[Janichsan]

I'm not sure when this was released, but I haven't seen any news on this yet: Transgaming now offers Kung-Fu Panda for Mac.

[Janichsan]

There's a demo out now – well hidden. And for a good reason, as it seems: the "port" sucks. An awful crash at first launch, the mouse pointer remains visible from time to time, the mouse controls are completely flipped and the performance is abysmal.

Unfortunately the game sucks, too: repetitive and boring, horrible controls. Blargh.

[Vallen]

Is it me or have most of the new cider "ports" been seriously lacking in the performance and QA dept.? It seems things have gone from distinctly average (that initial batch of EA's 2007 Games) to downright horrible...the two Prince of Persia's and the latest Red Alert and now this. Perhaps cider is a tech best reserved for somewhat older titles vs brand new ones out of the gate...then again, If transgaming actually gave a damn about how these games perform on your average Mac, there would be a performance chart or some kind of indicator of what you can expect in terms of performance. As for crashes, well that is par for the course with cider. Quality not quantity folks, you can screw mac users over just so many times cough*Aspyr*cough with lacking ports and excuses before they just go elsewhere for games. Looks like transgaming just wants as many titles out in the wild vs actually making sure they work right...great way to build a fan base.

V

[bobbob]

Vallen, on April 13th 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

Looks like transgaming just wants as many titles out in the wild vs actually making sure they work right...great way to build a fan base.

How many are actually published by Transgaming, though? It's not like you can blame EA's reaffirmed commitment to Mac gaming on Transgaming, is it?

[Vallen]

bobbob, on April 14th 2009, 12:14 AM, said:

How many are actually published by Transgaming, though? It's not like you can blame EA's reaffirmed commitment to Mac gaming on Transgaming, is it?

Every one of the recent games I have mentioned as having poor performance-QA issues are available on Transgaming's Gametree website...thus, published by them for the Mac! The only blame that can be laid at EA's feet is for not having a better understanding of the limitations of the cider technology, and choosing better suited titles for it.

V

[Janichsan]

Vallen, on April 14th 2009, 01:25 AM, said:

...the two Prince of Persia's and the latest Red Alert and now this.

I've heard that RA3 is pretty bad, but nothing about the new PoP yet. Does it really have as much performance problems? Most people seem to be content with PoP:TTT, though – probably because it is a relatively old game and hence runs rather well with Cider.

bobbob, on April 14th 2009, 06:14 AM, said:

How many are actually published by Transgaming, though? It's not like you can blame EA's reaffirmed commitment to Mac gaming on Transgaming, is it?

Well, TG does all the ciderisation for EA, so yes, I think you can blame them for the result.

[bobbob]

Janichsan, on April 14th 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

Well, TG does all the ciderisation for EA, so yes, I think you can blame them for the result.

Does EA's undying commitment count for anything?

[Janichsan]

bobbob, on April 14th 2009, 09:44 PM, said:

Does EA's undying commitment count for anything?

No.

[bobbob]

Janichsan, on April 14th 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

No.

Even after they've shown us how much we mean to them?

It still seems odd that you'd blame TG for EA's total failure. TG has certainly been involved in some good ports, so it's probably EA's legendary commitment to Mac gaming that brings about these other ones. That's all I'm saying. Oh, and TG no more publishes the games in its online store than InsideMacGames does in its online store, so the other publishers are probably more responsible than TG for any non-EA games you might mention.

[Vallen]

bobbob, on April 14th 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

Even after they've shown us how much we mean to them?

It still seems odd that you'd blame TG for EA's total failure. TG has certainly been involved in some good ports, so it's probably EA's legendary commitment to Mac gaming that brings about these other ones. That's all I'm saying. Oh, and TG no more publishes the games in its online store than InsideMacGames does in its online store, so the other publishers are probably more responsible than TG for any non-EA games you might mention.

Huh? I'm I missing something...they port the game, pretend to provide support for said game, and they sell the game, exclusively....how is this not publishing? How is this at all similar to what IMG does with their online store?

BTW PoP TT has an awful sound bug that ruins the game, and the mouse control is terrible, as for the latest PoP game it runs horribly on even mid level macs in the lowest settings.

V

[devSin]

Vallen, on April 14th 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

Huh? I'm I missing something...they port the game, pretend to provide support for said game, and they sell the game, exclusively....how is this not publishing? How is this at all similar to what IMG does with their online store?

BTW PoP TT has an awful sound bug that ruins the game, and the mouse control is terrible, as for the latest PoP game it runs horribly on even mid level macs in the lowest settings.

I'm not sure what angle you're trying to play here, but it seems pretty obvious to me that you're purposely neglecting EA's culpability in this!

What? EA doesn't have anything to do with it, you say? Rubbish! They PROMISED US something! So what their contracted "fulfiller of promises" turned out to be a worthless scam of incompetent freetards turned capitalist white-collar criminals who somehow convinced the profit-destroying brain-trust of EA management that stupid WINE would somehow magically not suck after it's done nothing but SUCK FOR A WHOLE DECADE... down with EA! Down with EA!

[bobbob]

Vallen, on April 14th 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

they port the game, pretend to provide support for said game, and they sell the game, exclusively....how is this not publishing?

Activision is listed as publisher for KFP, specifically. 4 of the 5 recommendations I see on their site are EA, too. And one no-name they call themselves the publisher for. I don't think TG actually publishes many games, and certainly not any of the big ones as far as I can see.

Quote

How is this at all similar to what IMG does with their online store?

They have a store, but that doesn't make them the publisher. They are a developer, but that does not make them publisher (or creator).

devSin, on April 14th 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

stupid WINE would somehow magically not suck after it's done nothing but SUCK FOR A WHOLE DECADE

Eh. It works well enough for many apps, and some games even. TG just makes it hard on themselves by 1) taking on high-profile high-spec titles, and 2) working in the dark. WINE itself typically draws enough people to find and fix the biggest problems, eventually, but TG doesn't work with them so much any more.

[Jan]

I guess Cider does pretty well for older or less demanding titles. I haven't had any performance problems with Jade Empire, PoP: TTT, Rayman or Spore. To be fair, C&C: RA runs like popsnizzle on Windows, too.

[Tacohead]

Jan, on April 15th 2009, 02:53 AM, said:

I guess Cider does pretty well for older or less demanding titles. I haven't had any performance problems with Jade Empire, PoP: TTT, Rayman or Spore. To be fair, C&C: RA runs like popsnizzle on Windows, too.

Jade Empire and Spore run perfectly fine on my 2006 24" iMac with the lowly 7300 GT card. No crashes either. Sims 3 will be an interesting challenge though.

-PN

[Janichsan]

bobbob, on April 15th 2009, 12:47 AM, said:

It still seems odd that you'd blame TG for EA's total failure.

If it were limited to EA games that the Cider "ports" suck, I would agree that EA is the one to blame. But as KFP and (as it seems) the new PoP show, the problem is not limited to EA games. Cider is simply not up to the task of making modern games with modern engines run decently on Macs.

bobbob, on April 15th 2009, 08:09 AM, said:

Quote

...that stupid WINE would somehow magically not suck after it's done nothing but SUCK FOR A WHOLE DECADE

Eh. It works well enough for many apps, and some games even. TG just makes it hard on themselves by 1) taking on high-profile high-spec titles, and 2) working in the dark. WINE itself typically draws enough people to find and fix the biggest problems, eventually, but TG doesn't work with them so much any more.

I agree: the problem is not WINE (or Crossover, its commercial variant). The makers of WINE are completely aware that it is not perfect and cannot do everything. They are aiming at perfect Windows compatibility, but admit to be still far from that aim. When you run apps or games in WINE (or CrossOver), you are (or at least should be) aware of that – and be able to live with it.

Transgaming on the other hand is advertising Cider as perfect and easy solution to make even the most modern games run perfectly on Macs. Some of the TG guys even dared to call it the "new industry standard" for Mac ports. The point is: it simply isn't.

[devSin]

Aspyr games, for instance, traditionally ship with the PC publisher logo on the box and in the game assets. This doesn't mean the PC publisher has anything whatsoever to do with the Macintosh port once Aspyr has licensed the rights. As far as I'm aware, Transgaming is, by license, combining these PC games with a custom WINE distribution and selling them, no different from Aspyr offering digital copies of some games on that funky online store they once had (surely, that can't still be running).

bobbob, on April 14th 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

Eh. It works well enough for many apps, and some games even. TG just makes it hard on themselves by 1) taking on high-profile high-spec titles, and 2) working in the dark. WINE itself typically draws enough people to find and fix the biggest problems, eventually, but TG doesn't work with them so much any more.

Wow... It seems you are working off some wacky open-source description of "suck" here.

"Well enough" (as in "you take what you can get") is great when you really want to get a Windows application running on an unsupported platform. Hooray for doing it yourself when nobody "official" will help you and the expectation is that it's not possible to do what you want; nobody can be blamed for excusing its faults in these sorts of situations.

But Transgaming is not selling "well enough." You don't get to gloss over the fact that it doesn't work by most accounts for many of the games that Transgaming is fraudulently selling as Mac "ports."

"It doesn't suck... not all the time!" is entirely different from "It doesn't suck."

[Janichsan]

devSin, on April 15th 2009, 08:02 PM, said:

Aspyr games, for instance, traditionally ship with the PC publisher logo on the box and in the game assets. This doesn't mean the PC publisher has anything whatsoever to do with the Macintosh port once Aspyr has licensed the rights. As far as I'm aware, Transgaming is, by license, combining these PC games with a custom WINE distribution and selling them, no different from Aspyr offering digital copies of some games on that funky online store they once had...

Well, actually it is different: EA and Ubisoft produce and distribute the physical versions of their ciderised games themselves – EA even in some cases along with the PC version on a hybrid disc. Transgaming has nothing to do with those (except the "porting", obviously).

Quote

(surely, that can't still be running).

You wish.

[bobbob]

devSin, on April 15th 2009, 11:02 AM, said:

Wow... It seems you are working off some wacky open-source description of "suck" here.

For most of the apps I've tried, including Office and a few games, you just have to run it and it just works - sans copy protection code and DX10. Cider has been used for many ports that work just as well, especially since they can change the code. You're complaining about a few ports where it's likely the publisher who's holding back on code, funds and/or time to do a proper job of it. If the publisher and original dev are doing the standard Mac porting routine you can hardly say it's because Cider sucks.

Quote

You don't get to gloss over the fact that it doesn't work by most accounts for many of the games that Transgaming is fraudulently selling as Mac "ports."

Many of the ports are fine. Some have problems that have been or will be fixed. Most of the rest were probably not sold to you by TG's store, or are not published by TG, so you should be complaining to the publisher to have them fixed. Only if you bought them from TG's online store would you complain to them for a refund, unless TG is actually the publisher, and in which case only then you should complain to TG to have them fixed. Happy?

EA's commitment to Mac ports of C&C3/RA3 in particular fall squarely on EA, whether TG was involved or not. Similarly Kung Fu Panda falls squarely on ActiBlizzardVision, unless TG is actually the publisher like you seem to assume. It's not like you can just make this up.

[devSin]

Janichsan, on April 15th 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

Well, actually it is different: EA and Ubisoft produce and distribute the physical versions of their ciderised games themselves – EA even in some cases along with the PC version on a hybrid disc. Transgaming has nothing to do with those (except the "porting", obviously).

To note, I'm not actually aware of the details for all the games that have been complained about in this thread, and I've never actually looked into whether they're simply acting as a distributor or retailer or if they're "publishing" (if that's even relevant for digital-only titles). As much as bobbob seems to really be up-in-arms over EA, I just figured I'd give Transgaming the same treatment.

Quote

For most of the apps I've tried, including Office and a few games, you just have to run it and it just works - sans copy protection code and DX10. Cider has been used for many ports that work just as well, especially since they can change the code. You're complaining about a few ports where it's likely the publisher who's holding back on code, funds and/or time to do a proper job of it. If the publisher and original dev are doing the standard Mac porting routine you can hardly say it's because Cider sucks.

That relies on a ton of assertions now? How are they "holding back on code" when the only involvement in that regard by the publisher is to hand off the PC version of the game to Transgaming? It's not like they're actually rewriting code to work on Mac OS X. And what are these funds you seem to suggest are required for Transgaming to do their job? They're either contracted and paid with the promise of royalties or royalty advances (almost certainly not for a "port," though), or lump sum pre- or post-delivery payments. And if they're "publishing" the game themselves, then Transgaming will be the one giving the funds for the rights to distribute a licensed port. And where are these time limits coming from? In some cases, if the original publisher is also to publish the Mac version, then sure, they might get hit with the demand for a simultaneous release (Spore), but where are these other cases where there's been some evidence of the original PC publisher rushing Transgaming to market (and even if those cases exist, so what: the publisher sets the date, even for the original developer; if you can't deliver, don't take the job)? And the "standard Mac porting routine" (whatever you're actually implying here) almost assuredly assumes that there's actual "porting" going on, which there isn't?

Now, you can successfully argue that the publishers are at fault for making the incorrect and low-rent decision to allow Transgaming to handle the Mac "ports" without any proof that they're at all able to fulfill their obligations. You can even argue that they should have canceled these flawed ports when it became evident that Cider was not the panacea of fake Mac support that Transgaming had claimed. And if you were seeking a refund (what has that to do with anything, though?), you'd go to the publisher, sure, which may be EA or Activision or whoever. But how is any of that a defense of Cider?

I'll repeat from your post: "it just works." Except when it doesn't, which when given the complaints earlier in this thread, happens to most often be when Transgaming gets paid to actually make it work.

[Janichsan]

devSin, on April 16th 2009, 01:52 AM, said:

How are they "holding back on code" when the only involvement in that regard by the publisher is to hand off the PC version of the game to Transgaming? It's not like they're actually rewriting code to work on Mac OS X.

That's exactly the point: Transgaming advertises Cider as solution for Mac "ports" without having the original developer to hand over the code to anyone else. Transgaming gets the completed, compiled binary and builds the Cider wrapper around it. The only exception of this has been Heroes of Might and Magic V, but here Freeverse chose to use Cider only after they had already begun a traditional port.

bobbob, on April 16th 2009, 12:50 AM, said:

Many of the ports are fine. Some have problems that have been or will be fixed. Most of the rest were probably not sold to you by TG's store, or are not published by TG, so you should be complaining to the publisher to have them fixed.

You'd wish. With a very few exceptions, the ciderised games only got patches when the original games got patches. On very few occasions TG took that opportunity to fix some Cider related problems, but more often that not they didn't. My favourite example of TG's "excellent" support is Puzzle Quest – a game that TG themselves publish: the game is buggy and can be brought to crash reliably and reproducibly by plugging in certain USB devices (by now I learned I'm not alone with that problem). TG's only response to a report of that bug was – slightly shortened –: "Bad luck for you."