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Obduction and UE 4


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#21 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 07:07 PM

I started having doubts about whether I screwed up or not about nVidia HBAO+ not being displayed in Windows when SSAO Ultra is chosen. I was wrong about that but there it is just white text, not bright green as it is with the Mac version for whatever reason. I think I'll let that be my excuse for missing that because well, I don't have any other excuse handy! Sorry about that.

Just for fun while i was in Windows, I turned the resolution down to 1080p and the global slider up to 8 and then further increased advanced settings a bit and ran around some. I could turn a lot of stuff up with the resolution drop. Honestly though and maybe it has something to do with being in cartoon land, I didn't notice any difference particularly. It must be there but it doesn't jump out at you. I think a lot of this stuff is kind of subtle.

I'm glad I can certainly run it well on this system and will probably just revert back to Blizzard's recommendations and stop fooling with it and go play the game instead.
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#22 Cougar

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 04:00 PM

Back on topic, nVidia released Windows drivers with specific optimizations for Obduction and Mankind Divided today. This makes me depressed.

#23 the Battle Cat

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 10:04 AM

Me too Cougar.  I'm pretty tired of the way mac gaming is ignored by Apple and others in the gaming industry.  When I was running Windows in bootcamp my AMD Saphire 7950 drivers were updated by AMD every couple of weeks, NEVER in MacOS.
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#24 Cougar

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 09:10 AM

The game is out, well for PC anyway. They released a beta Mac version for Kickstarter backers only. I'll have to wait a week or so before I can give it a go.

Destructoid gave it a 9/10.

#25 Frigidman™

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 12:29 PM

Lovely!

I love Cyan. I have every single one of their myst games and books.

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#26 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 12:42 PM

Remoted into my gaming desktop from work and started the download. Looking forward to playing when I get home :happy:

5.1 GB download for those wondering.
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#27 Rev-O

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:11 PM

Late 2013 rMBP w/ Iris & 2.6 i5.

1024x640, all settings on medium except water on low.

Constant frame rate stutters, audio is low quality and suffers clipping, sloppy cursor control. It's technically playable, but not anything I'll be launching again anytime soon.

Work in progress indeed!

#28 macdude22

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:52 PM

This is running on Unreal right? Ark is the same way. It's unplayable on a decent Mac. Unreal needs to get their popsnizzle together if they are going to "support" the Mac.
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#29 Rev-O

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:03 PM

Unreal 4, but it seems to be sans Metal. It is more playable at 640x480 for me, but at that point it is so pixelated on my rMBP that it qualifies as a retro game. I've heard that changing it to point and click mode helps as well, but I'm so discouraged at this point I'm going to wait and see if some kind of update occurs and give up on Obduction.

#30 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:01 PM

It doesn't run well on my gaming PC either (see sig). Tried it on Epic settings at 2560x1440 but was getting constant frame drops. Dropping the settings down to High and finally to Medium didn't seem to help much. I wonder if there will be a driver update for the 480 for it, but I kinda doubt it. It is not like this is a super popular game.
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#31 Rev-O

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 09:57 PM

Apparently Obduction is using Metal and having a Mac capable of running Metal is required.
So the "not using Metal" excuse is off the table. The Mac version is just poor.

#32 marksatt

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 09:59 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 24 August 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

This is running on Unreal right? Ark is the same way. It's unplayable on a decent Mac. Unreal needs to get their popsnizzle together if they are going to "support" the Mac.

View PostRev-O, on 24 August 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Unreal 4, but it seems to be sans Metal. It is more playable at 640x480 for me, but at that point it is so pixelated on my rMBP that it qualifies as a retro game. I've heard that changing it to point and click mode helps as well, but I'm so discouraged at this point I'm going to wait and see if some kind of update occurs and give up on Obduction.

Please bear in mind that Cyan marked the Mac version of Obduction as a Beta for a reason.
The game is running on only the second release of UE4 to support Metal on Mac, the upcoming UE4 release implements a number of important features that were lacking from earlier releases while performance optimisation for Metal is an ongoing effort. Implementing support for a new graphics API is non-trivial and its easy to underestimate just how demanding it is.

Any UE4 game that still uses Mac OpenGL, such as Ark, is going to suffer because it was impossible to drag the performance out of the supported version of the GL API. Many a bitter tear has been shed fighting Mac OpenGL bugs in UE4... so I'd be surprised if Obduction still supports it.

Of those involved at Epic, we've been around and worked on many a Mac game before. Personally I was at Feral and was the primary graphics/performance programmer on quite a few titles, so we're not under any illusions. We've had to slog our guts out for over a year to get Mac Metal support in UE4 to this point and we continue to do so. It will improve over time but there are no instant solutions.

On that note I'll also point out that there's a big difference now between a good gaming PC, which would have a full-fat desktop Nvidia 970 GTX or better,  and a decent Mac, which typically has an AMD M370X-M395X variant. The desktop NV GPU in the PC is considerably more powerful than any of the laptop AMD GPUs in a Mac. If Obduction isn't performing well on Sneaky Snake's AMD RX 480 then expectations need to be realistic that a slower machine, regardless of OS, is not going to perform miracles either.

#33 Rev-O

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:23 PM

View Postmarksatt, on 24 August 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

Please bear in mind that Cyan marked the Mac version of Obduction as a Beta for a reason.
The game is running on only the second release of UE4 to support Metal on Mac, the upcoming UE4 release implements a number of important features that were lacking from earlier releases while performance optimisation for Metal is an ongoing effort. Implementing support for a new graphics API is non-trivial and its easy to underestimate just how demanding it is.

I understand that the Mac version is a "work in progress" which is a good thing. Cyan was kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they release the Mac version, such as it is, they're going to get blasted. If they don't release the Mac version and only release the PC version, they're going to get blasted. Guess they picked their poison.

View Postmarksatt, on 24 August 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

Of those involved at Epic, we've been around and worked on many a Mac game before. Personally I was at Feral and was the primary graphics/performance programmer on quite a few titles, so we're not under any illusions. We've had to slog our guts out for over a year to get Mac Metal support in UE4 to this point and we continue to do so. It will improve over time but there are no instant solutions.
I'm not bagging on UE4. You provide a product that Cyan decided to use knowing the challenges such a decision would bring. I've played more than a few UE4 games on XB1 and thought they are fine games. However, Cyan decided to go with UE4 for a game that was intended to be released for the Mac. Unless Epic hid details of Mac performance utilizing UE4 from Cyan, that blame for this decision rests squarely on Cyan.

View Postmarksatt, on 24 August 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

On that note I'll also point out that there's a big difference now between a good gaming PC, which would have a full-fat desktop Nvidia 970 GTX or better,  and a decent Mac, which typically has an AMD M370X-M395X variant. The desktop NV GPU in the PC is considerably more powerful than any of the laptop AMD GPUs in a Mac. If Obduction isn't performing well on Sneaky Snake's AMD RX 480 then expectations need to be realistic that a slower machine, regardless of OS, is not going to perform miracles either.
Yep, Macs are under powered as gaming rigs. Nothing new here. That, however, is not the point. The point is that Cyan decided to collect money from Mac users to fund their project, then utilized an engine that is not optimized for Mac, and then put out a product that won't run on any Mac that cannot run Metal (not disclosed at the time of the KS)  and is a pretty sketchy affair on Macs that can run Metal. Once again, this is not criticism of Epic, this is criticism of Cyan.

#34 Janichsan

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 01:00 AM

View PostRev-O, on 24 August 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

I'm not bagging on UE4. You provide a product that Cyan decided to use knowing the challenges such a decision would bring. I've played more than a few UE4 games on XB1 and thought they are fine games. However, Cyan decided to go with UE4 for a game that was intended to be released for the Mac. Unless Epic hid details of Mac performance utilizing UE4 from Cyan, that blame for this decision rests squarely on Cyan.

[…] The point is that Cyan decided to collect money from Mac users to fund their project, then utilized an engine that is not optimized for Mac, and then put out a product that won't run on any Mac that cannot run Metal (not disclosed at the time of the KS)  and is a pretty sketchy affair on Macs that can run Metal. Once again, this is not criticism of Epic, this is criticism of Cyan.
Unless the developers at Cyan have prophetic skills, there is no way they could have known any of that when deciding on using the UE4: Obduction's Kickstarter campaign ended in November 2013. That's a couple of months before the UE4 was actually released (there only were some demos and an announcement with the promise of Mac support at the time of the campaign), and years before Apple's Metal was a thing.

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#35 macdude22

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:54 AM

Fwiw ark runs like garbage on a decent PC w a 680. It's playable but sub 30 FPS while not looking great.
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#36 Cougar

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:57 AM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 24 August 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

It doesn't run well on my gaming PC either (see sig). Tried it on Epic settings at 2560x1440 but was getting constant frame drops. Dropping the settings down to High and finally to Medium didn't seem to help much. I wonder if there will be a driver update for the 480 for it, but I kinda doubt it. It is not like this is a super popular game.

NVidia did release an "Obduction-ready" driver update last week, so maybe AMD will follow.

I'll report how it runs on my i5 760 / gtx 970 in OS X and Windows 10 in a week or two.

#37 Rev-O

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 05:53 AM

View PostJanichsan, on 25 August 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

Unless the developers at Cyan have prophetic skills, there is no way they could have known any of that when deciding on using the UE4: Obduction's Kickstarter campaign ended in November 2013. That's a couple of months before the UE4 was actually released (there only were some demos and an announcement with the promise of Mac support at the time of the campaign), and years before Apple's Metal was a thing.

Fair enough point about UE4, hadn't bothered to check that in my disappointment! I do know the time table of Metal.
I don't really blame Cyan for not being more forthcoming and I do understand the Mac version is a work in progress. As I said at the top of my post, Cyan was going to get blasted no matter what.

What aggravates me so much about this is the confluence of gaming on Macs, lack of transparency of developers and the trickiness of Kickstarter. Not my first KS and I was certainly apprehensive backing it as they did even try and project system reqs, which I understand on one hand, but even projected sys reqs are kind of important when developing for Macs alongside a PC build. Yes, gets back to your prophetic skills. Cyan didn't mention the Mac build as being a work in progress until recently and I don't recall any discussion of the difficulties of UE4 and Metal in the development blog (which I kept up on for the most part) so some more transparency could have tempered some disappointment.

Whatever the pitfalls and complications of the project the result is the initial Mac build is garbage. Shame, because the game looks really interesting and clearly many people worked long and hard on it. Cyan is probably as down in the mouth as anyone, I would suspect. With future builds of UE4 leveraging metal better there is at least hope that performance will improve.

#38 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 12:22 PM

I was only able to play for about 30 minutes, but the games art style and design look fascinating and intriguing. The performance issues break immersion a bit, but aren't the end of the world since this isn't a fast paced game.
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#39 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 07:08 PM

Not having seen the game I think I can still toss out that not all is necessarily lost because their beta code may be loaded with debugging code and checks, etc. and not well optimized at all. Beta is after all for finding outstanding bugs not found internally on a broader hardware configuration base, not to mention with a group of users who will do unexpected things to break software that may not have been part of any QA test plan. Also, where it is a beta one could hope that a release version will incorporate an updated engine version. So between that and a final pass at optimizing the game it might be considerably better when they call it done. Not only that but if the company is worth their salt, they'll maintain it with engine upgrades that improve performance if it remains an issue.

I know I am being an optimist about something I did not pay for and don't plan to either but I do see the above as being within the realm of possibility. I wouldn't judge anything too harshly based on a beta. In fact, this for me is just one reason I won't even touch beta software. I have enough finished games to keep me busy without messing around with software that is almost certainly going to have issues.

If the current state of affairs gets you down, delete it. Wait for a release and see what it is like then. You can always follow news on development without dancing in the fire yourself. If you find the bleeding edge fun the only thing I can tell you is to measure your expectations accordingly. Unfinished software is just that, unfinished and this certainly includes performance issues.
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#40 marksatt

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:11 PM

DirtyHarry's right - this is a Beta build and that means its not finished. Software development is desperately unpredictable so its not always possible to ship a product on time at the desired quality level. Depending on circumstances that can lead to cancellation, delay or as in this case a public Beta build.

Being disappointed that Obduction's Mac Beta isn't perfect is understandable, but sometimes software development just takes longer than expected. We'll keep plugging away to make UE4 on Mac better but there are no magic bullets.