113 replies to this topic

[Smoke_Tetsu]

Janichsan, on 17 September 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

It's not rare that some things have been done before. There were first person shooters before Doom, there were MP3 players before the iPod, there were shooters with vehicles and limited arsenal before Halo. That still does not invalidate the point that all three were defining for their area. Halo certainly had a huge influence on first person shooters, so that many games in the genre took many elements from it. This does not only affect consoles, since games are more and more streamlined with consoles in mind, but also on PC and Mac. Just take the Call of Duty series (at least from CoD 2 on): weapons handling, regenerating health, vehicles – there are obvious parallels to Halo. And since many games copy CoD... well, you get my drift. Just like Doom was the prototype of virtually all first person shooter up to the late 1990s (in major parts even including Marathon and Half-Life), so is Halo the prototype for most first person shooters after 2001.

It does say that they weren't as innovative and new as everyone here makes them out to be. You could say the previous games had more of an influence in succeeding games than newer games. However I do see how some FPS today are influenced by Halo such as Borderlands. However not all FPS are like this.

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That's a pretty bad example in my eyes, since the Heavy Metal comics and movies neither tell a stringent story nor form an actual background universe. It's a collection of unrelated stories that only share the adult target audience, but definitely does not would count as a "backstory" of any kind.

Yeah but still for example the last part of the first movie and the whole second movie are pretty much the same story and the game was a sequel to those. However I do admit that it's not the best example. However I did say that even Doom for example had quite the back story with the Doom Bible and it had numerous novels based on it so that's not a mark of the best story since sliced bread.

But again I know my opinion on this game isn't the popular one around here.

[Sneaky Snake]

Smoke_Tetsu, on 17 September 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

.
Tell me what does this mean if I took it out of context.

It means precisely what I meant. Pretty much zero games and even novels have the type of (available) backstory that Halo does. Most novels even these days are getting pretty shallow. Note that 'pretty much' doesn't mean that nothing has a back story like Halo, it means that the majority don't. I'm sure you've played countless games that didn't have a story worth 2 cents, especially in the fps genre.

You took it to mean that halo is the grandpappy, emperor, and godfather of all stories ever created. And that nothing comes close, which is blatantly false.

Also, you trying to make me appreciate how much you value old games, but I find this hard to believe when you make comments regarding how the great graphics were one of the main reasons for your enjoyment, and one of the main factors why you kept playing. If you want graphics then bootcamp crysis or MW2, or something cuz it'll make halo's graphics look like popsnizzlee, but it will also show you that most shooters are bone dry when it comes to story

[Smoke_Tetsu]

Sneaky Snake, on 17 September 2010 - 12:41 PM, said:

It means precisely what I meant. Pretty much zero games and even novels have the type of (available) backstory that Halo does. Most novels even these days are getting pretty shallow. Note that 'pretty much' doesn't mean that nothing has a back story like Halo, it means that the majority don't. I'm sure you've played countless games that didn't have a story worth 2 cents, especially in the fps genre.

You took it to mean that halo is the grandpappy, emperor, and godfather of all stories ever created. And that nothing comes close, which is blatantly false.

The whole problem with this is that there are way too many novels and stories for you to make such a claim of even it having the most back story out of any game or novel. You couldn't have read or played them all. It's a blanket statement and doesn't hold up to reality. That is what I'm talking about.

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Also, you trying to make me appreciate how much you value old games, but I find this hard to believe when you make comments regarding how the great graphics were one of the main reasons for your enjoyment, and one of the main factors why you kept playing. If you want graphics then bootcamp crysis or MW2, or something cuz it'll make halo's graphics look like popsnizzlee, but it will also show you that most shooters are bone dry when it comes to story

You can't tell me to appreciate Halo for it's time and then turn around and tell me practically the opposite saying if I want to see great graphics then play Crysis. Graphics don't have to be Crysis level for them to be great. Graphics also can be great and also not be not what I'm totally into style-wise. I never said Halos graphics where popsnizzlety in the first place just that the art direction wasn't my cup of tea compared to other games even of the time.

I can see you are hell bent on defending Halo though. But come on.... I don't think I have a game that I'd defend to the death as much as that.

[Ichigo27]

Smoke_Tetsu, on 17 September 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

where also talking about stories and I felt Silent Hill 2 had a better more mature back story than Halo.

Playing Maria in the revised version of Silent Hill 2? I thought it was pretty cool when you couldn't tell where the hell a monster was going to pop out and that guy who locked himself in that room. I wish her missions were a lot longer. It seems like Team Silent at the time could of flushed out more of her character before going on to James entering silent hill.

Still it must be amazing playing that game on a fast system. Not that the game even to todays standards  looks horrible, but having it run at 60 fps makes it look more life like to a game with lifelike characters. Compared to the later installments that had characters that didn't even come to the amount of detail SH2 had.

It seems like we are the only people on this forum who actually talk about that game, and how great the game was. On forum like IMG where old games are a past time, it's a shame.

[DrJohnFever]

Smoke, whether you like it or not, Halo broke ground.  Thats a fact you can't deny.  Halo was and still is massive.  Argue as you like, most FPSes (more so recently) are just created so you can destroy a 10 year old kid online.

[Ichigo27]

DrJohnFever, on 17 September 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

Halo broke ground.

Broke ground? To be fair, vehicle control was done in Codename Eagle, and more modern slightly futuristic weapons in marathon. Plus Halo barrows a lot of art (including as many greyish, blueish, and greenish looking items as you can put into) from marathons levels. You know the nice looking blue water tiles are.

I can't remember shooters besides Disruptor having a few levels that made a big deal out of blueish settings in the 90s.  Plus LAN console games I think even date back to Dreamcast games. For sure the ps2 port of UT99.

[Sneaky Snake]

Smoke_Tetsu, on 17 September 2010 - 12:49 PM, said:

The whole problem with this is that there are way too many novels and stories for you to make such a claim of even it having the most back story out of any game or novel. You couldn't have read or played them all. It's a blanket statement and doesn't hold up to reality. That is what I'm talking about.

Sigh. Once again I'm not saying that "it has the most backstory of any game or novel". I'll repost my previous paragraph with a specific sentence bolded:

"It means precisely what I meant. Pretty much zero games and even novels have the type of (available) backstory that Halo does. Most novels even these days are getting pretty shallow. Note that 'pretty much' doesn't mean that nothing has a back story like Halo, it means that the majority don't. I'm sure you've played countless games that didn't have a story worth 2 cents, especially in the fps genre."

Also if you believe that someone has to read/view everything and anything regarding a certain subject before they can make a statement/claim then there aren't go to be very many statements made, about anything.

If you want to be irritably technical then I will revise my statement to start with "In my experience...".

Smoke_Tetsu, on 17 September 2010 - 12:49 PM, said:

You can't tell me to appreciate Halo for it's time and then turn around and tell me practically the opposite saying if I want to see great graphics then play Crysis. Graphics don't have to be Crysis level for them to be great. Graphics also can be great and also not be not what I'm totally into style-wise. I never said Halos graphics where popsnizzlety in the first place just that the art direction wasn't my cup of tea compared to other games even of the time.

I'm telling you that when you make statements like:

"What also helped me enjoy the game more now is how I can run it at full settings at my native resoluton (2560x1440) at 6x antialiasing which makes it look mighty smooth."

and

"Speaking of playing games after their time I missed out on playing Silent HIll 2 and I played it recently (PC version with the graphics pumped up as high as they can go) and I really enjoyed its plot and graphics and everything to be honest more than Halo."

that your specifically the graphics in both examples, you don't replay old games for graphics. But I admit, this point is rather silly of me, as I'm making blatant assumptions about why you replayed them, so I apologize.

Smoke_Tetsu, on 17 September 2010 - 12:49 PM, said:

I can see you are hell bent on defending Halo though. But come on.... I don't think I have a game that I'd defend to the death as much as that.

I'm not hell bent on defending Halo. I hell bent on defending innovation, creativity, and amazing story telling when I see it.

[DrJohnFever]

Ichigo27, on 17 September 2010 - 09:12 PM, said:

Broke ground? To be fair, vehicle control was done in Codename Eagle, and more modern slightly futuristic weapons in marathon. Plus Halo barrows a lot of art (including as many greyish, blueish, and greenish looking items as you can put into) from marathons levels. You know the nice looking blue water tiles are.

Well, Marathon sold how much?  And how much did Halo sell?  Halo was "the game" for the early Xbox.  Ask anyone, even someone who doesn't play video games, if they have heard of Halo.  I will bet that if they have heard of one video game, it is Halo.  Halo is huge, and why?  If it broke no new ground other than vehicle control, then why did it sell so much?  It had to have done something new.

[The Liberator]

DrJohnFever, on 18 September 2010 - 06:07 AM, said:

Well, Marathon sold how much?  And how much did Halo sell?  Halo was "the game" for the early Xbox.  Ask anyone, even someone who doesn't play video games, if they have heard of Halo.  I will bet that if they have heard of one video game, it is Halo.  Halo is huge, and why?  If it broke no new ground other than vehicle control, then why did it sell so much?  It had to have done something new.

I'm gonna have to sort out disagree with you there.* I do not think that the amount of units shipped at all inherently means that the said unit is even remotely good. This can also be see with cinema (box office results). There have been many games and films (that I believe) are not that great, to even being not very good, which still sell highly. I believe MW2 was a really quite boring and relatively unentertaining game, and Avatar (referring to the film). Something does not need to be good for it to sell. There are many things that are (I believe) great, which have sold terribly, like Lions for Lambs; a 2007 film by Robert Redford.

Liberator.

*That is a quote from Office Space.

[Janichsan]

Smoke_Tetsu, on 17 September 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

It does say that they weren't as innovative and new as everyone here makes them out to be. You could say the previous games had more of an influence in succeeding games than newer games.

Maybe not, but sometimes it's not about having the most new ideas, but taking things that have been done, polish and refine them, and put them together in a well-rounded package. Apple has done that with the iPod, Bungie did that with Halo. Both were enormously successful, which should be prove that they have done something right.

Anyway, before I begin to appear as huge Halo fanboy: the game is definitely not the Holy Grail for me. Yes, it plays very well (and even after nine years – seven when you only count the Mac/PC version – has more replay value than many other FPS), but the story is clichéd trite and went completely down the drain when the game turned into a frigging zombie shooter. Halo 1 also hasn't aged very gracefully and looks surprisingly appalling from today's viewpoint. (Plus: the german localisation of Halo is simply the worst since Baldur's Gate.) In my opinion, Oni was the better one of Bungie's games from 2001.

[Sneaky Snake]

Janichsan, on 18 September 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:

Maybe not, but sometimes it's not about having the most new ideas, but taking things that have been done, polish and refine them, and put them together in a well-rounded package. Apple done that with the iPod, Bungie did that with Halo. Both were enormously successful, which should be prove that they have done something right.

Anyway, before I begin to appear as huge Halo fanboy: the game is definitely not the Holy Grail for me. Yes, it plays very well (and even after nine years – seven when you only count the Mac/PC version – has more replay value than many other FPS), but the story is clichéd trite and went completely down the drain when the game turned into a frigging zombie shooter. Halo 1 also hasn't aged very gracefully and looks surprisingly appalling from today's viewpoint. (Plus: the german localisation of Halo is simply the worst since Baldur's Gate.) In my opinion, Oni was the better one of Bungie's games from 2001.

I really hated the library mission...

[Ichigo27]

DrJohnFever, on 18 September 2010 - 06:07 AM, said:

If it broke no new ground other than vehicle control, then why did it sell so much?  

Part of it is "people" in general treated it like a trend, or a fad. Also quite a bit of xbox owners at the time of it's launch wanted a game that wasn't  munch's oddysee nor dead or alive 3. It also had LAN features and for those people who had a few xbox addicts friends/dreamcast fanboys they could just hook up to a LAN and play 4vs 4 match.

I think it's funny that you didn't go into detail on what your response was to my post, and instead focusing on sales instead of innovation.

[the Battle Cat]

Sneaky Snake, on 18 September 2010 - 10:02 AM, said:

I really hated the library mission...

That was the best part of the game for me.  Anymore when I play Halo, it's from a saved game at the start of The Library.  I'll admit that I'm abby normal, but you get all the weapons to use, with nearly endless ammo, and all the monsters you can shake a bullet at.  No backtracking, no mazes, no cut scenes.  It is simple and clear carnage served up old school with just a hint of lime.

[Frost]

Janichsan, on 18 September 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:

Maybe not, but sometimes it's not about having the most new ideas, but taking things that have been done, polish and refine them, and put them together in a well-rounded package. Apple done that with the iPod, Bungie did that with Halo. Both were enormously successful, which should be prove that they have done something right.

Yeah, this is pretty much my take on it as well. With the exception of bringing EXCELLENT FPS vehicle control to the mainstream and the great shield + health system, Halo 1 was more evolutionary than revolutionary. However, it was (to me) an extremely enjoyable overall experience. Sure the ideas had been done before story-wise, but what hasn't these days? Halo presented it in an enjoyable, engaging fashion, and kept a gripping atmosphere throughout. Then, add to that the most fun I've had with a multiplayer shooter since Unreal Tournament and there you've got a great game.

However, note that all applies to Halo 1 only. Halo 2 and 3 may have sold millions more, but I quite frankly found them rather lackluster in the overall experience and I suspect if they hadn't had "Halo" stamped on them they wouldn't have been nearly as well received.

[bobbob]

Sneaky Snake, on 17 September 2010 - 12:41 PM, said:

Pretty much zero games and even novels have the type of (available) backstory that Halo does

Which means nothing for the game, especially before they even published all that backstory for anyone to care about. Goldeneye had backstory, and was a console shooter, and had vehicles, and great multiplayer, and actually broke some ground. Backstory did nothing for any of the rest of that. Firewarrior was another game with tons more backstory than Halo, backstory that actually existed and that lots of fans cared about before the game was even made, and backstory did nothing for that game, either. It's fluff; fanservice.

[Frost]

All other stuff aside, Reach gets points from me for my being able to finish off a disgustingly tough white Elite "Ultra" on Legendary when I have no ammo left like so, and then save it for posterity.



There ain't nothin' a Ka-bar can't fix!

The "If They(1) Came to(2) Hear Me(3) Beg(4)" achievement was pretty damn funny too. (Survive a fall that would've otherwise been fatal by using an Elite to cushion your landing)

[Sneaky Snake]

bobbob, on 18 September 2010 - 06:34 PM, said:

Which means nothing for the game, especially before they even published all that backstory for anyone to care about. Goldeneye had backstory, and was a console shooter, and had vehicles, and great multiplayer, and actually broke some ground. Backstory did nothing for any of the rest of that. Firewarrior was another game with tons more backstory than Halo, backstory that actually existed and that lots of fans cared about before the game was even made, and backstory did nothing for that game, either. It's fluff; fanservice.

So the point your trying to make is that backstory is useless, and just fan service?

Frost, on 18 September 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

All other stuff aside, Reach gets points from me for my being able to finish off a disgustingly tough white Elite "Ultra" on Legendary when I have no ammo left like so, and then save it for posterity.

There ain't nothin' a Ka-bar can't fix!

The "If They(1) Came to(2) Hear Me(3) Beg(4)" achievement was pretty damn funny too. (Survive a fall that would've otherwise been fatal by using an Elite to cushion your landing)

and really frost?? your gonna derail this thread?! we are trying to flame here

Really though that does look sweet! I really wish I was able to purchase Reach, it looks like the true successor to Halo 1. I've probably put over a 1000 hours into Halo: CE

[the Battle Cat]

Sneaky Snake, on 19 September 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

So the point your trying to make is that backstory is useless, and just fan service?

It's not so black and white as that.  I believe his point was that backstory isn't the be-all of game success.

[teflon]

the Battle Cat, on 18 September 2010 - 02:07 PM, said:

That was the best part of the game for me.  Anymore when I play Halo, it's from a saved game at the start of The Library.  I'll admit that I'm abby normal, but you get all the weapons to use, with nearly endless ammo, and all the monsters you can shake a bullet at.  No backtracking, no mazes, no cut scenes.  It is simple and clear carnage served up old school with just a hint of lime.

Same here, I actually really enjoyed The Library. Not really sure what everyone disliked about it.

[Smoke_Tetsu]

It's not so black and white with everyone enjoying The Library or the whole game either. Once the flood was introduced I felt the stakes where raised and I enjoyed the game even more. Nor is it black and white for everyone's opinion on the game in general. It doesn't have to be the best most innovative game for someone to like it or dislike it and for the record I like it. It's just from an artistic and story standpoint I didn't feel it was the most innovative game in the world. But I know I struck a nerve and others have made some of my points for me so I'm backing off here. I wasn't trying to flame.