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How exactly does a 144hz LCD work out?


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#41 Tetsuya

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:42 AM

Have you ever thought that perhaps the issue is something other than the monitor?  Bad cable or something?  I've never experienced anything like what you're talking about with my personal ASUS or any of the various models we have for the business (and we're talking, at this point, 50 monitors... including 12 brand new VX238H's that are all working fine).

#42 Cougar

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:00 AM

View Postbobbob, on 15 May 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:


My $180 23" Dell IPS (1080p60) seems fine. If I move a window too fast it's got a slight motion blur, but you'd only fix that with a faster LCD whether it's IPS or not. Just dragging a window to move it (without flinging it), and the text is sharp.

Yeah, I've never had a problem with motion blur with my IPS dell (e-IPS, actually). I have  a  2211h  with a response rate of 8ms and never had an issue  with games or anything else. Sticking with it until I can get a retina for $300 or less (and I'll gladly downgrade
to TN if I need to. Cheap IPS Retinas are probably eons away. )

#43 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 08:04 AM

View Postbobbob, on 15 May 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

That kind of sounds like the overdrive thing some displays do to keep the latency down. Turn off the scaler chip with a game mode or whatever arcane method the OSD calls for, plus whatever option they've got for turning off overdrive.

EDIT: The TraceFree thing is what Asus calls overdrive, so turn that off. Asus' game mode also still goes through their 'splendid' scaler chip crap, so maybe turn it to some other mode (sRGB?). And you'll want to calibrate it. Eco mode limits the grey levels, so turn that off too if you hate crush. ASCR - Asus smart contrast ratio - is where it turns the backlight down to get lower black levels. I find my Dell has a slight delay when it does this, plus it ramps up and down as you switch windows or content and it's slightly disconcerting when the backlight is so very bright and blinks on or off as content changes, so I just leave my Dell's version off.

Sadly you cannot turn off anything fully on this one.

TraceFree at "0" still shows the issue in full bore. However TraceFree at "100" makes it so pronounced it burns the dotty dots in your eyes ;) TraceFree existed on the VS247H-P, and that monitor didn't show any amount of this odd distortion. So I'm not sure its that... I think its how they tried to make a '1ms' monitor, by fudging how the frequency or signal is read from a computer... by doing like some sort of double interlacing or some nutpopsnizzle.

The sRGB setting (both on this monitor and the VS) is absolute crap. It disables changing any other settings if you select it (forcing you to change things from the GPU control panel), however it starts with a completely off calibration that even major changes in the GPU control panel won't fix. Especially when it makes the 'black level' about a 30% gray!

Their "Splendid" is garbage from what I've seen between both monitors, and also varied wildly between the two. On the VS, the "Game Mode" setting looked decent enough with some adjustments to brightness, contrast, sharpness, and saturation. However the same mode on the VX was this washed out ugly image akin to the days of a fully burned over CRT that had sat in the sun for a year solid.

:(

I looked up my old monitor. Its a ViewSonic X Series VX1962wm Black 19" 5ms, 2ms (GTG) Widescreen LCD Monitor 300 cd/m2 DC 6000:1(1000:1).

It also has a "speedy" setting where if turned to high, causes nasty inverse ghosting of moving objects, but nothing like I see with the new monitor and those 'cut along the dotted line' distortions.

Looks like ViewSonic have still been developing their VX line, and I may just buy a new one (bigger size though, I want to UPgrade afterall).

I mean, thats the whole point of this search. Is to UPGRADE. If I buy a monitor (like this ASUS VX) and its a downgrade... why the hell should I 'accept it' ? Screw that, its going back. Once I find a monitor that is actually a positive direction in the UP, then I'll keep it.

View PostTetsuya, on 16 May 2014 - 01:42 AM, said:

Have you ever thought that perhaps the issue is something other than the monitor?  Bad cable or something?  I've never experienced anything like what you're talking about with my personal ASUS or any of the various models we have for the business (and we're talking, at this point, 50 monitors... including 12 brand new VX238H's that are all working fine).

Considering none of the "new" issues I see exist on the old ViewSonic sitting right next to them in mirror-mode or extended-mode, and since I have tried different cables each time... I would be inclined to say, nope. The asus monitor is trash.

-Fm [1oM7]
"I'm not incorruptible, I am so corrupt nothing you can offer me is tempting." - Alfred Bester


#44 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:43 AM

I got an email from ASUS, and all they say is "Sorry you are having troubles... please try these generic steps that anyone with an ounce of technical know-how would have already done before emailing for tech support...".

So, to humor them, I did all their things all over again. But that didn't help anything.

I did discover how to get darker blacks out of the washed out mess. But its kludgey and doesn't actually work in games. Nvidia's control panel has a digital vibrance setting that if you 'touch it' all the colors become darker and lighter appropriately, however it doesn't stick between restarts, and it is ignored when any game takes over the screen. Seems to be a bug in nvidias drivers with full RGB color gamut... and this VX monitor is simply retarded to understand what it's getting without a way to adjust on the monitor end. Which further enforces my stance that this VX monitor is more aimed towards Console gaming, and not to be used with a PC. I'm sure its ok with an AMD card, as AMD have always allowed their color settings to 'stick' even while in a game. But thats another rant for another time ;)

So if I stick with this VX monitor I get:

Rich colors on desktop, but bad straight-line distortion while moving anything on the desktop.
or
Washed out colors in games, but no distortions that are seen unless the game has some straight lines that move.

Conclusion: This monitor aint worth my time.

-Fm [1oM7]
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#45 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 10:37 AM

Amazingly after much fiddling with nvidia control panel and the OSD, I managed to get its colors and blacks wrangled in, even while in games. So much work to do something that should be achievable on the monitor... is simply amazing. Which means I will have to figure out how to achieve this with every driver update because nvidia resets most of those during driver updates. Greeaaaat.

Sadly, I have been unable to get rid of the buzzing dots issue on moving lines. I was playing Batman Asylum a bit to test out the 'rich darks' since that game has a lot... and noticed the buzzing dots on lines was even occurring on the round reticles for things like "grapple here" and "aiming batarang" interface elements. Was kind of distracting. I may be able to learn to live with it over time, but golly, its ugly to see when it happens.

Still trying to get a straight answer from ASUS if this is 'by design' or a 'bum unit'.

-Fm [1oM7]
"I'm not incorruptible, I am so corrupt nothing you can offer me is tempting." - Alfred Bester


#46 Tetsuya

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 10:59 AM

It cant be "by design".  I fired up all 12 VX238H's here at the workshop, plugged into gaming PCs (i5 3570K, GTX 660), and absolutely none of them displayed the behaviour you're talking about.

#47 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:29 PM

I don't mean to be "that guy", but I wouldn't complain about black levels on a budget monitor. You get what you pay for.
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#48 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:12 PM

And I don't want to be "that other guy" who tells you to take your black and white view (pun intended) and shove it ;) I know that "true blacks" dont exist anymore outside of CRT (even on $600+ IPS panels), but that has nothing to do with what an "Acceptable Level" is. Acceptable level != Pantone Black

I'm just saying, if my old TFT LCD monitor does this for black (camera shot of black image):

Attached File  monitor1.jpg   10.23K   4 downloads

And then the new LED-LCD monitor does this for black (camera shot of same black image):

Attached File  monitor2.jpg   9.17K   6 downloads

How can I not be justified in saying "wtf?" Oh this is both side by side so its easier to kinda compare:

Attached File  blackdiff.jpg   19.12K   4 downloads

To me an acceptable Black Level is, just that... an acceptable range. Anyhow, most LCD I try, I can get it to an acceptable level, WITHOUT touching anything software side. Usually when I have to go the software route, then something is off about the monitor's ability to naturally do levels. The VS model didn't need software tweaks to get its levels right. But this VX does. And the VX is more expensive.


Tetsuya:
its good to hear that all those VX238H you just got in dont do this. So far I've only seen a couple user reviews out there mention it, so it IS a reported problem with this monitor (not just me), but I'm not sure why. All of those people just returned the monitor and bought something else it seems by their reviews.

I'm going to go around the house and try plugging this into every working (and partially working) computer I have. See if its something isolated with the Nvidia 780 GTX or not. Maybe there is just a bad mojo between the gpu and this monitor. I don't know why it would be the HDMI input, since its all digital. Seems more like something in the monitor is over compensating or out of phase.

-Fm [1oM7]
"I'm not incorruptible, I am so corrupt nothing you can offer me is tempting." - Alfred Bester


#49 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 02:26 PM

---

And on more of a note I went to the MicroCenter today. Spent a lot of time looking at every monitor they had (my god they had a ton of them).

Visually I was impressed by the Dells, but they were all IPS as to be expected. Sadly they were kind of a mess when trying any gameplay with them. Lots of ghosting and motion blur.

They had a lot of ASUS monitors around. They all looked washed out and unimpressive. Typical 'out-of-the-box' settings on them. But I did fiddle with the OSD on some of the 24" sized ones, and was able to bring them all down to acceptable levels. Oddly they had a tag for the VX238H, but the actual unit was missing, and they had none for sale. So I couldn't test my dotting issue on it :P However on every other monitor they had, no dotting issue. So this has got to be an isolated issue or something.

I casually asked the group of sales reps all standing in a huddle "So... IPS for playing games on a PC?" ... and got a pretty big roar of laughter and hoohawing and hell nos. I figured as much ;) They then said theres really only two choices... budget 1-2ms monitors from ASUS, or that 144hz ASUS. They all agreed I should buy the 144hz ASUS on the spot, of course... since it was the most expensive monitor they had 'for games'. heh. I didn't bite. I need to resolve my issue with this VX (or return it) before bothering.

-Fm [1oM7]
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#50 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:02 PM

Update:
I don't think I need to bother plugging it into anything else after I first plugged it into my OLD MacBookPro DVI port (DVI to HDMI cable), and even on the mac desktop the windows show this ripple dotting effect on straight lines during movement. (oddly the Mac considered it as a "Television" and not a "Monitor" in Profiler).

*sigh*

Big question is, do I get a replacement of same model, or just say F-it and buy that 144hz that this topic was originally ABOUT ?!??!?! LOL!

-Fm [1oM7]
"I'm not incorruptible, I am so corrupt nothing you can offer me is tempting." - Alfred Bester


#51 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:40 PM

Well my Asus VG236H (Discontinued 120Hz monitor - replace by VG248) has pretty good colours, and obviously has very low latency. If I had to replace my monitor right now, I would probably replace it with the VG248QE (144 Hz Asus). I've used quite a few monitors over the years, from several different brands (Asus, Dell, Samsung, LG), and I like the colour on my current Asus the best, what I will say though, is that on my friends cheap asus the colours are HORRIBLE. Whenever I use his monitor I instantly try to calibrate it, but it always looks like the backlight is trying to force its way through the pixels - giving everything a nice white/grey tinge (even with brightness down around 20-40).

I can't speak to the actual tech levels of the screen, but all I can say is that I'm very happy with the black levels, responsiveness, and colour of my Asus VG236H. I did have to play around with the settings a bit in both the OS and on the monitor, but I do have it calibrated nice (for my eyes). Black levels is probably the number one thing I notice in a TV/monitor (I can't firetrucking stand it when it's a dark scene, and the monitor makes the night time shot in the movie a nice dark whitish grey).

I would take a picture to try and show you the black level of the monitor, but it's day time here and the monitor is glossy, so you'd just get a nice shot of my phone and face being reflected on a black foreground.
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#52 Frost

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 05:19 PM

View PostFrigidman™, on 16 May 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

And I don't want to be "that other guy" who tells you to take your black and white view (pun intended) and shove it ;) I know that "true blacks" dont exist anymore outside of CRT (even on $600+ IPS panels)
OLED does true blacks too... any thoughts on raising your monitor budget to $25,000? :P

Also, an off the wall idea you'll probably want to discount but that you might think about: a used, but good condition HP ZR30w. Excepting its newer cousin, the HP Z30i, it's the absolute best color and best blacks I've seen on an LCD, and it's got no OSD, no scaler, and is DVI/DisplayPort only so it is extremely fast and low input lag for an IPS panel (about slower-end TN speed). They were $1400 new, but I've seen used ones going in the $300-400 area regularly.

I tried one out in 2012 and my only gripe was it could be a bit faster for gaming (but still totally playable; it's faster than the current iMacs' displays), but holy God does it look amazing. It's also 16:10 2560x1600. I don't remember if you were the guy who likes 16:10 over 16:9 like me, but there's that as well.

EDIT: But it's only 60 Hz; forgot you were wanting to go 120+. Derp!
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#53 Frigidman™

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:24 PM

View PostFrost, on 16 May 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

EDIT: But it's only 60 Hz; forgot you were wanting to go 120+. Derp!

I was more curious about higher hz. I originally bought a monitor because it claimed to do 75hz... which I thought at native resolution. But it turned out to only do 75hz at a paltry 720p res! So that pissed me off on misleading advertising.

120hz would be overkill, but nice to have, so long as its not locked into only that and doesn't adequately do 60, 75, 90 as well for when some games simply bomb out on 120hz.

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#54 bobbob

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:37 PM

Just to mention it again, lightboost ones look like the best shot. Adaptive sync coming down the pipe next year, too.

#55 Frigidman™

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 09:41 AM

Well I tested the VX238H on:

MacBookPro 10.5.8, Intel onboard GPU, tested with DVI->HDMI cable.
Windows XP, AMD Opteron, Nvidia onboard 6150, tested with DVI->HDMI cable, and VGA cable.
Windows 7, Intel i7, Nvidia 780 GPU, tested with DVI->HDMI cable, and also HDMI->HDMI cable.
Windows 8, Intel i7, AMD 5870 GPU, tested with DVI->HDMI cable, and also HDMI->HDMI cable.

Cant test it on my latest MacBookPro because I need one of those retarded 'thunderbolt' adapters... which I just cannot bring myself to spending good money on.

Its definitely the monitor. This is about the best attempt I have on capturing the dottedness of movement thus far:

Attached File  bestattempt.jpg   177.25K   6 downloads

Also, in windows 8 I noticed the other issue much more pronounced due to all the solid colored tiles that Win8 does. Which is, in some colors, there is a very noticeable "every-other" vertical banding/ripple going on (mostly in greens to turq). This example image is a slight exaggeration of it, but it kinda shows it:

Attached File  ripple.jpg   99.02K   8 downloads

Visually its different, looks more like straight up and down lines that are every-other lighter, like this:

Attached File  ripple-mock.png   779bytes   4 downloads

Anyhow, I'm debating on what to buy next. Still considering everything everyone has said, but ultimately I have to decide.

View Postbobbob, on 16 May 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Just to mention it again, lightboost ones look like the best shot. Adaptive sync coming down the pipe next year, too.

That VG248QE is a lightboost ready. Its also G-SYNC ready (at an additional $200!!! lol). So forward thinking, it may be the best bet to 'attempt' gambling on. As thats all it is it seems with ASUS monitors, is a gamble =p which I've been getting raped by the house on so far.

Good site of information: http://www.blurbuste...120hz-monitors/

-Fm [1oM7]
"I'm not incorruptible, I am so corrupt nothing you can offer me is tempting." - Alfred Bester


#56 Frigidman™

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:32 AM

Did a little research, and ultimately came to this site: http://www.lagom.nl/...t/inversion.php Which best describes what they call "Pixel Inversion". Seems this monitor has serious trouble with motion for how its calibrated internally to handle pixel interlacing. In short, when there is motion, some pixels are getting ahead of others, and as such when a horizontal line changes position, part of the line is already in view on the monitor before the rest of it is. Thus causing what looks like a 'cut along the dotted lines' look.

It appears to be directly tied to "TraceFree" on this monitor, as turning that up to 100 makes the effect soooo bad. Sadly turning TraceFree to 0 does not eliminate it (or make it even acceptable). So I'm thinking this unit is badly calibrated on that feature making 0 what 100 is normally, and 100 is just 200. Or something.

-Fm [1oM7]
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#57 Frost

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 02:46 PM

My cuz had the VG278H a while back and it performed really well for him and didn't have any odd little problems like that.

I will say I thought the color was pretty terrible, however.
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When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#58 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:10 PM

View PostFrost, on 18 May 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

My cuz had the VG278H a while back and it performed really well for him and didn't have any odd little problems like that.

I will say I thought the color was pretty terrible, however.

He probably has to calibrate it. I find that most people (90%+ of 'average' knowledge computer users) don't give a rip about proper colour calibration. At my friend's place his screen nearly makes my eyes bleed with its horrible black levels and colours, but after I adjusted it to somewhat better levels he said he simply could not see any difference.
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#59 Frigidman™

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 08:00 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 18 May 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

He probably has to calibrate it. I find that most people (90%+ of 'average' knowledge computer users) don't give a rip about proper colour calibration. At my friend's place his screen nearly makes my eyes bleed with its horrible black levels and colours, but after I adjusted it to somewhat better levels he said he simply could not see any difference.

Yeah, I've noticed this too when visiting other people. My relatives can tend to not know... I even had my father running his HDTV in 'stretched 4:3' mode and didnt seem to think it was funny looking (?!?!).

I just got an email from ASUS, they confirmed that is most likely a hardware issue in the monitor and I should return it. Well, at least they admitted it. Makes me feel a bit better. After a weekend of fussing with it, the color levels ARE pretty decent (blacks are still a bit more gray than I prefer), so if I had to live with this monitor, I could. I ran through all the gradient test patterns and no real banding, and no one color looking like barf or skewed in the wrong direction. But clearly the monitor got out of calibration on its 'interweaving' heh.

I'll place the order for that 144hz VG248QE. Try my luck with that one ;)

-Fm [1oM7]
"I'm not incorruptible, I am so corrupt nothing you can offer me is tempting." - Alfred Bester


#60 Frost

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 11:47 PM

I think that's the one you can get a g-sync mod for later on down the line if you want too.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.