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All New Mac Pro Available Starting Tomorrow(19/12-2013)

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#41 bobbob

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 19 December 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

The 290X, real-world, isn't doing as well as the golden samples sent out to review sites
The thing clocks itself as high as it can to hit its TDP and max out performance, so any variance is because some chips respond better. Same as a Geforce with a fixed clock, except that unless overclocked the 'golden' Geforce would be stunted. The cards have an uber fan mode so that their autoclocking can ramp up to the limit with the higher fan speed, so you can pretty much minimize the variance. AMD is looking at a revised BIOS to increase the fan speed a bit to reduce the variance permanently, and the OEM's are also in the process of making their non-reference cards which should have better cooling and run nearer to each chip's limit without the fan noise. These floating clocks are the future, so complaining about variance isn't going to get you anywhere.

Quote

As you go down the line, at pretty much every price point, nVidia is matching or beating price/performance on the AMD parts
Techreport's 99%ile frame times are a better measure because sometimes tests will have large latency spikes on some cards, such as the 760. Look at the 'time spent beyond 16.7ms' graphs of each individual test in that Techreport review. In Grid 2, one of the worst, the 760 was lagged out for 2 whole seconds while the 280x was lagged for 4 frames total at 60hz. The 280x and 760 are in wholly different weight classes.

#42 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 07:35 PM

It is a lot smaller then I thought, way smaller then a custom build of the same power. Looks smaller then the old Cube

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#43 The Liberator

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 21 December 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

It is a lot smaller then I thought, way smaller then a custom build of the same power. Looks smaller then the old Cube

Posted Image
Geez, that thing really IS tiny, isn't it? Then again, when you are trying to connect four different externals just to get the storage space you need, I guess it makes sense. ;)

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#44 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostThe Liberator, on 21 December 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

four different externals just to get the storage space you need,
This image has some relevance...

Posted Image
But yeah, I'm impressed by how much smaller the unit is compared to the old Mac Pro. Also some of the stuff is redundant as you don't need an Apple DVD drive if you have the Blu-Ray drive that's underneath it. As you can see from the logos it can do DVDs too.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

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Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

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#45 Frost

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:58 AM

^ Heh! That pretty much sums it up.

Although perhaps it will stack well with the Echo 15 Pro and a Drobo or similar RAID setup. Be a weird looking tower, but at least the number of connected devices is only 2 to cover the vast majority of ports, an optical, and 5+ drives.
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When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#46 The Liberator

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:05 AM

Yeah, I agree with you two about the above image.

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#47 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 07:25 AM

I would surely put all my external drives beneath the table, and only have the can sitting on the table.  It will be interesting to see how manufacturers adapt their designs for external drives now, seeing how the design has changed so drastically.
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#48 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 07:34 AM

Well, yeah.. Even with my current system the audio system (surround sound A/V receiver) has lots of cables and I have an external drive, adaptors for controllers, IR adaptor because Apple did away with the internal one in the iMac, and other things like a phone, lamp, etc. at my setup but with creative cable management and furniture it's all wrangled and I my area looks tidy. There's no reason why one couldn't do the same with the new Mac Pro.

Many people have created a mess of a setup with just about any kind of computer.

Still that image above is a pretty good satire'ish illustration of the difference between the two in terms of what needs to be hooked up externally vs before. Although on the other hand with the old Mac Pros many pro audio devices\interfaces\production\MIDI where external so there's not much change to that. Sure you could get an internal 3rd party sound card but not everything could be put inside the tower.

It's just a simple fact that the more you hook up externally the more of a mess you make unless you use good cable management. But even then the mess is channeled not eliminated. :)
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

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Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#49 mattw

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:56 AM

I'm not yet 100% convinced with the new design but some of the bits in that picture are an exaggeration as the Apogee Duet would be external anyway and not many folks need two optical drives so it is unlikely you would get a DVD drive and a bluray.

Apart from waiting to see what happens with CPU and GPU aftermarket options (i.e. none, upgrade kits from Apple or third parties offering products) the key thing is what you do about mass storage.

For some USB 3 drives are OK although you will likely have several power adaptors to consider, for others that are sharing data across several machines a NAS makes more sense if the performance/Gigabit Ethernet is not a bottleneck. And when you need performance beyond a single drive a Thunderbolt RAID will be better suited.

The biggest issue is if you want multiple single disks and the best possible speed. This was possible at very little cost on the old model using the built in SATA controllers and cheap eSATA cards.
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#50 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:55 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure that gigabit Ethernet is faster then USB 3.
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#51 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:30 PM

Sneaky Snake.. you're wrong.

USB3 is supposed to be 5Gbit/s theoretical... eSata is supposed to be 3Gbit/s theoretical. Thunderbolt OTOH is 10Gbit/s for generation 1 and 20Gbit/s for generation 2. Gigabit ethernet is well... 1Gbit/s of course.

As for the rest of the stuff MattW said I pretty much said the same thing earlier.

As for the NAS bit... I don't tend to have performance problems with it streaming HD videos on my LAN. I have one 3TB and two 1TB NAS units on my network here at the moment. I might be singing a different tune if this where a full on professional environment and not just me and my family... with me being the only person who's even remotely a power user.

Also, in the end transfer speeds can and are bottlenecked by the drives themselves. So even though USB3 is faster than say.. gigabit ethernet you might not even notice the difference.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#52 Tesseract

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 21 December 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Posted Image

View PostThe Liberator, on 21 December 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Geez, that thing really IS tiny, isn't it? Then again, when you are trying to connect four different externals just to get the storage space you need, I guess it makes sense. ;)
The tower on the right is this person's external storage enclosure. ;)

#53 mattw

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:37 PM

As solid state storage is becoming mainstream I don't expect mechanical disks to get massively faster soon but some of the best 7200rpm 4TB disks can achieve transfer rates of 170MB/s or so which means Gigabit Ethernet is a potential bottleneck.

The issue with USB 3 and Thunderbolt is that they are not the native interface of the drive so you usually loose something in the converter. The ideal solution would be Thunderbolt going mainstream and disks having native interfaces.

When disks were under 100GB FireWire 800 seemed OK at 60MB/s or so but when you start getting 2, 3 and 4TB disks everything below eSATA is really frustrating when you are cloning disks.
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#54 The Liberator

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostTesseract, on 22 December 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

The tower on the right is this person's external storage enclosure. ;)
You know what, that could actually be really cool. Just a tad over-powered Drobo. ;)

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#55 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:18 AM

Apparently the GPU is upgradeable. From the engadget review:

Quote

With the exception of the processor, everything is user-replaceable -- the RAM, the GPUs and the solid-state storage. (I still wouldn't recommend that the average person replace the GPU himself, but then again, the Mac Pro isn't exactly for the average consumer in the first place.)

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#56 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 02:07 PM

Under cons:

Quote

Many apps still need to be optimized to take advantage of two GPUs
Makes it sound like they can be used in a multiprocessor or SLI fashion even in OS X. Sounds like they where also expecting games to be able to harness both GPUs.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#57 Frost

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 04:39 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 23 December 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Apparently the GPU is upgradeable. From the engadget review:
Upgradeable in the sense that it's on a separate, proprietary card. Whether a manufacturer is willing to reverse engineer that in order to offer upgrades is unlikely, but possible (unless Apple is willing to cooperate with PNY/EVGA/whoever for upgrades. We'll see). Same with the SSD.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the SSD though... the only ones who have bothered reverse engineering Apple's SSD connections and offering upgrades are OWC. While I like them, they just refuse to stop using popsnizzlety Sandforce controllers. I can't tell you how many OWC Mercury SSDs I've had to RMA; it's way beyond random chance. I've started flat refusing to use them even by request except when someone wants a PATA upgrade. I don't know how they even make money off of them. The one in my PowerBook I even RMAed twice to get a working one, and even then it has random freezes if I do too much sustained writing at once (10+ GB).

Maybe someone else will step up to the plate though.
Kestrel (Falcon NW Tiki) – 4.0 GHz i7 4790K / 16GB RAM / 512GB Samsung 950 Pro M.2, 2x480GB Intel 730 (RAID0), 10TB STX BarraCuda Pro / GeForce GTX TITAN X 12GB
Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / 2TB Samsung 850 Pro / GeForce GT 650M 1GB

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#58 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:30 PM

Reminds me of the whole thing about iMac GPUs being MXM modules that are theoretically swappable and upgradeable but retail MXM modules where rare and I'd bet so where the amount of people who upgraded their iMacs via sticking an MXM module from a newer iMac into their older one. Like putting in a mid-2010 MXM module into a late 2009 iMac.

Theoretically an upgrade service could be offered I suppose.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#59 the Battle Cat

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 08:11 PM

The mobo is RTA on these GPUs, which means TGA and all can be flashed using USBA standards, a simple 2011XML codex from Xclan can provide this upgrade.  Do this before you LFA it and make sure you and it are grounded the whole time.  Should resolve itself after that.
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#60 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on 23 December 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Reminds me of the whole thing about iMac GPUs being MXM modules that are theoretically swappable and upgradeable but retail MXM modules where rare and I'd bet so where the amount of people who upgraded their iMacs via sticking an MXM module from a newer iMac into their older one. Like putting in a mid-2010 MXM module into a late 2009 iMac.

Theoretically an upgrade service could be offered I suppose.

MXM cards are a fairly standard laptop form factor GPU. You can get a 780M MXM card if you want.

Obviously supply is limited, but apple is far from the only one using the MXM form factor. Most big gaming laptops have (or at least used to) have MXM graphics card slots.
2015 13" rMBP: i5 5257U @ 2.7 GHz || Intel Iris 6100 || 8 GB LPDDR3 1866 || 256 GB SSD || macOS Sierra
Gaming Build: R5 1600 @ 3.9 GHz || Asus GTX 1070 8 GB || 16 GB DDR4 3000 || 960 Evo NVMe, 1 TB FireCuda || Win10 Pro
Other: Dell OptiPlex 3040 as VMware host || QNAP TS-228 NAS || iPhone 6S 64GB





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