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#21 Cougar

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:33 AM

View PostJanichsan, on 13 September 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

I don't see much compelling reasons to upgrade from my iPhone 4. Ah, well... maybe when the iPhone X has a built-in matter transporter.

One non-iPhone related message I took from that event is that a mythical iPad mini would be far more expensive that its 7" brethren, seeing that the iPod touch costs at least $300. So, a $200 7" iPad would be an extremely odd business decision (unless it's horribly gimped, compared to the iPod).

The news that surprisingly piqued my interest the most was the announcement of a reworked iTunes. But I'll curb my enthusiasm until it's clear whether they really completely reworked that increasingly bloated monster or if they just slapped a new layer of make-up on the pig.

I don't think we can infer any iPad mini pricing based on the iPod touch because they are two seperate markets. If you think about it, the price of the iPhone is exceedingly odd in comparison with the touch. It costs 2x as much unsubsidized, yet the cellular components don't cost $300. You can bet that Apple makes insane amounts of money off of each iPhone, much more than the touch.

The tablet market is completely different from the iPod market. The touch has no competition, but that won't be true for the mini. The main feature of the mini will be its competitive price--otherwise, what's the point? I think Apple will be willing to make a sacrifice in their large margins to keep the price down (and sell a ton). This would be unusual for them, but it would keep people away from the kindle fire.

I am also surprisingly excited about iTunes (and frustrated about the late October date, which I thought was strange. I've been wanting queuing for a long time. I still believe Apple should break up iTunes into seperate apps like on iOS (and do syncing in the Finder) but I can see why they don't do this.

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 12 September 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:


A6 was known already, which leaves the camera as the only unknown specification then.

We knew the name A6, but that told us nothing about it because it's just a marketing term made up by Apple. It could've been a die-shrunk 4S chip with improved graphics, as Anandtech believed. But since we now know it is 2x faster, Anandtech says it is almost certainly the new ARM cortex A15. We'll find out for sure once ifixit takes the phone apart.

#22 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:45 AM

I'm scared that iTunes 11 will remove list view. Haven't seen it in any screenshots yet.
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#23 Janichsan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 03:15 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 13 September 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

I'm scared that iTunes 11 will remove list view. Haven't seen it in any screenshots yet.

I assume something like the traditional list view is hiding behind the "Songs" button in the top bar. At least I hope so...
EDIT: I just watched a part of the keynote video and a list view is still there — at least for playlists and the "Songs" view. It's not completely clear whether you can display the albums as list, though.

View PostCougar, on 13 September 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

I don't think we can infer any iPad mini pricing based on the iPod touch because they are two seperate markets. ...

The tablet market is completely different from the iPod market. The touch has no competition, but that won't be true for the mini.
Actually, there were and still are a few competitors to the iPod touch, like the Galaxy Players or Microsoft's failed Zune. It's just that the market niche for portable media players between small tablets and smartphones is pretty slim that there aren't more devices like this.

And I don't think that the markets for iPod touch-like devices and small tablets are really that separated. I mean, where's the big distinction? The one is a portable device with a touch screen for media, games and internet browsing that fits in your pocket, the other is a portable device with a slightly larger touch screen for media, games and internet browsing that might fit in your coat jacket. The Kindle Fire and the Nexus 7 are aggressively marketed as media players, so there is an overlap with the iPod touch's market.

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#24 Frost

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 04:02 AM

The iPod Touch is great if you want all the PDA and multimedia functionality of the iPhone, but don't want the expense and a contract. I use my iPod Touch for exactly that, and still have my old Motorola phone on prepaid service for calls/text messaging/emergency data. Works great, and I'm not paying AT&T through the nose.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#25 Eric5h5

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:35 AM

View PostFrost, on 13 September 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

The iPod Touch is great if you want all the PDA and multimedia functionality of the iPhone, but don't want the expense and a contract. I use my iPod Touch for exactly that, and still have my old Motorola phone on prepaid service for calls/text messaging/emergency data. Works great, and I'm not paying AT&T through the nose.

Agreed, same here.

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#26 Cougar

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostJanichsan, on 13 September 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:



And I don't think that the markets for iPod touch-like devices and small tablets are really that separated. I mean, where's the big distinction? The one is a portable device with a touch screen for media, games and internet browsing that fits in your pocket, the other is a portable device with a slightly larger touch screen for media, games and internet browsing that might fit in your coat jacket. The Kindle Fire and the Nexus 7 are aggressively marketed as media players, so there is an overlap with the iPod touch's market.

They do similar things, but nobody who walks into an Apple store is going to be confused about whether to buy an iPod Touch or a Mini. That's why they are seperate markets. Also, Apple doesn't market the iPad as solely a media device--it's a "post pc" one, (as much as I dislike that term.)

#27 Janichsan

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:39 AM

View PostCougar, on 13 September 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

They do similar things, but nobody who walks into an Apple store is going to be confused about whether to buy an iPod Touch or a Mini. That's why they are seperate markets. Also, Apple doesn't market the iPad as solely a media device--it's a "post pc" one, (as much as I dislike that term.)
Well, of course no one who walks into an Apple Store today would mistake an iPad mini with an iPod touch, neither does Apple market the iPad mini as anything, since there is not iPad mini — yet. It's purely speculative if Apple would sell an iPad mini as more as an media device.

But let's pretend for a moment there would be an iPad mini and Apple would sell it for a competitive price of $200. Now someone walks into an Apple Store, and sees on the one hand an iPod touch for $300+, and on the other hand an iPad mini that is able of the same (if not more) and has a larger screen, but costs less. What do think that person would pick?

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#28 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

Ya, they've priced themselves kinda awkwardly for a mini iPad. The only price I could see a 7" iPad taking on would be $350 or perhaps $400, and then let users decide between the 10" iPad 2 for $400 or the 7" iPad 3 for $400.

On the topic of the iPhone 5, I'll be getting one. I love everything about it.
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#29 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:02 PM

I assume the iPad mini is going to hit 349$
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#30 DaveyJJ

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 02:29 PM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 13 September 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I assume the iPad mini is going to hit 349$

This is Apple. They may kill off the iPad2 entirely and go at $349 for a basic iPad mini, and $399 or $449 for a higher end one?

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#31 Frost

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 05:41 PM

I think there already is an iPad mini, it's just called iPod Touch. iPod Touch's selling point is it fits in your pocket so you can take it everywhere. It's an iPhone without the cellular contract and cellular equipment bulk in the case. iPad's selling point is it's a nicely sized, fully functional PDA.

I think the biggest argument against there even being an iPad mini is what problem with the existing line does it solve? Assuming money is not the overriding concern, why is my customer going to buy an iPad instead of an iPod Touch? Because the iPod Touch is too small or not powerful enough. Why is my customer going to buy an iPod Touch instead of an iPad? Because the iPad won't fit in his pocket and is going to be much more troublesome to keep on hand all the time.

Further, why is he going to buy an iPod Classic? Because he has a holy popsnizzleload of stuff and wants to fit it all on his device. Why is he going to buy an iPod Nano? Because the customer spoke and said tiny is cool. Why is he going to buy an iPod shuffle? Because it's crazy cheap and your music library on a glorified lapel pin is extra cool.

Where is the problem in this lineup that a theoretical iPad with two fewer inches solves? (Other than chronically underexercised girlie men who are too weak to hold the existing iPad anyway, and for whom every gram makes a difference. ;))  The pricing structure basically reveals exactly this kind of thinking too, and leaves no plausible price point for an iPad mini that doesn't have serious overlap.

Like the PowerMac line of the 1990s that Steve Jobs relentlessly slammed, it adds complexity to the supply chain, extra work for developers, and confusion to the customer for diversity that doesn't seem to have any overriding justification. It's anti-simplicity. This same kind of overlap with no real justification is the same reason the MacBook was killed. It had no place in between the Air and the Pro, and overlapped with both. Granted Steve is gone so that kind of thinking may not be the biggest concern anymore, but if it is, my money is on no iPad mini outside of internal prototyping.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#32 Tetsuya

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:18 PM

Having used the Nexus 7 for a while while attending some meetings, i can say that i think you've missed the mark a bit Frost.  I have an iPad 2 (and had an iPad before it, and will probably have an iPad 4 when it launches in the spring) and I am still considering getting a smaller tablet (in addition to my iPad).  My iPad 2 is hard to hold for extended periods of reading, for instance, and i read voraciously.  The Nexus 7 was quite easy to hold in one hand for extended periods of time.  

an iPod touch doesn't solve any of the issues of the 'big tablet is big' paradigm, because it's too small.  It's not really useful to read websites, ebooks, or really watch and enjoy a movie on the go.  Trying to read this website on my old iPod Touch is a nightmare, for instance.  It's just too small or you end up having to scroll back and forth every few seconds.  

Ill see if i can dig up a link to it later, but there was a great article on Gizmodo about why people who own 10" sized tablets will probably also want a smaller tablet.  I love my iPad as an internet and reading appliance around the house - but when im out and about i'd love to have something smaller that is just as capable of reading websites in non-miniature size.  At 200$, the Nexus is very tempting - the only reason i haven't already bought one is because i'm waiting to see if Apple pops an iPad Mini at their (already unofficially anounced) October event.  

The other compelling reason to bring out such a device is to return fire on Amazon and Google.  Theyre losing a stastically significant small amount of market share to the Nexus (which is really quite compelling to use - i was not a fan of Honeycomb as a Tablet OS, and Android in general as a tablet OS, but Jellybean is quite usable and friendly - and... FFS Apple... WIDGETS.  you know why i bought a Galaxy S3 and not an iPhone 5?  WIDGETS)  and theyre going to lose an even larger (but still small) amount of share to the Kind Fire HD, which from all reports is a pretty solid iPad competitor.  Apple needs to have a device in that size/price range or just write that category off forever (a category rapidly reaching a 30+ million sold devices number of which Apple has accounted for ZERO), and the iPod Touch simply is not that device.  It's too small.  

As for adding developer overhead - i doubt it.  My money is *solidly* on the thing being an iPad 2 with a smaller screen but the same resolution (1024x768) and/or iPad 2 guts with a screen sharing the resolution of the iPhone 5, leaving developers with only 4 resolutions to develop for.  My money is on the first option, really, as it adds no developer overhead of any kind and lets Apple use the surplus of parts theyve got lying around from the iPad 2.

#33 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:38 PM

Tetsuya has nailed it.

I freaking love the iPad, and really want to pull the trigger and one of the new iPad 3's, but at $500 it's a lot of money, and the $200 Nexus 7 is pretty tempting for a budget minded student like myself. I also like the 7" form factor a lot. It's the perfect size for holding the tablet with one hand, and tapping with the other. The iPad (I owned the first one) is really just a tiny bit to heavy to be holding with one hand for extended periods of time (reading), and slightly to big to be using on the go, cuz it's really a two handed device at all times.

The 10" form factor is beautiful for productivity, coffee table, coffee shop, living room etc. stuff. But when it comes to crawling into bed at night and wanting to read for an hour, or watch an episode of my favourite show on netflix, 10" is a little to big. I think there's a lot of room for both screen sizes, the same way there's a lot of room for different laptop screen sizes. Different preferences for different uses.
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#34 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:44 PM

Ffor reading I would always get an eReader instead of a smaller tablet. In fact, I dont see the point of small tablets either.
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#35 Frost

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:39 PM

All right, you guys think there's a good market for iPad mini, I don't. I especially don't see how a 7" tablet is in any way more portable than a 9.7". Neither one fits in your pocket (unless you're into BAGGY cargo pants), ergo you need to find a way to carry them, making them alternately just as easy or just as much a hassle to take around with you as a real book. The only real difference in portability is weight, to which I say carrying around the equivalent of six iPhone 4s is tiring, but four is totally not? Really? Really? I think your ~5 kilogram arm, how much you use it, and how you're holding it is going to make a much bigger difference in time to muscle fatigue at those weights. As it is, all the tablets on the market weight less than your average ~350 page hardcover book.

Anyway, my main point is does Apple think they're viable and a good addition, regardless of what we think. I know Steve hated the idea, and I thought indicators said no before Sept 12th and I still do. I don't think we're going to see an iPad mini unless or until they find a way to make it more compelling than just a slight size reduction, and they adjust their pricing structure so that either iPod Touch or prospective iPad mini customers aren't going "WTF is this, I'm paying almost the same price for something bigger and faster." Where the iPad mini fits in the current line is where Apple products for the past decade and change have tended to disappear, not debut, and that's why I think it's a no, at least for the near future.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#36 Tetsuya

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 12:39 AM

View PostFrost, on 13 September 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

All right, you guys think there's a good market for iPad mini, I don't. I especially don't see how a 7" tablet is in any way more portable than a 9.7".

Until you've actually held one, it wont make any sense to you.  It is susbtantially easier to pick up and use.  (ill cover more of why below).  

Quote

Neither one fits in your pocket (unless you're into BAGGY cargo pants)

The Nexus 7 fits into the back pocket of my pants (not that i'd carry it there) easily, and it fits in the leg pocket of my cargo pants (which arent very baggy) with room to spare.  I didnt try it, but it might fit into the pocket on my slacks, and would certainly fit in the inside pocket of my trenchcoat and suitcoats.  

Quote

, ergo you need to find a way to carry them, making them alternately just as easy or just as much a hassle to take around with you as a real book. The only real difference in portability is weight, to which I say carrying around the equivalent of six iPhone 4s is tiring, but four is totally not? Really? Really? I think your ~5 kilogram arm, how much you use it, and how you're holding it is going to make a much bigger difference in time to muscle fatigue at those weights. As it is, all the tablets on the market weight less than your average ~350 page hardcover book.

Not that anyone I know reads hardcover, but going to my bedroom and grabbing the copy of White Knight (Dresden Files) i had sitting there (412 pages), the book is lighter than my iPad by a good bit.; my iPad 2 is *substantially* heavier than the Nexus 7.  I read about 200 pages worth of a novel on the Nexus i was borrowing, and never once felt the slightest bit of fatigue.  holding my iPad 2 in the same fashion for more than 15 minutes causes fatigue.  There's more going on here than just weight - its also distribution of weight.  If i ask you to hold a 5lb weight in your hand, it isn't that bad.  If i ask you to hold a a 4lb weight on the end of a 1lb stick, you're going to give up in just a few minutes.  While that's a bit of an overstatement, the concentration of the device (the 7" form factor is a lot smaller than the 2" and some change in screen size would lead you to believe) makes it easier to hold.  

Quote

Anyway, my main point is does Apple think they're viable and a good addition, regardless of what we think. I know Steve hated the idea, and I thought indicators said no before Sept 12th and I still do. I don't think we're going to see an iPad mini unless or until they find a way to make it more compelling than just a slight size reduction, and they adjust their pricing structure so that either iPod Touch or prospective iPad mini customers aren't going "WTF is this, I'm paying almost the same price for something bigger and faster." Where the iPad mini fits in the currently line is where Apple products for the past decade and change have tended to disappear, not debut, and that's why I think it's a no, at least for the near future.

Again, you're probably the only person ive ever met or seen who thinks of the iPod Touch as a miniature tablet.  It simply doesn't handle any of the functions i use my tablet for except playing music or maybe watching video.  I think when Apple rejiggers the lineup, itll drop the iPad 2 and bring an iPad 'mini' (with iPad2-like-specs) to market for 349$.  It's still got Apple's redonkulous profit margin, but dips just cheap enough to lure people away from the Kindle Fire HD and Nexus 7 (because most people will want the pricier model with more storage) - because people are willing to pay an agreeable premium to buy an Apple product.  

I dont think Apple is going to overlook Amazon basically opening fire on them with the Fire HD - which by every report ive been able to find from someone who had hands-on with one at the launch event is quite a nice little device - because they could lose a lot of customers to the lure of a full HD tablet with respectable horsepower for 300 bucks cheaper.  Apple needs to do something.

And then they need to get iOS out of the Steve-zone stoneage.  iOS6 is barely worth the upgrade and contains almost no functional necessities or improvements beyond iOS5 for the average consumer.  The word "stale" doesnt quite cover it.  

When i can pop open my phone and with one glance learn all the info that (in iOS) would require me to open and close six different apps....

Houston, we have a problem.

#37 Janichsan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 01:58 AM

View PostTetsuya, on 14 September 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Until you've actually held one, it wont make any sense to you.  It is susbtantially easier to pick up and use.  (ill cover more of why below).  
I totally agree. I didn't expect a 7" tablet to handle that differently either until I actually took one in my hand. It really feels surprisingly different than a "full-size" 10" tablet.

View PostTetsuya, on 13 September 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

My money is *solidly* on the thing being an iPad 2 with a smaller screen but the same resolution (1024x768) and/or iPad 2 guts with a screen sharing the resolution of the iPhone 5, leaving developers with only 4 resolutions to develop for.  My money is on the first option, really, as it adds no developer overhead of any kind and lets Apple use the surplus of parts theyve got lying around from the iPad 2.
The problem I see with an iPad mini that is basically a shrunken iPad 2 (with 1 GHz dual-core A5 CPU and 1024x768 resolution) is that it will be hard for Apple to really make clear why this should be better than its competitors — especially when they really chose $350 as starting price (which is what I'm expecting, too). Both the Nexus 7 and the Kindle Fire HD have better hardware, while costing less.

View PostFrost, on 13 September 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Anyway, my main point is does Apple think they're viable and a good addition, regardless of what we think. I know Steve hated the idea, and I thought indicators said no before Sept 12th and I still do. I don't think we're going to see an iPad mini unless or until they find a way to make it more compelling than just a slight size reduction, and they adjust their pricing structure so that either iPod Touch or prospective iPad mini customers aren't going "WTF is this, I'm paying almost the same price for something bigger and faster." Where the iPad mini fits in the current line is where Apple products for the past decade and change have tended to disappear, not debut, and that's why I think it's a no, at least for the near future.
Well, Steve wasn't always right and at times, he also changed his mind. There are about as many (consistent) pictures of leaked parts for an iPad mini as there were for the iPhone 5, so there's apparently some truth behind the rumours about Apple working on one.

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#38 Sandbox

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 04:24 AM

Yes, iPad might seem too heavy for a reading tablet..But reading tablets do not feature iBooks..this is why I im ok about holding it with two hands))
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#39 dojoboy

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:52 AM

iPhone 5 preordered, Bitches!
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#40 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 05:55 AM

View Postdojoboy, on 14 September 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

iPhone 5 preordered, Bitches!
Pft. That is so two days ago. The hotness now is the unreleased 7" iPad.
"They're everywhere!" -And now, time for some Legend of Zelda.

iMac 2011, quad 3,4Ghz i7, 1TB Samsung EVO 840, 8GB RAM, 2GB Radeon 6970m. + 2016 Macbook m3 + iPad 2 64GB + iPhone 4S 64GB + Girlfriend + Daughter