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#1 drabyss78

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:12 AM

Okay, it has come to the point where I am facing a dilemma: I want several Lion only games (including the forthcoming Blades of Time), but I have no intention of losing 10.6.8 Snow Leopard and Rosetta.   I also have very mixed feelings about what appears to be a buggy OS that looks more like a glorified iOS that OS X...

Question: I already have partitioned for Snow Leopard and Windows 7 (125 G)--can I create a third partition for Lion and what would you recommend?  Also is there a good tutorial for this?

Thanks!

#2 doh123

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:29 AM

Have you used Lion?  its not that much different than Snow Leopard, and in fact oyu can make it look/work just about the same... its not really like iOS.

#3 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:57 AM

Personally I hate Lion.. So many small things that annoy the life out of me. Oh, and I loose all my PPC games.
"They're everywhere!"

And now, time for some Legend of Zelda.

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#4 edddeduck

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:39 AM

Lion is quicker and has updates to performance. It is pretty much the same as Snow and using it daily I don't see any of the "iOS" claims many people have made. Yes a few gestures etc are the same on both but deep down t's the same old OS just with better libraries and performance (as long as you have a decent Mac and RAM).

However talking of partitions triple booting is something we do here at Feral for testing and it is NOT simple due to how Windows works. I would read this page (ignore the Linux bits) but all the comments on partition setup and windows setup will be true. If you get it wrong the most likely thing to happen is your Windows partition will be broken and will be unable to boot again. Thread carefully and good luck!

Edwin

#5 drabyss78

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Thanks for all of the replies.  I could probably live with Lion if they hadn't killed Rosetta.  Hopefully, a third party will do something like this....  I'd be willing to pay for it.  I think what bothers me about it--and Mac lately--is that all they seem to care about is iPhone/iPad.  I realise that iPods did a lot for Mac, but it's like they want to ignore things like what iMacs, OS X, QuickTime, iTunes and so much more helped make Mac surge, NOT just iPods.  When was the last time you saw a Mac commercial on TV?  I see a ton of iPhone or iPad commercials every time I watch tv.

Getting back to the matter at hand...  I looked at the partition link--thanks Eddieduck!  I then called my Mac reseller, who has Mac certified techs, and asked if they could do it.  They seemed to think it would be no problem (for a price of course).  They also suggested buying a cheap hardrive and booting Lion from it as an option.  

Can this be done?   And does it work well?

Thanks again, and to those who enjoy Lion, sorry for the rant.  It just feels like Mac's selling to to iPhone users to try to draw them in to me.

Jim

#6 Hansi

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:38 PM

What PPC apps are you guys running day to day?

One alternative is to get Parallels or VMWare and run Snow Leopard server for the PPC apps, I know some Freehand users that do that.

#7 drabyss78

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:59 PM

Nothing really day to day, but there are some older games that I still like to play and don't want to part with.  Especially Rayman 3 and and American Mcgee's Alice, but there are many more.

I thought Parallels doesn't run Windows as well as Boot Camp, not to mention the cost, so I'd like to try more viable options.

#8 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

American McGee's Alice has an intel patch but that doesn't work in Lion. For most of those older games though I run the windows version wrapped in wineskin. It's totally free but your mileage may vary. Some here like Crossover but that costs money and doesn't let you make self contained .app files of games like wineskin does.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

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Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#9 mattw

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on 17 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

American McGee's Alice has an intel patch but that doesn't work in Lion. For most of those older games though I run the windows version wrapped in wineskin. It's totally free but your mileage may vary. Some here like Crossover but that costs money and doesn't let you make self contained .app files of games like wineskin does.

I can second that - I've been running Lion since release as I tend to do will all new OS X versions and I had loads of PowerPC games but now I have virtually all of them running in Wineskin or Crossover. You can often pick the Windows versions of these older classics up used for next to nothing.

As for Alice I just tested my install and the Aspyr version is running fine in Lion 10.7.3 for me. It says it is version 1.1.2. I think I might have had to edit an ini file or something back when Lion came out - I seem to recall a few Quake 3 engined games needed something changing to run.

#10 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

gl_extensions 0 or something.. which causes bugs with the graphics and I don't like doing. So I switched Alice to being wrapped instead.

UT and Unreal are certainly better run in WINE than trying to get the old Mac patches going. You can install the latest unofficial patches and get the music working, updated OpenGL or DirectX renderers and load up stuff like high res texture packs, etc. Same thing for Deus Ex. Sometimes setting custom resolutions for the game is better that way too.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#11 edddeduck

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:26 AM

View Postdrabyss78, on 17 April 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

They also suggested buying a cheap hardrive and booting Lion from it as an option.  

Can this be done?   And does it work well?

Thanks again, and to those who enjoy Lion, sorry for the rant.  It just feels like Mac's selling to to iPhone users to try to draw them in to me.

Jim

Yes you can do it (I have a USB HD here with over 10 OS's on it), it is pretty easy and works fairly well although your internal drive will be faster. If you want speed I would buy a FW800 drive instead of a USB2 drive for improved speed.

Edwin

#12 drabyss78

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:26 AM

"Yes you can do it (I have a USB HD here with over 10 OS's on it), it is pretty easy and works fairly well although your internal drive will be faster. If you want speed I would buy a FW800 drive instead of a USB2 drive for improved speed."

Thanks.  I like this option more than the others.  Will I be able to expect reasonable performance from a USB?  Any recommendations on FW?  I found a few 500 USB for around $60 over at amazon, but every firewire I found was over $100, usually considerably more...

Re: wineskin:  has anyone seen this guy's site:

http://www.paultheta...e39/page39.html

I found it looking for a Mac version of Rayman Origins.  Looks like he is offering wineskin wrapped games for a "premium membership" fee....

#13 edddeduck

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:18 AM

Paul the Tall - That site is a piracy site nothing more nothing less. If you already own the PC game then WineSkin is still technically illegal but at least you paid someone. However 99% of WineSkins are pirated with no cash every changing hands. His charging for some of the games is shocking and very very questionable.

In terms of HD's a full size USB 2 HD will be usable but I would have the OS you use the most on the main HD. It is not huge but under load (copying/reading data) it will be noticeable.

Edwin

#14 Janichsan

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:35 AM

View Postedddeduck, on 18 April 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

If you already own the PC game then WineSkin is still technically illegal...
Is it?  Why? :huh: WineSkin is nothing but plain old Wine with a GUI. If that's illegal, Wine itself and derivatives like CrossOver would also be. (And just in case you didn't notice: except for a few freeware games, you can only download empty WineSkin wrappers on PtT's site, without the game. You already have to own it.)

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#15 doh123

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:38 AM

View Postedddeduck, on 18 April 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Paul the Tall - That site is a piracy site nothing more nothing less. If you already own the PC game then WineSkin is still technically illegal but at least you paid someone. However 99% of WineSkins are pirated with no cash every changing hands. His charging for some of the games is shocking and very very questionable.

In terms of HD's a full size USB 2 HD will be usable but I would have the OS you use the most on the main HD. It is not huge but under load (copying/reading data) it will be noticeable.

Edwin
You have no clue what you are talking about.  A wrapper is just a wrapper, when you download it from somewhere like that, then it does NOT have the game included.  Sure some people make some with games and throw them on torrents just like for any other platform, but just getting a wrapper doesn't give you the game.  You have to buy the game on your own and use the installer tool to install in in the wrapper and then you can play.  Wineskin is not illegal... Paul The Tall's website is also not illegal... the few games he's offered as a full package did include a validly bought game license, and he put on an extra charge beyond that for making it run on the Mac for people.  99% of everything there is just a free download empty wrapper and doesn't include the game at all.

#16 edddeduck

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:31 AM

View Postdoh123, on 18 April 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

You have no clue what you are talking about.  

Nice polite way to start, I find being rude and insulting is always the best first step in a debate. Helps show the kind of argument you want to make :P

View Postdoh123, on 18 April 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

A wrapper is just a wrapper, when you download it from somewhere like that, then it does NOT have the game included.  Sure some people make some with games and throw them on torrents just like for any other platform, but just getting a wrapper doesn't give you the game.

I take it back, his links to the full games have been released under freeware (which was so unusual I did not notice). However if you tell me more than 1% of the users of Wine have the original PC software fully licensed I would not believe you without some pretty conclusive evidence. For one the EULA for a lot of software specifically prevents you running it on different platforms. Sure it's only a license agreement so who cares right?

WineSkin might be legal however the software you use in it might have a license that forbids use in WineSkin and other platform emulators. Most of the WineSkin wrappers I see sites (or threads) include the location to download a copy of the game as well. For you doh123 you just make WineSkins and help people play games (that they might not actually pay for). As someone who works and has friends in the games industry on all platforms your average wineskin user tends to be someone who lets just say is more flexible with their morality when it comes to software. You get a bit more edgy about turning a blind eye to the fact a lot of WineSkin players are pirates when you have actually had your pay check effected by them.

Yes in this case did not dig deep enough and overreacted about Paul the Tall I admit that and am not ashamed to say so. However I would say in  my defence you have likely not seen people steal the products you spend months making and claim it's OK because "I bought the PC/Console version so I should get the Mac version for free" or "the companies make millions so I don't effect anything".

WineSkin on it's own has no legal issues (potentially a few submarine patents at worst) however it's use is normally linked with piracy. I wish every WineSkin user bought a copy of the game but from the anecdotal evidence that's not the case.

Anyway I think I will bow out of this before it gets nasty. To repeat just so nobody is confused.

Paul The Tall's site is actually not piracy.
Paul the Tall's site does not link to pirated games directly.
WineSkin is one of the tools of choice in pirated games.
Many WineSkin conversations on forums etc have subtext about "acquiring" a copy of the game without payment.
I was a little stressed and saw another WineSkin based site with loads of "MacGames" as 99% of these I get linked to are usually ripping off games I got ahead of myself for that I apologise.

Edwin

#17 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:43 AM

Errr.. Edwin.. did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or what? Normally linked with piracy? Most Wineskin users are pirates? Well I can't speak for others but I've bought retail boxed copies and digital copies of games which are not and probably wont ever be available for Mac and wrapped them. Sure, it may go against the EULA but on the other hand I don't expect official support for that sort of thing. I realize I'm totally on my own and I'm OK with that. They would likely say they don't support it. But not all forbid it either. Like representatives from Remedy had been saying Alan Wake might work in WINE.

I've even bought a game for windows, wrapped it and when an official port... such as from Feral game out I bought the damn game again. I did that with Borderlands for example. Sorry but I've got little evidence to show you as I didn't keep the receipts for most of the games I have.... so if it's guilty until proven innocent here then I'm guilty.

So Wineskin at times may be used for piracy but you can say the same thing about the Mac or PC platform in general in favor of console development. As far as some people are concerned personal computers are piracy machines.... personal computers are one of the tools of choice in pirating just about anything.

Wineskin is not really at fault it's what people do with it that's at fault.

I realize though that you are edgy about WINE because it encroaches on your territory.... but most of the games I play via it are ones your company will probably never port because of lack of interest or it being not to your studio's tastes or again just a temporary solution until you or another studio (Aspyr) get around to it.

Also I'm not really happy with how this thread has turned out. I just made a recommendation for playing some of the OP's old games and it turned into this... not cool.

BTW, once again WINE is not emulation.  :cool:
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#18 doh123

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:55 AM

Sorry if you took that as rude... It's sort of how I took your post too when you call what is basically my software illegal.

The problem isn't that Wineskin is used to pirate games, but that people pirate games... Whether its for running on Windows or not.   Usually the most tech savvy people into using Wineskin, are also the types that torrent things too... this isn't related to Wineskin.  There's a reason Wineskin is set up for empty wrappers to be easy to install games into... Becauses it's assumed anything shared will not include the game (or other software). If I had some way of preventing pirates from using Wineskin I would, just as people making the Windows games actually being pirated would want to build in a way to stop them, but it's next to impossible for most game types.  If game makers could stop their games from being pirated, then that's great... and I wouldnt have to worry about it. I also don't blame Windows as responsible because people can run pirated software with it. Whether the majority of users use it illegally or not no one knows

I am a software developer, and I know what it takes to make software and that many have no clue what buying software means and wants everything for free... but that's sort of human nature. The only time I have no problem with "piracy" is if it's basically abandon software and there is no other way to get it. I also have no issues with someone hacking the software to run it how they want to use it... and I do have problems with overly restrictive License Agreements. Many agreements are written by control freaks and some parts have no benefit to anyone.

#19 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:13 AM

In this perfect world where developers could prevent piracy all games would also be simultaneous native for Mac and we'd all hold hands around the camp fire and sing cumbaya and live happily ever after.  :cool:
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#20 edddeduck

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:16 AM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on 18 April 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Wineskin is not really at fault it's what people do with it that's at fault.

I realize though that you are edgy about WINE because it encroaches on your territory.... but most of the games I play via it are ones your company will probably never port or again just a temporary solution until you or another studio (Aspyr) get around to it.

Also I'm not really happy with how this thread has turned out. I just made a recommendation for playing some of the OP's old games and it turned into this... not cool.

BTW, once again WINE is not emulation.  :cool:

Hey Smoke, I admit I have been a little grumpy today and I should have sat on my hands before posting as my comments did not come out quite right. I am at ease with WINE Skin I don't have an issue about people making wrappers to make games not ported to work on the Mac. It's a great thing and I tip my hat to the people who take the time just like modders. I get your point that pirates are the problem not WINE. However I have to say my initial reaction was because typically a quote about WINE Skin it often gets followed up with a link or comment on "where can I find the game" and let me tell you the replies are never "download it from Steam...".

doh123 thanks for your viewpoint, I disagree that it is "human nature" any more that assault or theft is human nature (i.e. some people are pricks). Just because some people do it, it should not be socially acceptable to do so. Being a software pirate is seen by large as a victimless crime unlike a physical robbery. I guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today combined with a few links on our FB page etc to a WINE wrapper video for Mafia 2 etc. Funnily enough the link included a trip to Pirate Bay to get the game.... This thread being the third WINE link I read today I guess I jumped to the conclusion just like the other two this was just another pirate using WINE. I was wrong and you guys called me on it pretty quickly.

Anyway I think we mostly agree even if I have had a shocker making myself clear!

Edwin