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Apple Support is Top-Notch


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#21 Matt Diamond

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 10:45 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 02 February 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

https://www.apple.co...ro-videoissues/
Products affected
  • 15-inch and 17-inch MacBook Pro models manufactured in 2011
  • 15-inch MacBook Pro with Retina models manufactured from Mid 2012 to Early 2013

Thanks-- this might explain my wake-from-sleep kernel panics at work. I'll check my model tomorrow.

But really, this is silly. Everyone's Macs are registered. What's the point of giving up our privacy and jumping through hoops if they can't even be bothered to tell us about recalls on the machines that they know we have?

I get it, they don't want people who aren't experiencing symptoms to come in for repairs, but I am sending them kernel panic reports.. I've had symptoms for months, searched the web for a solution several times, but now I learn of this recall (which ends in less than a month) only through blind luck.
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#22 AussieMacGamer

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 04:50 AM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 02 February 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

My takeaway is, AppleCare isn't a classic helpdesk where everyone shares your case history and moves the ball forward. They could all see the history, they just didn't care. None of them respected the previous case workers' conclusions or promises.


I really account for problems in customer service due to varying degrees of competence, especially Applecare. The extent to which the agents differ in competency is massive, and how your issue will be resolved largely depends on who answers the phone. The iMac I recently purchased had a problem in partitioning with Boot Camp. The Computer failed in the middle of the verification process, leaving me with a Fusion drive that was missing 1tb (the space that was allocated to the Windows partition).
There wasn't much useful information online that was easy to find, so knowing what needed to be done (use terminal to tear down the logical storage group and reset it to formatted drives, then re-build it and after re-install the OS) I thought I should call applecare. The first person had no idea what I was talking about, and didn't really try hard enough to solve the problem with tools available, they escalated it and I was offered a replacement. Not only is this a backwards solution that would leave me without a computer for nearly two weeks (5 days to be received and then a new CTO order would need to be placed and later shipped), it is massively wasteful of both company resources and c02 emissions...

I called back and tried my luck again, the second girl didn't understand, but actioned it perfectly. She took notes until she understood the issue enough to be able to explain it to someone else, and farmed her colleagues until they found the right person. I got on to a second tier person from Singapore, perfectly understood what I needed, positioned that he was good with issues pertaining to fusion drive but even he was lacking, yet assured me we'd find the solution. He called back within 30 minutes with the Terminal commands I needed and helped me execute them.


It all leads into my second point, competence is key, but the customer also needs to know how to help. Some customers will always have unrealistic expecations or desire to achieve a goal that wouldn't normally be possible. But if you are assertive in a way that isn't vindictive, it will always lead you to a successful outcome.

Another example, a friend had broken his iPhone screen, he had been denied a repair at the apple store as the damage to the casing would make it impossible to fix the screen, only option was a replacement of the entire phone at triple the cost. I called pretending to be my friend, and basically positioned that it was a popsnizzlety situation to be in, that I had broken the screen yes (something i'd be happy to pay to have fixed), but the small dint in the casing meant the repair solution was now way out of my price range. Never on the offence, I merely asserted myself, explained how I was left in between a rock an a hard place, eventually was put on to a manager who was happy to not only meet halfway, but arranged to have the entire phone replaced at no cost. Had I have called up and acted like a nasty prick, I am certain there would have been no solution other than to have the phone replaced at the full cost when I could afford it.

The person on either end of the system plays a massive role in the effectiveness of customer service.






Oh P.S the LAW does in many places too. Australian consumer law offers massive protections for consumers in Australia, particularly with electronics rendering the applecare protection plan nearly irrelevant. Apple after being placed under scrutiny for years by consumer groups now goes much farther than they need to in Australia. By law the retailer must replace a product if it experiences a major failure within an unreasonable time frame irrespective of manufacturers warranty, Apple takes this a little further and upholds those rights irrespective of place of purchase (I don't think they are so generous with Mac's, so best to buy from Apple)

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#23 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 06:36 AM

View PostCougar, on 02 February 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Apple should seriously give the US the same free 2-year warranty the EU enjoys by law.
Well, they don't respect this law. Here's Apple's French warranty page. Even if you don't understand the language, 1 is still 1: "Garantie limitée d'un (1) an d'Apple - (FRANCE)".
A friend of mine has a Mac Mini whose graphics chip died, a common issue on the model he has. The Mac was one month out of warranty (the 12 months one). Apple refused to repair for free. Some people manage to get them moving by threatening to get a lawyer involved and pointing to the 24 months EU warranty, but it takes some effort and my friend wasn't willing to battle Apple: he bought a PC instead and Apple lost a customer...

Apple has moved to 24 months warranty only in a few EU countries for now, only because of threats from these governments.

#24 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 06:57 AM

EU countries have a 2 year guarantee, not a 2 year warranty, which is different. For instance, in Denmark we have 6 months of warranty on all products as per danish law, and then 18 months of guarantee after that. Apple provides 1 year of warranty (Plus 12 months of guarantee), which in that case is actually better, as there are different regulations on who has to prove that the product is flawed when it breaks, depending on wether the product is under warranty or the EU guarantee.
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#25 AussieMacGamer

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:22 AM

View PostCamper-Hunter, on 03 February 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

A friend of mine has a Mac Mini whose graphics chip died, a common issue on the model he has.

The outcome could be the same in Australia, it all comes down to what we would define as a "major failure" If there was an issue but the computer by and large still functioned then consumer rights would not protect the customer. If the computer failed to boot, then that's a different story.

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#26 macdude22

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:24 AM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 02 February 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

My takeaway is, AppleCare isn't a classic helpdesk where everyone shares your case history and moves the ball forward. They could all see the history, they just didn't care. None of them respected the previous case workers' conclusions or promises.


I think the key takeaway here is it's just as easy to get a company representative that toes the line, does the minimum required. I guarantee you at my organization 80% of people in IT our user population get in touch with fall into this category. Don't care. Run the script. Job done. If you managed to make it through the quagmire to me I'll usually go out of my way to get your problem fixed. Problem is fixing end user problems is not my job and over the past couple years I've garnered a population of people that have figured out how to get in touch with me directly and try to bypass the whole support system. Management's takeaway is "oh we just need to unlist you number in the directory so they can't get a hold of you". The real takeaway should be to fix the systematic problems with our support structure. "Shrug", this is why I can't ever go into management. The management cartel would put a hit out on me for talking sense.
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#27 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:39 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 03 February 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

I think the key takeaway here is it's just as easy to get a company representative that toes the line, does the minimum required. I guarantee you at my organization 80% of people in IT our user population get in touch with fall into this category. Don't care. Run the script. Job done. If you managed to make it through the quagmire to me I'll usually go out of my way to get your problem fixed. Problem is fixing end user problems is not my job and over the past couple years I've garnered a population of people that have figured out how to get in touch with me directly and try to bypass the whole support system. Management's takeaway is "oh we just need to unlist you number in the directory so they can't get a hold of you". The real takeaway should be to fix the systematic problems with our support structure. "Shrug", this is why I can't ever go into management. The management cartel would put a hit out on me for talking sense.

and that was the last we heard from macdude22. His body was found in a dumpster behind the Hospital the next day with the words "get rekt by management" scrawled across his chest. A million end users cried out in terror as their hero had been vanquished.
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#28 Frigidman™

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:34 AM

I've got 4 MBP's now:

The first one I had, had a melting GPU which they replaced the whole motherboard on due to a recall. Its been going strong without errors since, but it still runs 10.3 (its a PPC MBP).

Second one I had, had an ever expanding battery that was about the explode. Apple would not give me a new battery, I had to buy a new one. Also, recently after installing 10.9 on it, the OS freezes right after wake if I have wi-fi disabled. Seems fine if I leave wi-fi ON 24/7. All firmware/software up to date, and all smc/pram zapped. 10.9 just doesnt like that MBP, or vice versa.

Third one used to have an issue with dying DURING sleep (it would never wake up). However oddly that issue has vanished on its own, and I didn't do anything. Not like a system update fixed it, because 10.6.8 hasnt had an update for years. Although, it still has an odd situation where an internal service 'dies' after 30-40 'active' hours on a single boot, give or take, causing all drag-operations to either not happen, or be weird about it. Like in BBedit trying to drag a block of text, it will pop a dialog saying 'could not complete the operation' with a generic error number which yields no good results in google.

Fourth one is new, I've not used it other than launching it... but it lands in SneakySnake's recall list he linked too. So I am going to just take it in and let them run a diagnostic just to see if it acts up or not. They dont charge for a diagnostic, right? They aren't like real doctors, right? Charge you for zero results.

Anyhow, I've had mixed results with Apple support. And mixed results with Apple products. And a spiraling downhill trend with Apple OS's.

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#29 macdude22

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 10:14 AM

I have a couple users with a Wake From Sleep issue that I can't isolate. The hardware checks out, they have the SAME software configuration as dozens of other devices. All the SMC resets in the world doesn't resolve. I've opened enterprise tickets with apple trying to track down a software cause but they were never able to ascertain a cause (and the issue isn't persistent so it was hard to replicate on the fly when the engineer would call). I'm convinced they have some sort of latent hardware issue but in this situation I was unable to cajole Apple into authorizing parts. Honestly if I was on the other end I probably wouldn't either.

Running VST on listed machine should be free o charge at the genius o bars.
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#30 Frigidman™

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 10:33 AM

Yeah, it took me a couple weeks to figure out that 10.9 on the MBP3,1 freeze issue. I mean, it was terrible, the moment it wakes up, it gives the login prompt, and then within 5-15 seconds from that moment, it would just completely freeze. No console logs, no dump, no panic or auto-restart. The only way to clear it was to hard shut down, and reboot, and choose 'no' on re-opening anything (stupid 10.9 feature anyways).

After many THOUSANDS of google results about 'sleep and freeze' (my god theres all kinds of issues!), I ran across an unrelated thread and someone had mentioned that their wi-fi was causing a crash when it was off. So, since nothing else I tried worked, I turned ON wi-fi and did a few dozen sleep/auto-sleep/lid closes and wake events over a few days, and not a single freeze. Then the moment I turn OFF wi-fi, close the lid, let it sit for 2 minutes, re-open the lid... freeze. And after about a dozen hard reboots and tests, I was convinced, it was the wi-fi.

Now... this is an older MBP3,1... I never left wi-fi ON on it, because I saw no need to broadcast to the world that its running. Also, this laptop is now, what, 8 years old? and never ever had freezing issues until I installed 10.9 LOL!

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#31 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 12:46 PM

View PostFrigidman™, on 03 February 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

Yeah, it took me a couple weeks to figure out that 10.9 on the MBP3,1 freeze issue. I mean, it was terrible, the moment it wakes up, it gives the login prompt, and then within 5-15 seconds from that moment, it would just completely freeze. No console logs, no dump, no panic or auto-restart. The only way to clear it was to hard shut down, and reboot, and choose 'no' on re-opening anything (stupid 10.9 feature anyways).

After many THOUSANDS of google results about 'sleep and freeze' (my god theres all kinds of issues!), I ran across an unrelated thread and someone had mentioned that their wi-fi was causing a crash when it was off. So, since nothing else I tried worked, I turned ON wi-fi and did a few dozen sleep/auto-sleep/lid closes and wake events over a few days, and not a single freeze. Then the moment I turn OFF wi-fi, close the lid, let it sit for 2 minutes, re-open the lid... freeze. And after about a dozen hard reboots and tests, I was convinced, it was the wi-fi.

Now... this is an older MBP3,1... I never left wi-fi ON on it, because I saw no need to broadcast to the world that its running. Also, this laptop is now, what, 8 years old? and never ever had freezing issues until I installed 10.9 LOL!

I'm sorry but what we have here is a clear case of user error.

You are supposed to know to keep your wifi on at all times the way Apple intended it to be. If you had simply gone with the flow and done what you should then you would not have had this problem. In fact, I bet there was no QA test case for this because well, it's a connected world and you are supposed to be connected.

Next time you upgrade, take the defaults and do what setup tells you to do. The days of making your own decisions about how your computer is used and operated are over my friend a long time ago.

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#32 Frigidman™

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 12:49 PM

lol.

"We put the option to kill yourself in there, so you felt like you had a choice. It doesn't mean you should actually use it."

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#33 Matt Diamond

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:30 PM

View PostAussieMacGamer, on 03 February 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

I really account for problems in customer service due to varying degrees of competence, especially Applecare. The extent to which the agents differ in competency is massive, and how your issue will be resolved largely depends on who answers the phone.
True. But the weird thing in my case was that you'd think that an incompetent or lazy or just plain average support person would want to lean on the work of everyone who came previously. Instead, they all seemed determined to crack the mystery of the kernel panic from scratch. It felt like they expected a bonus if they could prove it was a customer-side problem. Each one promised that after 3 attempts to fix the problem they'd call it a lemon and replace it, and none of them did so until I finally threw a hissy fit.

Quote

It all leads into my second point, competence is key, but the customer also needs to know how to help. Some customers will always have unrealistic expecations or desire to achieve a goal that wouldn't normally be possible. But if you are assertive in a way that isn't vindictive, it will always lead you to a successful outcome.
I appreciate that you mean well by this comment, and I agree with it in general, but it feels like you are suggesting that I made this particular problem worse somehow. I am not a vindictive person, I never take out frustrations on anyone I deal with on the phone, because I've been on the other end. I also happen to be a decent troubleshooter. I spent many more hours trying to troubleshoot and isolate the problem than Apple did.

If anything I was too reasonable with them. For example the second tech suggested that I try a different wifi router. Now IMHO it's not acceptable for a router that works fine with other devices to cause a Mac to kernel panic; therefore I didn't think the result of the test would prove that the iMac was working properly. But I was determined to be patient and let the process play out.

Like I said, I agree with you in theory but I felt the need to defend myself. :-)
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#34 Cougar

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:34 AM

Well, I went to the Apple Store today and found out that yes, my iPhone's battery of 15 months is indeed defective, and they wanted $79 to replace it. frak that. I bought a replacement kit from iFixit for half the price instead. Hopefully I won't break my iPhone.

Incidentally, the genius ran the exact same diagnostic as you can run at Apple.com/support, only he could actually look at the data...I wish Apple would let you access that stuff. Would have saved me a trip.

#35 Frigidman™

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:34 AM

View PostCougar, on 08 February 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

Incidentally, the genius ran the exact same diagnostic as you can run at Apple.com/support, only he could actually look at the data...I wish Apple would let you access that stuff. Would have saved me a trip.

Apple just thinks everyone using apple products are idiots, there are no more power users out there, so why cater to them! ;)

But yes, it would be so nice if you could view that data, even after like agreeing to some agreement that you understand the data is technical blah blah you are not an idiot yaddayaa.

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#36 Matt Diamond

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:04 PM

Quote

even after agreeing to some agreement that you understand the data is technical blah blah you are not an idiot yaddayaa.

I could sign one that says "I understand the data is technical." That would have to suffice.
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#37 macdude22

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:39 PM

Not going to happen. They have recently started removing extensive viewable data from the diagnostic tools. AST2 Cloud Diagnostics just kind of runs on new macs with a lone progress bar then spits out a diagnosis in the console. AST1 OS and EFI tests would display real time information about the various tests being run (voltage, memory, etc...). Its really annoying because under AST1 if you suspected drive or memory problems you could individually select those tests but now it's all or nothing.
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#38 Frigidman™

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:55 PM

Gone be the days of techtools :(

I remember having lots of various power-user apps I would run to diagnose and keep an eye on all the inner workings of Mac OS. I had high hopes when Mac OS moved to a unix architecture, that the power user stuff would get stronger. Not weak and pathetic because apple is putting soft padding on every edge to protect adults from hurting themselves.

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#39 the Battle Cat

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 04:08 PM

I'm surprised Apple doesn't issue us all special olympics bike helmets.
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#40 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 08:32 AM

All you shade tree grease monkeys just want to flip open your Chilton's manuals that never have the right carb pic for your vehicle and take stuff apart. Go outside for a change and rip your car apart. Don't worry about the extra nuts and bolts, etc. left over afterward. The car will be fine without them. Here you go:

http://www.chilton.cengage.com

You are not supposed to be messing around with your Apple computer. So just quit it!

Apple stuff is designed to not be user serviceable on purpose to protect you from yourself. You should be grateful. Now, just let them help you and stop being so damned difficult.
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