 10 November 2020 - 04:53 PM

If I didn't need bootcamp for work I would be very tempted to sell my 16" MBP and try out the new 13" M1 MBP
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#29 macdude22

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Posted 10 November 2020 - 10:06 PM

View PostHomy, on 10 November 2020 - 04:19 PM, said:

Don't forget to report here when you buy your new M1 Macs and have tried some games. :)

I heard on Inside Mac Games Inside PC Games there are no games for Mac, there is only PC. Alas I will have nothing to test on the Mini and Air on order.
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#30 Matt Diamond

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 10:39 AM

Macdude22 has been waiting for this moment a long time. :-) I hope it meets your expectations.

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#31 the Battle Cat

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 02:11 PM

Concerning the specs of the new M1 Mini, Macdude told me, "I do think that we are looking at the floor not the middle or ceiling with this first batch."

But I'm not worried about that.  A fully loaded M1 Mini is 1600 space credits, so my wife game me the go ahead to score another one whenever I like.  This will last me to the L337 M1 Ceiling Mini, then I'll pop for that.  Ima getting that M1 Floor Mini today!  I'll report back.
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#32 Ichigo27

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 03:15 PM

In other words the Neural Engine, assuming thats a name given for the M1 ARM cpus integrated graphics performs similar to intels mixed bag iGPUs? Compare that to even AMDs apu which seem to have a bit better performance than intels makes one think. Again we have to take into account mac minis and macbook airs with an arm cpu are still overpriced and lack a decent amount of ram. Its preferable for a computer to have at least 18-20.
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#33 Janichsan

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 03:27 PM

View PostIchigo27, on 11 November 2020 - 03:15 PM, said:

In other words the Neural Engine, assuming thats a name given for the M1 ARM cpus integrated graphics ...
The Neural Engine is their machine learning/AI accelerator. It's not the GPU.

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#34 Ichigo27

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 08:12 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 01 October 2020 - 06:41 AM, said:

The PS5 has ray tracing and has no DX12 support. They do use a proprietary graphics API though (one low level one for max performance, and another more general one for ease of development)

Off topic for this thread but what does that mean for the API that the playstation 5 uses?  I haven't really heard much about which graphics library that console uses, did not hear anything surrounding Vulkan. I thought the playstation 4 used a modified version of Open GL ES made for that console.

View PostJanichsan, on 11 November 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

The Neural Engine is their machine learning/AI accelerator. It's not the GPU.

Similar to CUDA cores on nvidia GTX dedicated GPUs? Don't know about you but it seems that apple is being vague about what type of iGPU that their ARM cpus have.
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#35 nick68k

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 09:18 PM

View PostIchigo27, on 11 November 2020 - 08:12 PM, said:

Don't know about you but it seems that apple is being vague about what type of iGPU that their ARM cpus have.

I'm not sure what kind of answer you expect from Apple here. Other than it's something custom (there may be more, general, details in the M1 white paper which presumably will be available to developers at some point). The PowerVR GPU cores disappeared with the advent of the A11.

(Or to put it another way, I'm not sure what the question is).
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#36 Janichsan

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 01:02 AM

View PostIchigo27, on 11 November 2020 - 08:12 PM, said:

Similar to CUDA cores on nvidia GTX dedicated GPUs?
Not really. CUDA cores are general compute cores which can be used also for machine learning/neuronal networks, while the Neural Engine is specifically taylored for nothing but machine learning/neuronal networks. A somewhat closer analogy would be Nvidia's RT cores, which are dedicated to a very specific task (raytracing in this case), but with a different task.

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Don't know about you but it seems that apple is being vague about what type of iGPU that their ARM cpus have.
It's Apple GPUs. Couldn't be clearer. :P

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#37 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 02:30 AM

I would have upvoted you Janichsan, but I hit my daily limit of upvotes. So you have to read this post, and let your heart warm on pure thoughts. You're welcome.

OpenCL scores out today sets the M1 at around 18000 on Geekbench 5, so were in the GTX 1050 neighbourhood it seems. I wonder what Apple will do for real GPU work, now they're likely ditching NVIDIA/ARM for good.

Edited by the Battle Cat, 12 November 2020 - 04:30 PM.
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#38 Atticus

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 10:25 AM

My initial takeaway from reading various Mac news sites is that with the new chips/architecture, the amounts of RAM used for Intel Macs (8GB, 16GB, etc) aren't comparable to this new fancy "unified RAM" being used with M1. Is this true or just what Apple wants us to think? Is apple doomed? Are we doomed?
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#39 Matt Diamond

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 10:55 AM

Just one point of reference: I am doing heavy software development with a 2018 MBP, which is also limited to 16 GB.

Back when I was running VMWare 16GB was tight, but It's no longer an issue. I run multiple browsers, bloated IDEs, MS software and iTunes Music and I don't ever think about it or close apps to save memory. OS X is  good at this.

Obviously there are workloads that need more memory. But I think our old instincts about how much memory the average professional needs may be outdated.

I don't know anything about the new unified memory, or why it would help. I'd be interested in more info.

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#40 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 12 November 2020 - 11:39 AM

View PostAtticus, on 12 November 2020 - 10:25 AM, said:

My initial takeaway from reading various Mac news sites is that with the new chips/architecture, the amounts of RAM used for Intel Macs (8GB, 16GB, etc) aren't comparable to this new fancy "unified RAM" being used with M1. Is this true or just what Apple wants us to think? Is apple doomed? Are we doomed?
RAM is RAM, and either something is stored there or not. But software is more intelligent now, especially the OS, as to what needs to stay there or what not, and it is also much much faster. 16 is not enough for a lot of professionals, but it will be sufficient for the vast majority for a long while. But 500 bytes were also sufficient a few decades ago..
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