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The Last Jedi [SPOILERS GALORE]


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#21 Tibur

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 05:17 PM

View PostAtticus, on 20 February 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

The prequels are so bad I just kind of forget about them, so usually aren't included in any analysis I make of current SW movies. :-)
I'm a little behind (not having watched Rogue One or TLJ b/c kids and babysitter availability and short(er) windows for getting to see a movie in the theater and now I've got a Netflix backlog rivaling my game backlog and what was I talking about?), but some of you keep mentioning a mythical prequel trilogy and I have no idea what you're talking about. There's Eps. IV-VI and now Eps. VII and VIII, (plus III.V aka Rogue One) but no I-III. Do you hear me? THERE IS NO PREQUEL TRILOGY!!!

#22 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:05 AM

I know I am in a minority, but I would much rather watch the prequels than the last two movies. They are way more entertaining, and way more Star Wars-y. Sure, they have their problems, but their plotlines are much more interesting and well developed than the last two movies.
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#23 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 08:28 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 21 February 2018 - 01:05 AM, said:

I know I am in a minority, but I would much rather watch the prequels than the last two movies. They are way more entertaining, and way more Star Wars-y. Sure, they have their problems, but their plotlines are much more interesting and well developed than the last two movies.

I think that the context and setting for the prequel movies is amazing: Galaxy at war, Trade Federation/Separatists vs the Republic, a look into the politics and corruption of the day in the Senate/Jedi-Council. It has best backdrop of any Star Wars trilogy.

My issues is just in the execution. There are numerous times I'm literally cringing or laughing at the dialogue/acting (in parts where you are not supposed to be).

Revenge of Sith is a great movie in my opinion, but it is Episodes 1 and 2 that struggle a lot when re-watched with a modern eye.
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#24 Tibur

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 10:38 AM

The prequels lost me at midichlorians. Sorry. The Force is not biological. You aren't more powerful in the Force because you have a higher concentration of microscopic magical space bean creatures in your blood. Otherwise, there'd be a huge market for blood transfusions from those with high concentrations of them in their blood.  Senator Palpatine would be essentially a vampire, going around draining the blood of anyone who showed the slightest ability and young Anakin would have been an empty husk at the beginning of Ep. II.</end rant>

#25 the Battle Cat

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 10:44 AM

^ He's right you know.
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#26 Atticus

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 12:01 PM

midichlorians lol.

I'll always be a Lucas fan for his vision and for creating SW, but, man, he's a horrible director. And also not always a great storyteller, either. Hm.
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#27 Matt Diamond

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 12:50 PM

Quote

if they make him Kylo's punching bag and submissive then his character is just bleh. Whats the point of him?

Good point! Kylo is fearsome but he's not ever shown himself to be a master strategist or competent military commander.  He needs Hux or people like him, and it would nice to show that in action.

OTOH when you have a shadowy evil character with unspecified powers like the original Emperor, the writers can claim that killing him somehow magically means the Rebellion has won. But as far as we know getting rid of Kylo would not destroy the First Order, and in fact might make it more efficient.

Here's how I would end the next movie: they defeat Kylo and somehow resolve the issue of balance in the Force, meaning fewer Jedi and Sith going forward. But Hux takes over and either they acknowledge that the rebellion must continue for years to come, or the two sides negotiate some kind of peace treaty where the First Order controls a much smaller amount of space, and a sort of Cold War begins.

(No, I don't actually think they'll end it this way.)
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#28 Cougar

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 02:10 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 18 February 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

I'm a life-long fan of Star Wars, and really loved The Last Jedi, because it was the fresh wind that the franchise needed: I loved that Rian Johnson kept undermining the series' already stale traditions and avoided becoming paralysed in pure hero worship.

My biggest issue with the movie was its length: the middle part with the pursuit of the Resistance by the Last Order and Finn's shenanigans on Canto Bight dragged on for too long without really adding much to the plot.

I don't care about Star Wars as much as you (it's wizards in space, not science fiction) but I agree wholeheartedly with this. Even considering Star Wars logic, the pursuit of the resistance didn't make much sense. The movie had what I call the "LOST" problem where plot points only existed because the screenwriters decided characters shouldn't talk to one another.

Still, I'd watch it over TFA any day because it's not a paint-by-the-numbers Star Wars plot. Rogue One, this, and TFA would me my rank.

The next one will be interesting because it seemed as though TFA focused on ending Solo's story, and this one Luke's, so the next one was probably going to be Leia's. That sadly can't happen, so as Sneaky Snake pointed out, it will be interesting with Rey alone.

Edit: TLJ gets bonus points from me for the porgs. I thought they would be annoying and a cynical attempt at marketing money (which they are) but when I saw the move I thought "Wow, they're space puffins!" (I love puffins). I didn't know how true this was: Puffins live natively on the Irish island which they filmed on, and they replaced them with porgs.

#29 ipickert55

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 07:34 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 21 February 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

Good point! Kylo is fearsome but he's not ever shown himself to be a master strategist or competent military commander.  He needs Hux or people like him, and it would nice to show that in action.

OTOH when you have a shadowy evil character with unspecified powers like the original Emperor, the writers can claim that killing him somehow magically means the Rebellion has won. But as far as we know getting rid of Kylo would not destroy the First Order, and in fact might make it more efficient.

Ideally I wanted Hux to be the Tarkin to Kylo's Vader (with differences obviously), especially since we didnt get much of Tarkin. Peter Cushing was awesome, and since Domhall Gleeson is also an incredible actor too I was really hoping to have a figure that could challenge Kylo. Not necessarily in direct power (though I kinda want more non Jedi vs Jedi fighting like Finn v Kylo or the throne room guards vs Rey and Kylo, or that Stormtropper with the riot thingy), but in his own scheming and cunning ways, and also have him be the real strategic mastermind behind the imperial forces.

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Here's how I would end the next movie: they defeat Kylo and somehow resolve the issue of balance in the Force, meaning fewer Jedi and Sith going forward. But Hux takes over and either they acknowledge that the rebellion must continue for years to come, or the two sides negotiate some kind of peace treaty where the First Order controls a much smaller amount of space, and a sort of Cold War begins.

This could potentially lead to a SWTOR style universe which has a lot of potential for stories from the both the Republic/Jedi and Empire/Sith. It'd be interesting if Disney would do that but that would also mean leaving the ST with an open ended fate. Who knows.

View PostCougar, on 21 February 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

Still, I'd watch it over TFA any day because it's not a paint-by-the-numbers Star Wars plot. Rogue One, this, and TFA would me my rank.

I guess im an odd one out because i can like both TFA and Rogue One. I loved the fact that it was a traditional story with minor spins brought into the new generation, and I also loved how Rogue One was completely different and had a much darker tone. They both have incredible rewatch value for me. TFA is always a blast and though the first half of Rogue One is a bit rough the second half is nuts.
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#30 ipickert55

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 10:45 PM

I'd like to say that in the end, it doesn't matter. This movie was made, the decisions have been made, and story will go on. This movie was still part of one of if not my most beloved franchises/universes ever, so that already makes me partial toward it by default, even if I don't like parts of it (see Prequels). It's probably because I love this franchise so much that I can write friggin essays on a video game forum about it, but I won't let that distract me from the bigger picture of: this is a movie, life will go on.

Just wanted to toss that in :)
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#31 Janichsan

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 09:03 AM

View Postipickert55, on 20 February 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

But, how was the rebellion reborn? Instilling hope is great and its one of the central themes of star wars but what tangible thing happened to back that up and instill hope? The rebels got their popsnizzle kicked in and Luke showed up as a ghost for a few seconds to frak with Kylo?
This is what the final scene of TLJ was about: the Resistance didn't need a tangible act of heroism to instill new hope, they needed a symbol, a legend.

And Luke provided them with that: the quite literally legendary Luke Skywalker, destroyer of the first Death Star, vanquisher of Emperor Palpatine, and (supposedly) the last remaining Jedi finally came out of hiding, single-handedly stopped the First Order's attempt to crush the remnants of the Resistance, survived a full barrage of blaster fire, humbled the new Supreme Leader Kylo Ren, and – as far as the largest part of the Galaxy is concerned – lives: the last few rebels didn't see he was just a "ghost" (they were already boarding the Falcon at that time), and I doubt anyone of the First Order but Kylo really understood what they saw.

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He's honestly started to feel a bit like Revan to me. He's clearly got an evil and severe side but thats not all he is. He truly is a just a damaged and complicated individual. I'd say he's the best character in Star Wars.
I'll agree with that.

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I mean, Kathleen Kennedy's statement about the films following the skywalkers still applies. Ben Solo is still a Skywalker, and he is clearly a large focus of these movies, so that hasn't changed.
Well, I didn't say the transition for Star Wars from being purely the Skywalker Saga is already finished. ;) But Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is the last remaining descendent of the Skywalker family (taking the inevitable demise of Leia due to the sad circumstances into account), and he is the main antagonist of this trilogy. It won't be a Skywalker that saves the Galaxy this time and would be massively surprised (or maybe disappointed) if there is a Skywalker left at the end of Ep. IX.

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I think that'd be super cheap if Hux just gave up after this movie, and further doing a disservice to his character. He was already made into a gag this entire movie, if they make him Kylo's punching bag and submissive then his character is just bleh. Whats the point of him? Isn't the Empire/First Order supposed to be scary and make the whole galaxy bow to them because of how scared they are? And thats the dude they have running things?
I agree that Hux got a bit of the short end of the stick in this movie, but he still is the military leader of the First Order and actually very successful. And I didn't get the impression that Hux just submitted to Kylo Ren: he grudgingly had to accept that Kylo has at least currently the high ground, but I wouldn't be surprised if we find him in Ep. IX just waiting for an opportunity to turn the tables.

Quote

The thing is, if he's trying to say that it barely affects anyone, then what the hell are we even watching this movie for? If none of this matters to the larger galaxy then why do we care?
I don't think the point was to show that the Resistance's fight is completely pointless, but that the Resistance has become too small and too powerless to do much of a difference, and that large parts of the Galaxy essentially have given up believing in it. That's why the Resistance needed a symbol to bring back hope. And that's were we come back the top of this post… ;)

View PostSneaky Snake, on 21 February 2018 - 08:28 AM, said:

I think that the context and setting for the prequel movies is amazing: Galaxy at war, Trade Federation/Separatists vs the Republic, a look into the politics and corruption of the day in the Senate/Jedi-Council. It has best backdrop of any Star Wars trilogy.

My issues is just in the execution. There are numerous times I'm literally cringing or laughing at the dialogue/acting (in parts where you are not supposed to be).

Revenge of Sith is a great movie in my opinion, but it is Episodes 1 and 2 that struggle a lot when re-watched with a modern eye.
I fully agree with that: they had some good ideas, a few great moments (the Imperial March playing when the clone army marches aboard the Republic's warships at the end of AotC still gives me the shivers), but overall, they are just so badly written and directed. The very artificial look doesn't help them either to age gracefully.

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#32 Matt Diamond

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 07:35 PM

Quote

The movie had what I call the "LOST" problem where plot points only existed because the screenwriters decided characters shouldn't talk to one another.

Yes. This is one of the things I didn't want to get into because it is such a can of worms. There are at least two cases of "why didn't they just SAY something.." One can be explained away, but the other had horrendous consequences that could easily have been avoided.

And I'll have everyone know that I played The Movies for several hours so I am an expert on all of this.
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#33 G_Player

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 09:32 PM

Star Wars in 5 sentences...

Pew… pew.. pew...
Chhhuuuurrr… ssshhhhh… chhhhhuuurrr… sssshhhhh...
Neevvvvaaaa !
Pew… pew… pew...
Aaaaaahhhhh!   Yay!

roll end credits
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#34 the Battle Cat

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 11:26 AM

I might be the only one with this perspective, but I saw A New Hope in a theatre when it came out.  I was about 25.  For it's era and that era's mindset, #4 was much much more powerful than The Last Jedi. That's why the world had it's collective mind blown when it came out.  You can't put yourself in that mind frame to imagine what it was like, you had to have lived through the times leading up to it.  Anymore they are just another summer movie with just another summer movie formula.  Sure they are still fun to watch, and my favorite franchise, but really George... just as you can't go home again you can't recreate the The Movie that grabbed the worlds attention.  The harder you try the worse they get.  You have sharks jumping sharks that are jumping sharks that just got jumped by some other random sharks and are looking desperately for some more sharks to jump to keep the shark popsnizzle running downhill.  Still I watch every frickin' one of them because I love the universe he created and care so deeply about the original players.

So, that's my opinion of the Star Wars movies.  I don't care to try to explain my opinion because it is my opinion alone and I'm not trying to make it yours.
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#35 ipickert55

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 06:50 PM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on 23 February 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

I might be the only one with this perspective, but I saw A New Hope in a theatre when it came out.  I was about 25.  For it's era and that era's mindset, #4 was much much more powerful than The Last Jedi. That's why the world had it's collective mind blown when it came out.  You can't put yourself in that mind frame to imagine what it was like, you had to have lived through the times leading up to it.  Anymore they are just another summer movie with just another summer movie formula.  Sure they are still fun to watch, and my favorite franchise, but really George... just as you can't go home again you can't recreate the The Movie that grabbed the worlds attention.  The harder you try the worse they get.  You have sharks jumping sharks that are jumping sharks that just got jumped by some other random sharks and are looking desperately for some more sharks to jump to keep the shark popsnizzle running downhill.  Still I watch every frickin' one of them because I love the universe he created and care so deeply about the original players.

So, that's my opinion of the Star Wars movies.  I don't care to try to explain my opinion because it is my opinion alone and I'm not trying to make it yours.

I can understand this. I watched them in numerical order (prequels first) and my mind was still blown when I was very young, I can't imagine what it was like for you back then. I agree that those are the two things that keep bringing me back however, the memorable characters and the universe.
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#36 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 02:43 AM

Sometimes I feel I'm the only guy in the world who isn't a Star Wars fan. Nor Star Trek for that matter. What's wrong doctor? :P The thirst three movies (4-5-6) are okay though, but the next two (1-2) were boring as hell so I stopped watching at this point. I do like science fiction, but the 2001 Space Odyssey variety for instance. Or Blade Runner, Soylent Green, Children of Men, Brazil, Alien, or even Terminator.
Now back to your Jedi thread. :)

#37 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 05:32 AM

View PostCamper-Hunter, on 24 February 2018 - 02:43 AM, said:

Sometimes I feel I'm the only guy in the world who isn't a Star Wars fan. Nor Star Trek for that matter. What's wrong doctor? :P The thirst three movies (4-5-6) are okay though, but the next two (1-2) were boring as hell so I stopped watching at this point. I do like science fiction, but the 2001 Space Odyssey variety for instance. Or Blade Runner, Soylent Green, Children of Men, Brazil, Alien, or even Terminator.
Now back to your Jedi thread. :)
Star Trek 1 is very 2001 inspired, so you might appreciate that one.
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#38 Atticus

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 08:44 AM

Yeah, I first saw ANH at the local drive-in theater with my family in 1977 in our 1968 Chevy van (engine compartment was inside and you could open the cover and watch the engine running while doing 60 down the highway).

It was a double bill with Futureworld (Peter Fonda and Blythe Danner) and my parents had to wake me up when ANH finally came on. I wasn't old enough to have the perspective of tBC, but not hard to imagine my seven year old mind was still totally blown. By the time the whine of the rebel ships' engines filled the Yavin temple, I was so completely in the grip of Lucas' fictional universe it would take hold for literally the rest of my life (currently building Bandai's PG Falcon).

So I agree with tBC that a good portion of the rest of SW popularity, fandom, and sequels owe their existence to capturing the lightning in the bottle that was the ANH premiere. Can't really be done, but it's been fun trying. :-)
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#39 Janichsan

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 10:39 AM

To re-activate and repurpose this thread: I don't know if anyone else has already seen "Solo", but I would suggest saving the money and wait for it to be streamable or lendable on disc. It's really not great.

I mean, it's not a disaster either (as you might have expected): it's certainly competently made, passes the time, and has a few good moments, but not enough to make it really worthwhile. It's really lacking thrill and humour, and is utterly devoid of charm. And the "big" surprise at the end feels completely unnecessary.

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#40 Cougar

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 12:27 PM

I've seen so many different (and extreme) opinions on Solo I don't know what to believe. In any case I am not dying to see it; all these franchise movies are wearing me out.

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 24 February 2018 - 05:32 AM, said:

Star Trek 1 is very 2001 inspired, so you might appreciate that one.

No. That's like saying If you like The Birds you'll like Birdemic, because they both have killer birds in them.