[xcman22]

So I was looking for a new RPG last week, and I had heard nothing but good things about BG II, so I procured a copy, installed it, and gave it a go. Reading all about how it was one of the best RPGs ever, my expectations were high - even though the game is now close to nine years old.

I'm afraid I've been sorely disappointed so far.

Now, I know the game is old, but for me the gameplay really prevents me from getting into it. Specifically, my issues are:

-Old and clunky movement
-Horrible pathfinding
-the "pause" mechanic doesn't work for me with combat
-Picking up items is a chore, involving holding down the TAB key all the time just to see things.

Honestly, I just feel the game hasn't aged well, and that I'm not able to really get into it. The story seems very interesting, and I'm a big fan of Minsc and the dialogue, but everything else takes enough away from the game to make it just not fun.

However, I also know that there are people who feel this game is amazing, so I'm hoping I can get convinced to keep at it. Can anyone give me reasons why I (or anyone else) should play this game? Anyway for me to overcome my issues with it?

[Tibur]

xcman22, on January 22nd 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

So I was looking for a new RPG last week, and I had heard nothing but good things about BG II, so I procured a copy, installed it, and gave it a go. Reading all about how it was one of the best RPGs ever, my expectations were high - even though the game is now close to nine years old.

I'm afraid I've been sorely disappointed so far.

Now, I know the game is old, but for me the gameplay really prevents me from getting into it. Specifically, my issues are:

-Old and clunky movement
-Horrible pathfinding
-the "pause" mechanic doesn't work for me with combat
-Picking up items is a chore, involving holding down the TAB key all the time just to see things.

Honestly, I just feel the game hasn't aged well, and that I'm not able to really get into it. The story seems very interesting, and I'm a big fan of Minsc and the dialogue, but everything else takes enough away from the game to make it just not fun.

However, I also know that there are people who feel this game is amazing, so I'm hoping I can get convinced to keep at it. Can anyone give me reasons why I (or anyone else) should play this game? Anyway for me to overcome my issues with it?

Umm.... if the story and Minsc and the dialogue aren't enough for you, I don't know what more I can add. The fact that there are lots of side-quests to complete won't help, since you seem to be having some annoying performance issues (the inability to "pause" combat would be terribly frustrating) that would only make those side-quests just more of a nuisance than anything else. There are romances between your character and certain party members (sorry, Minsc is not one of them - in fact, I think there is only one male NPC that you can "romance" if the PC is a female, whereas a male PC can romance at least three female NPCs), so that can add some "spice" to the game, as it adds some drama to the storyline.

Assuming you haven't exhausted this avenue already, I would recommend trying to find some ways to resolve the pathfinding, pause and other performance issues before giving up. There are plenty of helpful people on this forum, for example, who may be able to help you with that. I am, unfortunately, not one of them, but only because I am ignorant, not because I'm a jerk. (That's a separate issue. )

[xcman22]

Thanks for the response - let me clarify. The pause mechanic physically works - I'm just not a fan of it. I find I pause all the time, my characters get stuck trying to move, and combat just isn't fluid.

I guess my questions is: what makes this game worth playing for you? Is it primarily the story? You don't feel the overall gameplay detracts from it? I have just heard so many good thigns about this game, and then I play it, and I'm having a hard time seeing what everyone else sees. It's like those magic-3d pictures, where if you stare at it long enough some fancy image appears. I've never been able to see those, and I can't see the charm in playing this game either.

[Marble]

It's pretty clunky, yeah. Turning up the number of search nodes in the configuration app may help with your pathfinding issue. Of course the game is still worth playing. The beautiful 2D environments and deep quantity of items, spells, and a storyline that feels quite broad makes the load times and the clunkiness fairly tolerable. I would take it over NWN or even KOTOR in a heartbeat.

[devSin]

Search nodes can be increased (up to 400,000) to improve pathfinding. Make sure you have the latest patch (can be hard to find with MacPlay out of business). There's a known bug where characters will freeze up occasionally, requiring you to save and relaunch to continue (this is a compatibility issue with later versions of Mac OS X).

To be honest, the game was released when Mac OS X 10.1 was fresh; the game has never worked entirely well under Mac OS X (which, for most uses, just plain sucked back then) and was best when run under Mac OS 9. So you're already swimming against the tide as far as getting it to work the way it was intended.

The mechanics are somewhat oldschool, although I still think it's an incredible game if you can get it working right (a lot of people feel the pause mechanic is extraordinary BTW, and it's in all BioWare's RPGs to some degree, including the upcoming Dragon Age) and can play smoothly at 1024x768 with 3D acceleration enabled (but this is tough with Mac OS X).

[DavidM]

I don't know if I can convince you its a great game or not, or if you should continue, but I will try and explain why it would be in my top five all-time game list.

Most important, is the story telling and ambience the game provides. There is a sense in being part of the environment, beyond only playing a game to pass time and entertain.
The game gives the player the feeling their choices effect the outcome. The game play is not on a rail, where as Icewind Dale for example seems very linear (and less interesting as a result).

As for the combat, I think it is perfect, but, if you don't like it, that's hard to overcome because it is a matter of taste.
Combat moves quickly, but is a detailed tactical combat system, turn - based, which is sorely lacking in many role-playing games.
The combat system mirrors the D&D material well in this regard, which is a good thing.

Now if one finds the Diablo style of combat the end-all, I can see why BG might not be enjoyable.

Baldur's Gate represents almost two games in one, a detailed role-playing adventure and a detailed tactical combat system.


Does this help any?

[Tacohead]

I'm actually trying to finish it now (after a long break) and it's working well for me. The story and dialog are outstanding and there's just so much to do. The graphics are obviously dated but still functional enough. I personally love the combat system.

I prefer the isometric perspective for RPGs because there's no camera controls to distract and annoy me. I just love the Infinity engine in general and wish more games had been made with it. What I wouldn't give for a modern Infinity engine game with Diablo 3-like graphics and effects (and obviously much higher than 800x600 resolution)!

-PN

[Tibur]

I will echo what DavidM wrote, but will add one word to his exposition - Lilarcor.

I played it under OS 9, so performance was not really an issue for me at all. In addition, I played BG1 and imported my character from that game into BG2, so I was already somewhat emotionally invested in that character, which made it easier to get pulled into the BG2 story line. Maybe you can borrow someone's grape iMac and try it on that machine.

BG1 and 2 were, for me, the most faithful recreation of a tabletop AD&D campaign that I have ever played, so they had the nostalgia factor going for them, as well. NWN has all the downloadable modules, etc., but it also uses different rules (3E) which did not exist when my friends and I were playing, so I enjoy the game, but it doesn't have the emotional appeal that BG1 and 2 have for me.

I think you can always engage in combat without pausing, though I think it would be hard to win some of the more crucial battles that way, so I wouldn't recommend it. If you don't find it "realistic" or don't like the system for whatever reason, there's not much else to say.

All that being said, don't feel bad if you don't enjoy the game or think it's one of the best games ever.

[xcman22]

DavidM, on January 22nd 2009, 03:14 PM, said:

I don't know if I can convince you its a great game or not, or if you should continue, but I will try and explain why it would be in my top five all-time game list.

Most important, is the story telling and ambience the game provides. There is a sense in being part of the environment, beyond only playing a game to pass time and entertain.
The game gives the player the feeling their choices effect the outcome. The game play is not on a rail, where as Icewind Dale for example seems very linear (and less interesting as a result).

As for the combat, I think it is perfect, but, if you don't like it, that's hard to overcome because it is a matter of taste.
Combat moves quickly, but is a detailed tactical combat system, turn - based, which is sorely lacking in many role-playing games.
The combat system mirrors the D&D material well in this regard, which is a good thing.

Now if one finds the Diablo style of combat the end-all, I can see why BG might not be enjoyable.

Baldur's Gate represents almost two games in one, a detailed role-playing adventure and a detailed tactical combat system.
Does this help any?

Absolutely it helps. I'm really looking for why people love this game - especially now that it's so old.

I'm not saying I prefer a Diablo-style combat system, and I can see where the pause mechanic could work well. What's happening, however, is that I'm pausing the game less for tactical reasons and more because my silly party members aren't doing what I asked them to do. I'll try turning up the pathfinding nodes, but it's uber annoying to fight a demon and only have three members join in because the fourth is trapped behind everyone else, even though there's TONS of room for the 4th party member to move around the party and fight. Maybe I'll try using a different formation....

I'm not very far in the game, but I do like the feeling of having my choices actually matter.

I'm going to keep at it - at the very least, the game deserves some serious play time. I hope that, soon enough, I'll really be able to appreciate how awesome this game is.

[Tibur]

xcman22, on January 22nd 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

Absolutely it helps. I'm really looking for why people love this game - especially now that it's so old.

I'm not saying I prefer a Diablo-style combat system, and I can see where the pause mechanic could work well. What's happening, however, is that I'm pausing the game less for tactical reasons and more because my silly party members aren't doing what I asked them to do. I'll try turning up the pathfinding nodes, but it's uber annoying to fight a demon and only have three members join in because the fourth is trapped behind everyone else, even though there's TONS of room for the 4th party member to move around the party and fight. Maybe I'll try using a different formation....

I'm not very far in the game, but I do like the feeling of having my choices actually matter.

I'm going to keep at it - at the very least, the game deserves some serious play time. I hope that, soon enough, I'll really be able to appreciate how awesome this game is.

Ah, yes, now that you mention it, different formations are very helpful, even when just walking around exploring an area, let alone during a fight. Nothing like having your spellcasters rush to the front line while your fighters try to get around them. I also recall needing to change the party's AI (and most likely just turning it off) because the defaults were causing the NPCs to act stupidly (e.g., see the previous sentence).

Glad you're going to give it some more time. Just for fun, when in a safe area, click on any of the NPCs over and over again to get them to say something. If I recall correctly, they eventually get exasperated with you and make some smart aleck comment.

[morback]

What everyone else says and more...

It's old, it's awkward, it's backwards, but damn, it has life! It has character, personality!

I finished NWN2 recently and I thought that was quite uneventful. Better than NWN1 but nowhere close to BG2. In BG2 your companions will interact with you and with each other, they're not just mindless drones. The items you find are all unique, not just +2 and 1d6 acid axe/sword/staff/club/mace/dagger/whatever...

There are tons of really cool side quests and weird events happening, it feels like the world revolves around itself, not around you...

About combat, I had found these awesome 3rd party AI scripts that worked amazing! I didn't have anything to do in combat (mostly), I could focus on the story and RP. But when somehow they now produce horrible pathfinding lag I could not figure out.

Give it somemore time, it may grow on you...When I first picked up NWN2 I hated it, the UI was ugly and unnecessarily adorned/cluttered compared to NWN1 and some other stuff bugged me. But by the time I was done, I wasn't paying attention to that anymore.

I hope you get to enjoy it. The only other game that come close to BG2 for me are the Fallout games...

[xcman22]

morback, on January 22nd 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

What everyone else says and more...

It's old, it's awkward, it's backwards, but damn, it has life! It has character, personality!

I finished NWN2 recently and I thought that was quite uneventful. Better than NWN1 but nowhere close to BG2. In BG2 your companions will interact with you and with each other, they're not just mindless drones. The items you find are all unique, not just +2 and 1d6 acid axe/sword/staff/club/mace/dagger/whatever...

There are tons of really cool side quests and weird events happening, it feels like the world revolves around itself, not around you...

About combat, I had found these awesome 3rd party AI scripts that worked amazing! I didn't have anything to do in combat (mostly), I could focus on the story and RP. But when somehow they now produce horrible pathfinding lag I could not figure out.

Give it somemore time, it may grow on you...When I first picked up NWN2 I hated it, the UI was ugly and unnecessarily adorned/cluttered compared to NWN1 and some other stuff bugged me. But by the time I was done, I wasn't paying attention to that anymore.

I hope you get to enjoy it. The only other game that come close to BG2 for me are the Fallout games...

I loved NWN1 at first, but eventually found it to be nothing more then a hack-and-slash click fest. My fighter was wicked powerful and tore through almost everything. I didn't finish it because it got way too boring.

As for BG II, I managed to get to the (hopefully) last level of the first prison, where unfortunately Minsc died because he got hit with a sleep spell and then got killed. Tons of memphits, no way to turn the portals off...maybe if I attack the portals directly?

The game has definitely grown on me, even since yesterday. Once you get used to the interface/movements/combat, the game actually gets going. I need a LOT of work on spells (such as WTF do half of these things even do? Where are the priest spells scrolls? How do I learn priest stuff? Where's my manual?), and I'm not sure what I think about the AI scripts, but tonight's playthrough was 500% better then yesterday's. Dual-classing scares the bejezzus out of me, and WTF do I need two thieves for? I like Yoshimo's ranged attack but it does almost no damage...maybe he should stick to his katana.

Methinks I'm getting more into this game....

[devSin]

Like Yoshimo says, maybe if you destroy the portals the demons won't come through (in game terms, target the little invisible creatures inside the portals). This will shut off the annoying mephits.

Note that the game changes dramatically once you get out of the starting dungeon (and if you ever replay the game, this starting dungeon will crush your soul). (You are on the last level, be thankful.) Many people to talk to, only areas of concentrated fighting (rather than battles every five feet) or major quest dungeons, etc.

Cleric spells are learned whenever a cleric levels up (as soon as they reach the required level for casting spells, they'll learn all applicable spells of that level), so they always have access to any spell they're able to cast (you still have to memorize, of course). There are some priest scrolls (for healing and curing, etc.), but you'll rarely find them and rarely need them. You'd have to ask specifically for the other features/idiosyncrasies of BG's implementation of AD&D.

AI doesn't really do anything (the default everybody gets is really to only attack something if it attacks you, except the character you create, who gets no AI at all by default). You can assign scripts from the Character Record (select the character you want and hit the Record button, choose the Customize button, and select Script to change). There are third-party AI scripts available, as mentioned, but I wouldn't recommend it until you've played enough to be sure you want the computer to try and be clever with your party.

If your main character is a thief, you probably don't really need Yoshimo (although, he has a fair role in the main plot); if you're talking about Imoen... well, yeah, you'll need two thieves in the party.

Ranged attacks do fairly little damage, but any character of the right class can pick up a bow and get two attacks per round (most characters starting out will only get one melee attack per round, with a round being six seconds, or 3 every two rounds). It also keeps them out of range of the hittin', which is useful for characters like Yoshimo (he's a bit stronger than the average thief, but his AC and THAC0 are still bad enough that he wouldn't be terribly effective right in front with a sword).

[xcman22]

devSin, on January 22nd 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

Like Yoshimo says, maybe if you destroy the portals the demons won't come through (in game terms, target the little invisible creatures inside the portals). This will shut off the annoying mephits.

Note that the game changes dramatically once you get out of the starting dungeon (and if you ever replay the game, this starting dungeon will crush your soul). (You are on the last level, be thankful.) Many people to talk to, only areas of concentrated fighting (rather than battles every five feet) or major quest dungeons, etc.

Cleric spells are learned whenever a cleric levels up (as soon as they reach the required level for casting spells, they'll learn all applicable spells of that level), so they always have access to any spell they're able to cast (you still have to memorize, of course). There are some priest scrolls (for healing and curing, etc.), but you'll rarely find them and rarely need them. You'd have to ask specifically for the other features/idiosyncrasies of BG's implementation of AD&D.

AI doesn't really do anything (the default everybody gets is really to only attack something if it attacks you, except the character you create, who gets no AI at all by default). You can assign scripts from the Character Record (select the character you want and hit the Record button, choose the Customize button, and select Script to change). There are third-party AI scripts available, as mentioned, but I wouldn't recommend it until you've played enough to be sure you want the computer to try and be clever with your party.

If your main character is a thief, you probably don't really need Yoshimo (although, he has a fair role in the main plot); if you're talking about Imoen... well, yeah, you'll need two thieves in the party.

Ranged attacks do fairly little damage, but any character of the right class can pick up a bow and get two attacks per round (most characters starting out will only get one melee attack per round, with a round being six seconds, or 3 every two rounds). It also keeps them out of range of the hittin', which is useful for characters like Yoshimo (he's a bit stronger than the average thief, but his AC and THAC0 are still bad enough that he wouldn't be terribly effective right in front with a sword).

I'm thinking of dual-classing Yoshimo as a fighter/thief, with a focus on ranged attacks. That way, he keeps his thief skills, gets to eventually do more damage, and I don't have to worry about him exceeding his armor restrictions so he can use his thief skills. Having at least one ranged attacker is probably good, especially because it apparently can disrupt spellcasters. My main character is a dual wielding half-orc barbarian, which is nice because he has high hit points and does almost 20 damage per turn right now. Also, it seemed like one of the easier characters to play for a first-timer who 14 years ago actually played for-real AD&D 2nd edition.

Also, is Irenicus voiced by the same guy who played the Cardassian who tortured Picard in Star Trek: TNG? It certainly sounds like him, and if it is him, then that opening scene just became way way way more awesome.

[Janichsan]

xcman22, on January 23rd 2009, 03:04 PM, said:

Also, is Irenicus voiced by the same guy who played the Cardassian who tortured Picard in Star Trek: TNG? It certainly sounds like him, and if it is him, then that opening scene just became way way way more awesome.

Yup, it's David Warner.

[Tetsuya]

morback, on January 22nd 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

What everyone else says and more...

It's old, it's awkward, it's backwards, but damn, it has life! It has character, personality!

I finished NWN2 recently and I thought that was quite uneventful. Better than NWN1 but nowhere close to BG2. In BG2 your companions will interact with you and with each other, they're not just mindless drones. The items you find are all unique, not just +2 and 1d6 acid axe/sword/staff/club/mace/dagger/whatever...

im trying to figure out if you played the same NWN2 i did. I dont particularly like 3rd Ed/3.5 at all, but theyre fine for a computer game, and NWN2 all of the characters in your party interact with you and each other - they arent mindless drones. Im not sure how you could have gotten that. Particularly since they all have side-quests assosciated with them.

And there are tons of "named" unique items.

I mean, if you didnt enjoy the game, thats all well and good, but im struggling to figure out why you pulled those things out to nitpick when .... they aren true.

as for BG2... i almost feel the game was *too* busy - im a completionist, and there is so MUCH stuff to do that i got overwhelmed and quit playing.

Im having the same problem with The Witcher, at the moment.

[devSin]

xcman22, on January 23rd 2009, 06:04 AM, said:

I'm thinking of dual-classing Yoshimo as a fighter/thief, with a focus on ranged attacks. That way, he keeps his thief skills, gets to eventually do more damage, and I don't have to worry about him exceeding his armor restrictions so he can use his thief skills. Having at least one ranged attacker is probably good, especially because it apparently can disrupt spellcasters. My main character is a dual wielding half-orc barbarian, which is nice because he has high hit points and does almost 20 damage per turn right now. Also, it seemed like one of the easier characters to play for a first-timer who 14 years ago actually played for-real AD&D 2nd edition.

A successful hit can disrupt spellcasting, yes (you can also use a Wand of Magic Missiles or similarly cheap item to interrupt them if they look like they're going to be casting a major spell).

Even if you dual Yoshimo, he will be unable to use his thief skills with the heavier armors (disabling the thief skills is a property of the armor). Dualing him to fighter is a popular choice, though, but there's only one more (multiclass) thief in the city (the other having dualled away at a low level), so you're stuck with Yoshimo if you want to experiment with thief snares or have a character with high scores in detect illusions or hide in shadows.

David Warner gives a brilliant performance throughout the game.

[xcman22]

devSin, on January 23rd 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

A successful hit can disrupt spellcasting, yes (you can also use a Wand of Magic Missiles or similarly cheap item to interrupt them if they look like they're going to be casting a major spell).

Even if you dual Yoshimo, he will be unable to use his thief skills with the heavier armors (disabling the thief skills is a property of the armor). Dualing him to fighter is a popular choice, though, but there's only one more (multiclass) thief in the city (the other having dualled away at a low level), so you're stuck with Yoshimo if you want to experiment with thief snares or have a character with high scores in detect illusions or hide in shadows.

David Warner gives a brilliant performance throughout the game.

Would you recommend I keep Yoshimo primarily a thief? The only reason I am thinking of doing this is so that he can do more damage when attacking. I like to have all mt characters be able to do something in combat, and I'm not a big fan of having my thief do diddly squat during a fight. However, if dualing him as a fighter won't really help with his ranged attacks, then perhaps it's not worth it. Are high scores in detect illusions or hid in shadows worth it?

The fact that it is David Warner raises this game significantly in my eyes, as I loved him as Chancellor Gorkon and as the Cardasian torturer.

[devSin]

High scores in detect illusions are tough to get and not worth coming at the expense of other skills (it does give a good chance to dispel invisibility and illusion effects like Mirror Image). Hide in Shadows is certainly worth it (along with Move Silently), as Yoshimo will then be able to scout ahead of the party and will be able to backstab enemies (to backstab, you need to be invisible and attack the enemy from behind) for decent damage (up to 5x in BG2, determined by level).

Dualing Yoshimo to fighter won't help with his ranged damage (ranged weapons largely don't grant strength bonus to damage), but it will improve his THAC0 somewhat. Also, number of attacks is forcibly set with ranged weapons (bows get APR 2, crossbows and slings 1, and darts 3), so the additional attacks coming from high levels as a fighter won't really help him there (but it will make his melee attacks more effective in all these areas, of course).

It really depends on how you like to play; Chapter 2 of the game is huge (as Tetsuya points out, like it or not, this game goes on forever), and you're not going to level up super quickly, so you can wait awhile and see if you end up using any of Yoshimo's thief abilities. If you don't (or you only use them for picking locks and finding traps, both skills which can be raised by various potions), then it probably would make more sense to dual to a fighter, but be warned that he's going to start out at first level (and won't have access to his thief skills until his fighter level surpasses his now-permanent thief level).

[Wumpus]

I had the same issue, my friend praised this game to high heaven so I picked it up last year, but wasn't able to get into it despite multiple attempts. I tried NWN, and I didn't like that much either, so it probably has something to do with it. I'm a huge RPG fan, and one of fantasy especially with a good story, but the game mechanics just don't work for me somehow.

On the flip side, I'm a big big fallout fan, and have played Fallout & Fallout 2 many times over. To each their own I guess. I also really enjoyed KOTOR, and did it through twice.