113 replies to this topic

[Tetsuya]

bobbob, on 18 September 2010 - 06:34 PM, said:

Which means nothing for the game, especially before they even published all that backstory for anyone to care about. Goldeneye had backstory, and was a console shooter, and had vehicles, and great multiplayer, and actually broke some ground. Backstory did nothing for any of the rest of that. Firewarrior was another game with tons more backstory than Halo, backstory that actually existed and that lots of fans cared about before the game was even made, and backstory did nothing for that game, either. It's fluff; fanservice.

I dont buy what you're selling, not even a little.  Backstory, for a story-based shooter, is what keeps you immersed in the game world.  While i enjoyed the mission layouts, the difficulty, and the gameplay aspects of Halo: Reach, the constant obliteration of established canon and the Covenant Supercarrier-sized plot holes were so jarring that i continually found myself broken out of game immersion with "but that isnt what happened!" "apparently the UNSC doesn't have satellites equipped witha  good old-fashiond camera!" or "did anyone say.. LOOK OUT THE FREAKING WINDOW?!" moments.

It's not fan-service, it's about immersion and cohesiveness of story.  If you dont care about those things...  --------->  Doom I and II are that way.  Most people expect more out of their shooters of late than mindlessly killing and death.

[Sneaky Snake]

Smoke_Tetsu, on 19 September 2010 - 11:03 AM, said:

It's not so black and white with everyone enjoying The Library or the whole game either. Once the flood was introduced I felt the stakes where raised and I enjoyed the game even more. Nor is it black and white for everyone's opinion on the game in general. It doesn't have to be the best most innovative game for someone to like it or dislike it and for the record I like it. It's just from an artistic and story standpoint I didn't feel it was the most innovative game in the world. But I know I struck a nerve and others have made some of my points for me so I'm backing off here. I wasn't trying to flame.

Yea my bad as well, I was flaming. I apologize.

[Frost]

teflon, on 19 September 2010 - 10:35 AM, said:

Same here, I actually really enjoyed The Library. Not really sure what everyone disliked about it.

Ditto. I suppose it started to feel a little drawn out at times, especially on Legendary, but I tellya what, my first couple of times there I was on the edge of my seat clenching my shotgun waiting to get f'ed up by Flood coming from any angle at any moment, and once I became one with my motion tracker I started really enjoying mowing down Flood with the shotgun and assault rifle.

Which makes me think of my one HUGE gripe with Reach: After all the bitching about how they nerfed the shotgun and assault rifle from Halo 1, they've made them even WORSE. No exaggeration, the shotgun is USELESS beyond about 7 feet. It's useful when there's an elite or brute practically on top of you, but otherwise, it takes 3 shots of full power buck to put a grunt on his back at about 10 feet. That = stupid. And the assault rifle... it's okay if you're playing on Normal, which I can never stand to do because it feels like I have Godmode on, but on Heroic (my preferred mode of play), it takes an entire mag to kill a grunt and you never have enough ammo, and the thing only holds 32 rounds. C'MON. Gimme my 60 rounds per magazine, good damage, and 600 round maximum back.

Tetsuya, on 19 September 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:

It's not fan-service, it's about immersion and cohesiveness of story.  If you dont care about those things...  --------->  Doom I and II are that way.  Most people expect more out of their shooters of late than mindlessly killing and death.

Yes. I'm that way; I only play shooters these days that give me a story I like and want to follow. Halo (CE, ODST, and Reach), Killzone, the original Gears of War, the Uncharted series, and so on. I've always been that way; I liked Doom and Doom 2 but I was never able to finish them because after a section or two I got bored and had no desire to force myself to go on. Same with Wolfenstein 3D; as much as I played it, I never sat down with it long enough to finish it until just last year (I wanted to finally fight Mecha-Hitler ). There was no motivation other than run around and kill, which is motivation enough for me for about an hour or two, but then I'm bored and I stop and often don't go back.

Contrast with Pathways Into Darkness and Marathon, both of which I was addicted to because they had a gripping story that I didn't mind experiencing multiple times the same way I don't mind seeing my favorite movies multiple times. Or even contrast with the Doom games' follow-up, Doom 3. Sure, it abused the hell out of the closet-monster tactic so that a cheap scare became a cheap groan after a while, but I really enjoyed hunting for and reading all the PDAs to figure out what was going on, the atmosphere was fantastic, and the level of interaction with the environment I thought was a brilliant move and something I really wish other games would emulate. I replayed it this July and still really enjoyed the experience.

The overall effect of story and atmosphere makes or breaks most games for me these days. I'm sure I'm not in the majority of gamers, but I'm also sure I'm far from alone.

Sneaky Snake, on 19 September 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

Really though that does look sweet! I really wish I was able to purchase Reach, it looks like the true successor to Halo 1. I've probably put over a 1000 hours into Halo: CE

Heh, same here. I'm pretty positive the original Marathon and Halo: CE are my most played shooters by far on any platform. I don't know which one I have more time sunk into, but I do know those two are far beyond anything else; only thing that might come close is Unreal Tournament (the first). If you count replays of Marathon via the port to Aleph One, I've beaten it probably 5 or 6 times, and I've beaten Halo 6 or 7 times over the years. Then there are the endless hours spent in Marathon levels where I made endlessly respawning monsters and tried to hold out as long as I could, and the same endless hours spent playing Halo CE's gloriously awesome multiplayer (which is responsible for the Eric quote in my sig ).

[the Battle Cat]

Frost, on 19 September 2010 - 02:59 PM, said:

Then there are the endless hours spent in Marathon levels where I made endlessly respawning monsters and tried to hold out as long as I could

Same here, Hell Hole was pure grunt survival mode before survival mode was cool.

[DrJohnFever]

Frost, on 19 September 2010 - 02:59 PM, said:

Then there are the endless hours spent in Marathon levels where I made endlessly respawning monsters and tried to hold out as long as I could

This is either quite sad or the coolest thing I have ever heard of.  I can't really decide.

[bobbob]

Frost, on 19 September 2010 - 02:59 PM, said:

Yes. I'm that way; I only play shooters these days that give me a story I like and want to follow

Is it the story or the backstory? Listing Gears and Uncharted means story.

[Tetsuya]

bobbob, on 19 September 2010 - 09:52 PM, said:

Is it the story or the backstory? Listing Gears and Uncharted means story.

you assume that they are truly separate; particularly in Gears, the backstory is revealed during the gameplay, to a large extent.  If your viewers/players dont understand the setting, the story, no matter how gripping, will lose its teeth.

[Sneaky Snake]

bobbob, on 19 September 2010 - 09:52 PM, said:

Is it the story or the backstory? Listing Gears and Uncharted means story.

note that the word "story" is enclosed in "backstory".

[Frost]

DrJohnFever, on 19 September 2010 - 07:24 PM, said:

This is either quite sad or the coolest thing I have ever heard of.  I can't really decide.

I can think of worse things for a teenaged Frost to be doing than using Pfhorte to increase the Pfhor count on Marathon levels to 19650 per with a maximum respawn rate and trying to survive.

[DrJohnFever]

Frost, on 21 September 2010 - 04:23 PM, said:

I can think of worse things for a teenaged Frost to be doing than using Pfhorte to increase the Pfhor count on Marathon levels to 19650 per with a maximum respawn rate and trying to survive.

I think it's decided.  Coolest thing I've ever heard. I would really like to meet teenaged Frost sometime.

[Tibur]

DrJohnFever, on 21 September 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think it's decided.  Coolest thing I've ever heard. I would really like to meet teenaged Frost sometime.

If teenaged Frost is under 18, you might want to rephrase that.  

[Frost]

DrJohnFever, on 21 September 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think it's decided.  Coolest thing I've ever heard. I would really like to meet teenaged Frost sometime.

Unfortunately you'll need a DeLorean for that; he ceased to be about seven years past and got replaced by 20s Frost.

He could be an annoying little popsnizzle though; just ask tBC and FM who used to hang out with him on alt.games.marathon last millennium. I think I still hold the distinction of being the only person to send Claude into a profanity-laced rage over a Physics Model dispute (in his defense I probably would have done the same).

Tibur, on 21 September 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

If teenaged Frost is under 18, you might want to rephrase that.  

Well, Marathon 1 was released four days before I turned 12...

[the Battle Cat]

Frost, on 21 September 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:

He could be an annoying little popsnizzle though; just ask tBC and FM who used to hang out with him on alt.games.marathon last millennium.

The only reason we allowed him to hang with us was because his mom is hot.

Frost, on 21 September 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:

Well, Marathon 1 was released four days before I turned 12...

Ohhhhhhh MYYYYYYYYYY!  What, may I ask, were you wearing? </GeorgeTakei>

[bobbob]

Sneaky Snake, on 20 September 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

note that the word "story" is enclosed in "backstory".

I'd say the backstory minimally appears if at all in the game, or it would be story. Notice how Uncharted had no backstory before release, unlike, say, Warhammer 40k before Firewarrior. Saying you play Uncharted for the backstory is a bit odd, like saying you watched Avatar for the first time for the backstory. There's no there there, man. Halo was the same exact way, and even now, having a few books doesn't quite stack up to, say, the backstory of Lego Star Wars. That doesn't mean Halo's lack of backstory makes it a worse game than Lego Star Wars, though Lego Star Wars is a great game entirely because of its fanservice and approach, but it means it's a good game for reasons other than backstory.

[Frost]

the Battle Cat, on 21 September 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

Frost, on 21 September 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:

Well, Marathon 1 was released four days before I turned 12...

Ohhhhhhh MYYYYYYYYYY!  What, may I ask, were you wearing? </GeorgeTakei>

Shouldn't that be </MichaelJackson>?  

[the Battle Cat]

Frost, on 21 September 2010 - 09:02 PM, said:

Shouldn't that be </MichaelJackson>?  

Normally I'd cuff you like a cub for your insolence but you are quite correct.

Woooooo HOOOOOOOO! What, may I ask, were you wearing? </MichaelJackson>

[rampancy]

Leave it to the 'thon fanatics to turn a Halo thread into a Marathon thread...

For the record, I didn't really mind The Library, nor did I mind the backtracking. Having played FPSs like Hexen I was used to backtracking. I think the only one main problem was that the backtracking was so linear.

In any case, I never found the Flood as fascinating or as engaging to fight as the Organics and Metalloids from Marathon RED. It's been what, a decade now, and I've still not seen a major AAA-level shooter take as many innovative risks as Ian McConville did with that scenario. I think the only other shooter I know of which threw in a major unexpected twist in your character's development on that level was the original SiN, and even then it was just a wasted concept.

[DrJohnFever]

the Battle Cat, on 22 September 2010 - 08:31 AM, said:

Normally I'd cuff you like a cub for your insolence but you are quite correct.

Woooooo HOOOOOOOO! What, may I ask, were you wearing? </MichaelJackson>

I remember what he was wearing... Does that make me a bad person?

[Sneaky Snake]

bobbob, on 21 September 2010 - 08:57 PM, said:

I'd say the backstory minimally appears if at all in the game, or it would be story. Notice how Uncharted had no backstory before release, unlike, say, Warhammer 40k before Firewarrior. Saying you play Uncharted for the backstory is a bit odd, like saying you watched Avatar for the first time for the backstory. There's no there there, man. Halo was the same exact way, and even now, having a few books doesn't quite stack up to, say, the backstory of Lego Star Wars. That doesn't mean Halo's lack of backstory makes it a worse game than Lego Star Wars, though Lego Star Wars is a great game entirely because of its fanservice and approach, but it means it's a good game for reasons other than backstory.

I think were on a different page here. Backstory isn't required to make a great game, but for me personally, it's required to make a game that stands out and is exceptional. It's one of many things that a game would need to get a perfect 10 from me.

Halo 1 is one of the few games that I would give a perfect 10 to, cuz it combines so many great elements, including a great backstory. It even has a little writeup in the game manual about the fall of reach and stuff. I just wanna stress that this is me personally.

[the Battle Cat]

DrJohnFever, on 22 September 2010 - 04:17 PM, said:

I remember what he was wearing... Does that make me a bad person?

::Looking in at DrJohnFever through a tiny window in the heavy door::

Nurse: He's been repeating that all day long in his padded cell ever since we brought him in 2 months ago.
Doctor: Increase his thorazine drip to 300 CCs a day.