[Ichigo27]

For 5 years, their really hasn't been a big demand for pc games in general that aren't the typical arcade casual or the MMO type of games that haven't mad as big of a impact.

When I remembered pc gaming earlier this decade, their were pc games that were to epic, like JK2, Deus Ex, Half life 2, etc.

Will we ever see a new wave in pc games like we did in the 80s and 90s and people buying into pc games again that aren't casual and MMOish?

[A.Cole]

Jedi Knight 2 and Dune 2000 destroyed much of my early life. Good times.

To answer your question, no. PC gaming is slowly dying, no matter what people say. And as soon as a console makes a successful RTS and a successful MMORPG, it will truly be over. I know I don't seem like a positive person on the whole issue, but I really do think that we are just fighting the inevitable. Consoles are becoming more like computers every generation. It just sucks.

Thats just one person's opinion though.

[J'nathus]

You could be right, and the PC gaming popularity or non popularity has a trickle down effect for Mac Gaming as well.

I don't mind having console ports as long as the PC version gets the right treatment. However, there are console ports that I don't think are appropriate for keyboard / mouse control (Assassin's Creed, the new Prince of Persia, and the upcoming Batman Arkham Asylum). Conversely, there are games that simply do not lend themselves to console controllers, and it baffles me that they are popular there . . . games like those found in the Orange Box, Left 4 Dead, Mirror's Edge and just about any shooter out there. I played all the way through Mass Effect on the X-Box 360, but when it came to PC I bought it again and sold my X-Box 360 copy because its focus on the shooter aspect just felt right on the PC (instead of the 'fumbling' I feel on the console).

The thing that gives me some hope (and I argued to this extent not that long ago) is the whole 'cross platform' concept that sort of takes the discrimination out of picking a platform. The consoles are a huge investment for Microsoft and Sony, and neither is looking to bring the next hardware out within the next couple of years. With that focus, the hardware level of the current consoles and PC gaming hardware is pretty stagnant these days. My 2 year old quad core system with an 8800 GT can be built today with slightly better parts for MUCH cheaper and aside from the vaunted Crysis, nothing I've played lately really brings my machine to its knees (which means you might be able to game on a lesser / cheaper system). I won't go so far as to say that you can undercut the consoles with a well appointed gaming PC, but as progress has really slowed on the high-end hardware front, we're now able to build gaming grade machines for far cheaper than ever before. For slightly more than a console, a gaming PC is more flexible, more powerful, and open to a vastly wider range of games.

My nephew is gaming on an eMachine with 2 GB of RAM, a GeForce 8200 and a dual core AMD processor (I forget which), and while that's not what I'd call a top flight machine, it gets the job done quite well, and that was a $300 computer.

Although PC games tend to have bugs, need patches, and need machine driver updates to correct performance issues . . . the most recent consoles haven't been immune to this need, so the whole 'just stick the disc in and it works' concept no longer applies anymore. Similarly, I've had almost NO game compatibility / bug issues in the last 3-4 years to speak of, so I think that PC gaming has really gotten nailed down in recent years. As a matter of fact, my game library that I've installed reaches back to games from 2000 for my PC... while I know there are older games and older games from the Mac... the fact that my most recent operating system allows me to play pretty much EVERY game I've ever owned on the PC is pretty exciting and enjoyable for me personally.

So, regardless that PC gaming margins have really fallen off in the last few years, I still find it the most compelling gaming platform.

[The Liberator]

Yeah, agreed. I would definitely agree on the flexibility of the PC.

Liberator.

[Frigidman]

I would never give up PC gaming, mainly because:

A) Modding
B) KEYBOARD AND A FECKIN MOUSE
C) Customized hardware
D) KEYBOARD AND A FECKIN MOUSE

...

I still don't have a console, any of them, because I think they ALL suck in compares to Real Gaming™

Course, we are a dying breed who understand this. Idiots buy into cheap and lame... its what makes stupid things like walmart stay in business despite best efforts to shut them down.

Anyhow, I will still with Real Gaming™ until the end. Hopefully I will die before that happens so I dont have to worry too much about it.

[A.Cole]

That flexibility works against us though. Having a system with an ATI Radeon HD 3650, another with a nVidia 8800GT, one with just being integrated graphics, etc., leads to problems for the developers. I have read countless developer blogs that curse the computers for being so different because it leads to little errors, such as one specific card not working because of driver issues. There is no common ground for the developer to work with, and thus their product also gets unfairly bashed for not working on X system with Y components. This leads to even more turmoil when you take into account things like Quad core, Dual, SLI, etc.

A PS3 is a PS3. There is no major differences that a developer has to take into account. It gives more simplicity, and generally will cost less. Same with the Xbox, which also has the same internal components in each Xbox (except the hard drive). Furthermore, the average developer will at least want to create a game on each of these two systems (not including a Wii port) to target the highest amount of consumers, while still being cost effective. We are a small part of the market. We are really just an afterthought many times.

Another consideration: Our technology changes daily. We will get a new processor, a new graphics card, long before the consoles every change. This leads to the developer having to get used to that new high end, while the PS3 and Xbox remain stagnant until the next generation (approximately 5-8 years). This just makes consoles look that much sweeter from a cost point of view. The developer already understands the architecture of those systems, and doesn't need to change anything. A good example was when the PS3 was first released. It had a newer architecture, and thus had many developers going away from it at first.

Finally, there is the pirating that we always hear about, the real "death of computer games" if you were to believe the hype. This is prevalent in the PC market, since we are already so small to begin with. It does mess with some companies sales, and that just makes us look bad. Of course, this leads to absurd ideas, such as SecureRom and other devices, that are still avoidable by pirates, but hurt the average consumer. I worked at Best Buy for a long time, and I noticed people trying to return computer games because of security systems they didn't understand (SPORE!!!). These were not computer gamers, but people just trying computer games for fun (in other words, new gamers, which we need badly). They were appalled and would not (from what I noticed) buy any more computer games for fear of another security device to keep them from their games.

Eh, this is still all opinion, but also a little personal experience. I did a little game design with some programing friends, and we noticed that our game would not run on an ATI card for some unknown reason. Of course, we did not have the manpower nor money to truly fix the problem, but it gave me an idea of what the developers must go through.

Anyways, there are advantages to computer gaming: Online communities with patches, demos are more easily accessible, modding, etc. And the holy keyboard and mouse. But whats to say that the next console won't have keyboard and mouse compatibility? Just throwing that out there.

[Frigidman]

If they can make a 'console' system that has/support a truly superb method of control systems (joysticks, keyboards, mice), while keeping their console 'the same' for developers to work against (also making the console put out graphics and effects that are NOT crap) ... I would be more inclined to move towards consoles.

Since this isnt the case, I refuse.

The reason the pc market keeps having all these new hardware upgrades, new tech, new fun items, is because of the gaming market. Who needs some of these pc builds to run excel in an office?! Gamers have always driven the technology because they demand smoother play with all the graphics turned up. Consoles lack in that department so much it sickens me to play a game on the console when it has a PC counterpart to play instead.

(edit) Also, with the big hardware contenders becoming fewer, PCs are not as diverse as they used to be. Now, we basically have: nVidia/ATI + AMD/Intel. Thats it. Anything else and people are kidding themselves for wasting money on it. For a developer, that means making a game work on the four basic combos. They can choose to ignore 'old' machines or not, its up to them to put the cost into it. However since most gamers keep their NV/ATI drivers up to date... its not much of an issue. Plus a game can call for a specific base drivers to be installed for it to run.

Piracy is just as big on the consoles too. Actually easier (according to *sources*), and since there is such a large market for consoles, there is a larger group of pirates than what exists on the PCs. The developer's piracy cop-out has always been laughable when I hear them talk about it. Nothing stops a pirate, but a lot of those -schemes- hurt a legit buyer.

Anyhow. The day they make consoles a better unit than a PC to use, will be the day PC gaming will come to a total and abrupt halt.

[Janichsan]

The PS3 (officially) supports keyboard and mouse. The games that support those can be counted on one hand.

[Atticus]

FYI - the Arkham Asylum demo is on Steam, and it (the demo) is awesome. Works very well with keyboard and mouse.

Atticus

[J'nathus]

A.Cole, on August 11th 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

I have read countless developer blogs that curse the computers for being so different because it leads to little errors, such as one specific card not working because of driver issues. There is no common ground for the developer to work with, and thus their product also gets unfairly bashed for not working on X system with Y components. This leads to even more turmoil when you take into account things like Quad core, Dual, SLI, etc.

A PS3 is a PS3. There is no major differences that a developer has to take into account. It gives more simplicity, and generally will cost less. Same with the Xbox, which also has the same internal components in each Xbox (except the hard drive). Furthermore, the average developer will at least want to create a game on each of these two systems (not including a Wii port) to target the highest amount of consumers, while still being cost effective. We are a small part of the market. We are really just an afterthought many times.

Our technology changes daily. We will get a new processor, a new graphics card, long before the consoles every change.

Finally, there is the pirating that we always hear about, the real "death of computer games" if you were to believe the hype.

I agree and disagree with you. As was my point earlier, more and more powerful machines can be had for cheaper than ever, and today's games seem less demanding than before (this is the first time I've tried a brand new game on 2 year old hardware and been totally happy with the experience).

I'm not sure about the driver issues, as I know they WERE a problem in the past, but I haven't personally seen them myself for long enough. The point that gamers tend to keep their drivers up to date is an important one. While I don't look for updates all the time, every now and then I look at the revision notes to see if I need / want those driver updates. Many people won't do that, but for those people Windows Updates will bring them out of their complacency.

About piracy, I agree. I liked Napster when it first came out for obvious reasons (I was a starving student and it made music acquisition MEGA cheap), but the illegality of it got to me and I pulled out of the file-sharing / downloading world MANY years before the vaunted lawsuits came about. I now acquire all music from CDs I own / rip and legitimate purchases from sources such as iTunes and Amazon.

However I do not support game piracy at ANY level. If there's not a demo... then TOO BAD. If you MUST have a demo, then don't buy the game. If you download it illegally, then I can only hope the law catches up with you and you are fined appropriately. I don't find PC game prices to be disagreeable on any level, and even if I did, I'm able to budget to allow myself to live happily with new games on a regular basis. (this is not targeted at YOU personally A.Cole)

I feel certain that piracy, compatibility, system requirements and the 'price of entry' all conspire to cause issues for people getting into PC gaming. So much so there are people that tell me how consoles are 'MADE' for gaming, when the hardware they enjoy in their console of today is derived from advances made on the PC Gaming front. I even hear people say how shooters were MEANT for their *insert console of choice* . . . I think that derives from an immature mentality of 'I can only get one gaming platform so I have to just love what I have' . . . which doesn't make for impartial experiences. I've gamed on consoles... played shooters... WON shooters ON CONSOLES . . . and I still will go for a shooter on the PC any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I watch videos on youtube of people playing shooters on consoles and capturing the experience . . . watch them fumble with their aiming, the same way I feel like I'm fumbling with any game pad.. then I play my shooters on the PC and see how it's "click" and a head flies off of someone's shoulders. No fumble . . . no missing . . . just unbridled death incarnate.

To sum up, I think that if we aim for the hardware spec that the consoles are at, PCs from the last 2-3 years are more than sufficient, and at this point, I'd just like to see minor advances in hardware which require less power, run cooler and MOST IMPORTANTLY run quieter. I'm sure we could push the envelope about 100 times further than we have... but I don't think that where we're at is bad at all.

[bobbob]

A.Cole, on August 11th 2009, 09:31 AM, said:

Finally, there is the pirating that we always hear about, the real "death of computer games"

This is quite the line. PC's are the path of least resistance to pirates, yes, but if and when it 'becomes the death of PC gaming' the pirates will take the next path in line. You've seen it with handheld consoles that have never had PC's for competition, you've seen it with cheap consoles that have never had PC's for competition, and you're even seeing it with weird consoles that never had PC's for competition. When people like Carmack come out saying stupid popsnizzle like 'if only PC's had hardware DRM', it just makes this even more absurd. It didn't help the iPhone, it didn't help the Wii, it didn't help the 360, it didn't help the PSP, it didn't help the DS, and god help him if his brain injury hampers his ability as a rocket scientist because Armadillo might send someone up one day.

[J'nathus]

I think John Carmack was ouching from how much Doom 3 was pirated instead of bought. The game is an experience I think every gamer worth his salt should play, but it's a rather brief experience and a bit of a one trick pony . . . however, much of what it put into that game has been paralleled in other games later on.

An interesting bit, which I was alluding to earlier is that hardware just isn't progressing as fast these days.

John Carmack was quoted here: http://www.destructo...s--143699.phtml

"we are coasting towards some fundamental physical limits on things. We’ve already hit the megahertz wall and eventually there’s going to be a power density wall from which you won’t get more processing out there ..."

I'm sure at some point there will be a way found to overcome this roadblock, but as I said before, I don't think we're in a bad place for graphical goodness and features.

[Tetsuya]

It is so absurdly easy to mod an Xbox 360 or PS3 to run burned games that I honestly believe piracy is *easier* on those platforms than PCs, where a lot of times you have to risk viruses and use cracked exe's and what have you, special drivers, or workarounds.

my friend has a modded 360 (used to play imported games, instead of pirated) and it is MUCH easier than doing something similar on a PC. Just insert the disc and play. How hard to mod? Take out the drive and overwrite the firmware. Done.

Piracy isnt going anywhere, ever, on any platform, pretty much. The only way i know of to get around it even moderately successfully is to require you to log in to a server every time you want to play and have your own CD Key/serial. That will never fly in the US as long as broadband internet penetration is so abysmal.

[teflon]

And yet when its real money you're talking about, people often get a little bit wary of breaking things.
So that 360 that he hacked. Still got its warranty intact? didn't think so. If the firmware flash had screwed up that would have made things worse.
This illegal copy of Spore, can I run it on any PC I want and not have to worry about flushing £200 down the drain if I screw up? Sure!

The reason why PC piracy is, in my mind, bigger than console piracy is because its all in software. Yeah, it might be a tiny little bit of a pain to hunt down a crack and download the game itself, but in contrast to taking apart your console and needing to know what to do with its innards to get it to play that copied disk. to the average joe, that's much scarier...

Thats why PC piracy has in some instances been going in the 80% and above range. On modern home consoles, I doubt it breaks out of 10%.

[J'nathus]

The quintessential question regarding piracy, is whether or not it actually equates to any sales loss. Traditionally, you see people / entities that speak against piracy talk as though there's this loss as defined by the number of times an item / product is downloaded. People who don't think about it or don't know better might believe this particular impression. I feel certain that it is incorrect.

The question then becomes, what percentage of those who pirate would purchase the items they are pirating in lieu of a lack of an 'unofficial' option. As more and more PC games are ports from console games .. . the crowd of game demos seems to grow thin EVEN when there is a demo on the consoles. I don't consider this a compelling argument for piracy, but that's what some people say in defense of their actions. Personally, I'm too defensive of my computer to bother with that sort of thing. One recurrent theme on so many of the infected computers I run into from work is "free" stuff. . . bit torrent, LimeWire, and lots of 'free' games. It's sort of like the whole Mac vs PC experience... there is a price premium, but there is a certain level of experience that you are paying for, and I personally consider it worth it. Although I don't mean to suggest that Macs are altruistic and PCs are the sign of the beast . . . I do recommend to any customer that will listen to me that they not go down the path of evil . .. for FOREVER will it dominate their destiny... especially if the RIAA sues them for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[The Liberator]

Janichsan, on August 12th 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

The PS3 (officially) supports keyboard and mouse. The games that support those can be counted on one hand.

Would you care to count them out?

J, on August 13th 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

The quintessential question regarding piracy, is whether or not it actually equates to any sales loss. Traditionally, you see people / entities that speak against piracy talk as though there's this loss as defined by the number of times an item / product is downloaded. People who don't think about it or don't know better might believe this particular impression. I feel certain that it is incorrect…

Piracy has definitely damaged the number of games sold, I am sure the sales of Crysis and Assassin's Creed were damaged by the piracy of them. To what degree I cannot say, as I do not know, but I am sure it was not a very small amount.

Liberator.

[Ichigo27]

A.Cole, on August 11th 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

A PS3 is a PS3. There is no major differences that a developer has to take into account.

When dealing developing a playstation 3 your dealing with open GL ES, and a complicated platform to work with. I'd say when it comes to differences with graphics, I think if sony went with a more reasonable card that was a bit more power as oppose to a geforce 7 series type of card I think that would of made a difference when comparing to the modified x1950 that's in the 360.

And about pirating on the 360 and playstation 3, it's really that easy now to pirate games on blu ray? I thought it was still a pain in the ass?

[Sneaky Snake]

Intel's integrated graphics killed PC gaming. Everyone used to be able to go out and buy any game and be able to run it (perhaps at low settings) on their standard home pc. Nowadays people can't play on thing on their computer and have to either build a gaming rig, or buy a console. And unfortunately most just buy a console.

However with integrated GPU's actually getting somewhat decent, like the new 9400M in the MB's. I expect that things may improve for PC gaming.

[Tetsuya]

Ichigo27, on August 13th 2009, 01:58 AM, said:

When dealing developing a playstation 3 your dealing with open GL ES, and a complicated platform to work with. I'd say when it comes to differences with graphics, I think if sony went with a more reasonable card that was a bit more power as oppose to a geforce 7 series type of card I think that would of made a difference when comparing to the modified x1950 that's in the 360.

And about pirating on the 360 and playstation 3, it's really that easy now to pirate games on blu ray? I thought it was still a pain in the ass?

buy a BD-RW drive, burn game.

Mod your PS3 so it can read the burned discs

Done.

for the 360, you dont even have to remove the drive (with the right cable you can just crack the case 2 inches and plug it into your PC without ever removing the case, and, apparently if you're careful, without screwing up the warranty sticker) and they are just DVD-DL discs - meaning you can burn them with a 30$ DVD-DL burner.

I learned that one because for the Anime convention i work at, our Gaming Dpt Head had to mod 32 360s to play imported games.

[Hansi]

Tetsuya, on August 13th 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

buy a BD-RW drive, burn game.

Mod your PS3 so it can read the burned discs

Done.

The PS3 hasn't been hacked, there is no mod for it and there is not accurate way of dumping the PS3 game disks.

So there is no PS3 piracy, anyone claiming otherwise is lying or misinformed.