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Apple does more damage to Macs than anything


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#41 Irishman

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 06:26 PM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 15 May 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

I am annoyed that Apple refuses to make a tricked out desktop gaming rig with a cool case that has flaming apples on the sides and a special version of OS X where NOTHING is flat. I'd like this system to be a small tower but big enough to accommodate a full sized GPU card. The system should feature easy access for upgrades and repairs. The system specs should feature top end components selected with gaming in mind. It should come with 3 years of AppleCare standard. I would prefer it to be priced just slightly over the Mac Mini line. Apple has more money than they know what to do with. It is time that they gave back to the community, the neglected gaming community in particular.

I am a reasonable man. I only want what is fair.

I really can't disagree with you here. Apple! Please! Don't make us Hackintosh!!!!

View Postipickert55, on 15 May 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Actual complaint about apple incoming...

Is it just me, or is gaming under Yosemite a lot worse than Mavericks? I can't get 60fps in ANY game, despite having a 3GB graphics card... on Mavericks though, things just seemed a lot smoother in terms of fps.

Had you benchmarked your performance before and after Yosemite? If not, then shaddup! ;P

If yes, post your numbers pre and post, along with anything else about your system that's changed.

It might help us isolate your problem. I have noticed no worsening of performance from Mavs to Yose.

View Postmacdude22, on 15 May 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

I have 2 cubes in storage lol.

I'd pay the premium I just want the damn option. Give me a Mac Mini Pro that can take a drive or two and a decent size card. Charge me the apple tax for the card, I don't care, just give me the option.

What would that even look like, and how much would you pay for it??

View PostFrost, on 16 May 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Oh God, iTunes 12.

Normally I don't advocate people being shot over UI decisions, but...

Apple's gotten weird with the things they upgrade and spend money to retool.

iPod Touch? Nope.

Macbook? Sure. Don't get me wrong. I'm just as glad as everyone that the MagSafe 2 connector abomination is gone. But, really? Now? This had to happen now?

iPod nano? Nope.

Mac Pro? Nope.

iPhone? Yes. Cha-ching!!

Retina iMac? Nope.

iPad? Of course.

AppleTV? Don't even ask.

iTunes? No way in Hell!

I'm wondering - does Apple acknowledge internally just how bad iTunes is? They have to, right? Especially on non-Apple hardware? They must be doing some crazy-genius-level planning over multiple years, multiple technologies that are guiding their production choices.

We know Tim Cook is a supply chain genius...mwahahaha!!

Hmmm, starting with the Apple Watch, we're seeing a compressed series of differing products using the same technologies - (Force Touch, I'm looking at you!) It's rolling out on the Apple Watch and the new Macbook first. If you haven't tried it out yet, you should. It feels indistinguishable from the old mechanical clicker in the trackpad. The only way I could tell the difference is the MBA next to it in the store made a clicking sound, whereas the Force Touch click doesn't. So, this has got to be a soft launch of FT, right? If it does well, then it will certainly show up on the next iPad and iPhone revisions, right? From there, FT's on all the new Apple laptops.

Looking at other Apple technologies and devices in the same way, what would need to happen for Apple to design iTunes from the ground up? To make people love it again? Beats incorporation? Is Beats on the Mac going to be a separate music player? A separate tab within iTunes? We know that Beats on iDevices up until now has been a separate player app. But if it continues to exist as JUST a separate app that people CAN ignore (like Apple's Podcast app), then people WILL ignore it.

I don't see Apple treating Beats like the Podcast App, as they spent way too much for people to ignore it (biggest single acquisition, remember?). What if Beats becomes a new iTunes replacement, complete with app redesign and store integration? They'd be working on new software for everything on which it runs - Watch, iPhone, iPad, iPod, laptops, desktops, ATVs. What if everything that was iTunes (including all the bad experiences users have had with it) becomes Beats from the ground up? It's even a similar naming convention, and you're only going from tunes to beats. The message is the same. This might give Apple the ability to start over in music.

If it works, it might be worth the money.
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#42 Irishman

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 07:12 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 22 May 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

The Battlecat and I have had some drunken discussions on this (2008 Mac Pros being relevant to our interests). I am of the opinion there are a number of games that for reasons unknown to me run absolutely terrible under an Nvidia Card on OS X. Borderlands 2 being one of them. I have a GTX 680, SSDs, 14GB Ram in mine. Even on my MBP I can get the same sometimes better performance by disabling the 650m when in OS X. Bioshock Infinite was passable after 10.9.2 but still way better under windows. I'm not sure if this is an Open GL thing that could be resolved if apple updated or what. I know on TBCs suggestion I threw my old 4870 back in my Mac Pro for a bit and BL2 runs better with that than with the 680.

TW2 and Dead Island both are essentially unplayable on OS X. Lowest settings (at my monitor native 1680x1050) and we are talking maybe occasionally double digit FPS, I don't think ever saw either hit 20. Reboot to windows you can max both of these to the hilt.

Dirt 3 and Tomb Raider both run at top settings, and look great. Divinity Original Sin. Great

I don't think a 980 will solve your issues with certain games. My suggestion, buy a cheap SSHD, throw windows on it, boot there when needed. Works great for me and I'll still get several years out of this thing I'm sure.

Borderlands 2 on my late 2012 iMac with 650M has always given me good performance. I can get close to 60FPS with the right settings. Borderlands TPS is even smoother.

Bioshock Infinite is also very playable on my Mac.

I don't think it's the capability of the nVidia GPU that's the source of your ills, or else I'd be experiencing it too.
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#43 Frigidman™

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 07:22 AM

Are any of the new OS X reaching the performance that 10.6.8 already had on the same hardware? I dunno bout you all, but it seems since 10.6.8 each OS X has been trying to fix the major hit to performance that 10.7 introduced.

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#44 macdude22

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:45 PM

View PostIrishman, on 24 May 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Borderlands 2 on my late 2012 iMac with 650M has always given me good performance. I can get close to 60FPS with the right settings. Borderlands TPS is even smoother.

Bioshock Infinite is also very playable on my Mac.

I don't think it's the capability of the nVidia GPU that's the source of your ills, or else I'd be experiencing it too.

The right settings under windows on the exact same hardware is maximum everything. It runs fine if I turn everything down, I didn't spend 2500 dollars on a laptop to run popsnizzle at minimum settings. Dropping in the years old 4870 on my Mac pro has better performance under OS X, combined with tBCs Nvidia experience I am 100% convinced there's defiantly something with Borderlands 2/TPS and Nvidia cards. If you don't know any better I'm sure it might seem great, but once you've experienced the buttery smooth maximum windows settings experience, its rough to turn every thing down so much just to get acceptable performance on the same hardware.
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#45 macdude22

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:58 PM

Yes I'm going all pcmasterace on lands here.
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#46 ipickert55

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 09:39 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 25 May 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Yes I'm going all pcmasterace on lands here.

I'm totally with you. It's unacceptable that OSX doesn't have the same performance as games in windows.
Maybe it really is all cocks in the end.

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#47 jeannot

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:13 AM

After reading about GPU drivers from "insider" people, I came to the conclusion that Apple isn't much to blame. GPU drivers are so complex. They have thousands of lines of procedural code just to try to guess what any particular game is trying to achieve so as to squeeze every possible fps. Some engineers suggest this complexity has become ridiculous, and can only be achieved on Windows (they can't justify the effort on other PC platforms) .
Hopefully, Vulcan will solve all that (since it's lower level). The best Apple could do for Mac gaming is support Vulcan, or allow support for it.

#48 jeannot

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 12:19 AM

View PostFrigidman™, on 25 May 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Are any of the new OS X reaching the performance that 10.6.8 already had on the same hardware? I dunno bout you all, but it seems since 10.6.8 each OS X has been trying to fix the major hit to performance that 10.7 introduced.
If depends on which area. OpenGL 3-4 certainly helped (and have even enabled) some games. UI speed, however, has not been restored to the 10.6 levels in my experience. I can certify it since I recently booted 10.6 on my Mac Pro, which usually runs 10.9. For one thing, they have introduced (I suppose with 10.7) a 2-3 frame delay when you drag any window. It lags behind the mouse pointer. There is no such lag in 10.6.
10.10 is worse in terms of fluidity.

#49 macdude22

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 07:28 AM

View Postipickert55, on 25 May 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

I'm totally with you. It's unacceptable that OSX doesn't have the same performance as games in windows.

I'm willing to concede some performance margin to optimization/platform differences. I realize long gone are the days I can loom over my DOS using friends with all my high res 640x480 games vs. their 320x240 but some of these games on the same hardware require halving the settings or more just to get acceptable performance under OS X. I'm not willing to concede a 50% hit just because Apple wants to languish on 4 year old versions of OpenGL.
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#50 Frigidman™

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:52 AM

View Postjeannot, on 26 May 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

If depends on which area. OpenGL 3-4 certainly helped (and have even enabled) some games. UI speed, however, has not been restored to the 10.6 levels in my experience. I can certify it since I recently booted 10.6 on my Mac Pro, which usually runs 10.9. For one thing, they have introduced (I suppose with 10.7) a 2-3 frame delay when you drag any window. It lags behind the mouse pointer. There is no such lag in 10.6.
10.10 is worse in terms of fluidity.

Gah. Considering the most I do on my Mac now is 'work' (which is pretty much 99% UI handling)... uggggh. Guess I'll be stickin with 10.6 for a bit longer still! Haha.

PS: yeah, I've pretty much all of given up doing any gaming on my Mac. I got super spoiled by how fluid and nice games are under my PC build (which is all IT does... I dont dare try to WORK under windows).

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#51 jgwdoc

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:06 AM

View PostFrigidman™, on 26 May 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Gah. Considering the most I do on my Mac now is 'work' (which is pretty much 99% UI handling)... uggggh. Guess I'll be stickin with 10.6 for a bit longer still! Haha.

I'm of your mindset as well, but have you started to notice that lots of websites are becoming unhappy with the Safari version running under 10.6.8? I'm afraid I'm going to be pushed to upgrade by browser incompatabilities. Not sure if Mozilla is any better or if software limitations will force me to buy a new machine.
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#52 Frigidman™

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:26 PM

View Postjgwdoc, on 26 May 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

I'm of your mindset as well, but have you started to notice that lots of websites are becoming unhappy with the Safari version running under 10.6.8? I'm afraid I'm going to be pushed to upgrade by browser incompatabilities. Not sure if Mozilla is any better or if software limitations will force me to buy a new machine.

Most all websites work fine with the 10.6.8 safari (even when they complain). Google is exceptionally fraktastic with their browser detection. They basically dont want to officially give support to the older browser, even though the older browser seems to work just fine with all their 'new' stuff.

A thing I do is make safari run as a 10.8 safari ;) Its found in the Develop -> User Agent menu, and selecting Safari 6.1.6 Mac makes google shutup (and most every website). I do this because I still prefer to use safari with google images, as snagging images is cleaner/quicker/easier than how Chrome does it with its stupid bottom bar, and 'download only' and whatnot, whereas my safari lets me simply "Copy Image" to clipboard, which I can then just paste into photoshop or gimp n stuff. However I don't discount Chrome, as I use it as my #1 development test platform for pages, as its built in inspector and console is FAR better than the hackish one Safari is for 10.6.8.

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#53 Irishman

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 07:41 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 25 May 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

The right settings under windows on the exact same hardware is maximum everything. It runs fine if I turn everything down, I didn't spend 2500 dollars on a laptop to run popsnizzle at minimum settings. Dropping in the years old 4870 on my Mac pro has better performance under OS X, combined with tBCs Nvidia experience I am 100% convinced there's defiantly something with Borderlands 2/TPS and Nvidia cards. If you don't know any better I'm sure it might seem great, but once you've experienced the buttery smooth maximum windows settings experience, its rough to turn every thing down so much just to get acceptable performance on the same hardware.

Not rough. Just different priorities.
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#54 jgwdoc

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 09:20 PM

View PostFrigidman™, on 26 May 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Most all websites work fine with the 10.6.8 safari (even when they complain). Google is exceptionally fraktastic with their browser detection. They basically dont want to officially give support to the older browser, even though the older browser seems to work just fine with all their 'new' stuff.

A thing I do is make safari run as a 10.8 safari ;) Its found in the Develop -> User Agent menu, and selecting Safari 6.1.6 Mac makes google shutup (and most every website). I do this because I still prefer to use safari with google images, as snagging images is cleaner/quicker/easier than how Chrome does it with its stupid bottom bar, and 'download only' and whatnot, whereas my safari lets me simply "Copy Image" to clipboard, which I can then just paste into photoshop or gimp n stuff. However I don't discount Chrome, as I use it as my #1 development test platform for pages, as its built in inspector and console is FAR better than the hackish one Safari is for 10.6.8.

Thanks. That was very helpful. My 2006 and 2007 MacPros still work fine, and I have no desire to be forced into buying something new merely because of browser nonsense. When I try to configure one of the new MacPros into a decent build it seems to run upwards of 5K. Crazy.
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#55 Matt Diamond

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:39 AM

Seems like the most effective gaming upgrade I could buy for my Mac would be a copy of Windows to Bootcamp with. :-(

Edit: That may have come across as a naive statement, as its always been true to some extent. But I've always been willing to put up with less performance and higher machine cost to avoid having to boot to Windows for any reason. It just seems particularly bad now. The lack of an affordable, upgradeable Mac Pro option is killing me.

Taking the long view: we've been here before. Gaming on Mac has always had its ups and downs. It's just weird to see the selection of Mac games at its peak even as the future prospects for decent native Mac graphics performance dim. It's also possible I'm letting my own personal pet peeve (no Pro tower) cloud my views. Maybe I just need to get iMacs from now on, and upgrade the whole machine every 3 years.
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#56 Nickburger

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 06:24 AM

The current wealth of great low spec Mac games keeps me from seriously considering Bootcamp. My 2011 MB Pro is still taking good care of my gaming needs. Not having the Witcher 3 is :crying: but such is life.

That said, my uncle and I were thinking it would be fun to put together a juiced up hackintosh this summer but reading you guys I am starting to think we should call it off until something happens on Vulkan...

#57 Jan

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:18 AM

I'll do some research in the next few days and try to install SteamOS on my new Retro Mac Pro to collect some data on OpenGL performance in OS X vs. Debian. It seems like NVidia cards are running pretty well on Linux, while AMD drivers are still a nightmare. Hopefully Vulkan will shake up the PC gaming landscape. To be quite honest, I don't want to re-boot in Windows at all. Gimme some good 'ole *nix with decent performance and I'm a happy camper.
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#58 macdude22

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:44 AM

View PostJan, on 27 May 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

I'll do some research in the next few days and try to install SteamOS on my new Retro Mac Pro to collect some data on OpenGL performance in OS X vs. Debian. It seems like NVidia cards are running pretty well on Linux, while AMD drivers are still a nightmare. Hopefully Vulkan will shake up the PC gaming landscape. To be quite honest, I don't want to re-boot in Windows at all. Gimme some good 'ole *nix with decent performance and I'm a happy camper.

I don't want to reboot either but if I'm going to get 50% or greater performance on the same hardware, I'll reboot to wandows while I go drain the lizard.
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#59 Matt Diamond

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 11:02 AM

After taking a deep breath and calming the eff down..

Still annoyed at Apple, but trying to keep it in perspective. Yes, I would consider rebooting for a AAA title that I play for long uninterrupted stretches, IF the Mac version doesn't run well on my machine. This is a new stance for me. But as Nickburger said, many games don't need that horsepower. And I certainly don't have time to play many games-- it would take a major event like a Portal 3 to force my hand. So my "bold new stance" will probably make no difference in practice.
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#60 mattw

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:31 PM

It sounds like I might be in a minority here but I'm actually pretty happy with Yosemite since 10.0.2 fixed the "wake every couple of hours from sleep" bug with discoveryd on my 09 Mac Pro.  

I have no doubt I'd get even better gaming performance if I was prepared to buy and maintain Windows but performance in OS X is normally quite fluid and acceptable even if it may not set any records and this is even at 1440p but I am on a Radeon 7950 and I'm guessing the OS X drivers aren't quite as bad. In fact the worst GPU bug I've found seem to effect Safari and not any games.

I'm also stuck with where to go next with a hardware upgrade as it's clear the option of GPU upgrades during ownership look to be out across all the Mac range now so you are stuck with whatever the best CTO option is at the time.

Moving to a regular upgrade cycle (say 3 or 4 years) on an iMac is going to be far less cost effective even taking into account resale value and you have the hassle of software activations/deactivations and selling on the older machine more often as well.

The trouble is desktops in general are far less popular than portables these days so market for a GPU upgradable Mac that runs games well is becoming a tiny niche.
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