[ikir]

Why Guitae rhero 3 saves data in Documents and not in its folder or Application support?

It si a little thing i know... but the game rocks and the conversion not... and not only for this. Aspyr usually gives us good games...

[bobbob]

ikir, on June 7th 2008, 07:54 AM, said:

Why Guitae rhero 3 saves data in Documents and not in its folder or Application support?

Its folder is a bad idea, since it's often a good idea to limit write access to the applications folder. Documents is for user-generated files, which some saves can be considered, and application support is for other files the application uses that the user didn't explicitly make. It is entirely a toss-up where saves should go. I personally think only saves made with an explicit save-as type system should be allowed to go in documents, and autosaves should go in application support, and (further) documents should not be polluted with game-specific folders in hard-coded search paths. This rule would make user-named saves a bit cumbersome for most games, though, so again, it's a bit of a toss-up. Maybe it should be a preference? But then again, if there's any debate, it should probably go in application support. Oh, well. Blame Aspyr for mixing it up a bit if you want, but there is really no guidance from Apple on this, and user preference is pretty fickle.

Edit: at best, maybe, Mac game devs should default to application support, but allow the user to specify a different path. It would be a royal PITA to get all the disparate developers to go in on that, though. Ho-hum. You might also need them to use unique file extensions to make it work better.

[AlanH]

bobbob, on June 7th 2008, 05:25 PM, said:

I personally think only saves made with an explicit save-as type system should be allowed to go in documents, and autosaves should go in application support, and (further) documents should not be polluted with game-specific folders in hard-coded search paths. This rule would make user-named saves a bit cumbersome for most games, though, so again, it's a bit of a toss-up. Maybe it should be a preference? But then again, if there's any debate, it should probably go in application support. Oh, well. Blame Aspyr for mixing it up a bit if you want, but there is really no guidance from Apple on this, and user preference is pretty fickle.

Actually, Apple is quite explicit on the subject:

Quote

Don’t Pollute User Space

It is important to remember that the user domain (/Users) is intended for files created by the user. With the exception of the ~/Library directory, your application should never install files into the user’s home directory. In particular, you should never install files into a user’s Documents directory or into the /Users/Shared directory. These directories should only be modified by the user.

Even if your application provides clip art or sample files that the user would normally manipulate, you should place those files in either the local or user’s Library/Application Support directory by default. The user can move or copy files from this directory as desired. If you are concerned about the user finding these files, you should include a way for the user to browse or access them directly from your application’s user interface.

From my experience of Civ3 and Civ4, Aspyr tends to pollute the ~/Documents/ folder by installing and populating game-specific folders containing all sorts of stuff that, on the above basis, ought to be in ~/Library/Application Support/ unless the user chooses to move it.

[Tesseract]

It's entirely a matter of whether you consider the user to be creating the save files by running the game. But yeah, all the stuff that the game installer creates should go in Application Support.

[GlendaAdams]

AlanH, on June 7th 2008, 10:05 AM, said:

From my experience of Civ3 and Civ4, Aspyr tends to pollute the ~/Documents/ folder by installing and populating game-specific folders containing all sorts of stuff that, on the above basis, ought to be in ~/Library/Application Support/ unless the user chooses to move it.

None of the Aspyr games should be installing files in the Documents folder. The Apple installer doesn't actually let us even attempt to do that.

There are save games and cache files that get put in the Documents/App Support folders when the game runs, and we've gone back and forth on which place makes the most sense. Apple hadn't set any guidelines when we asked about a year ago, but I think the install directive (don't pollute) could probably carry over to user created files that aren't actually explicitly named and saved.

Glenda

[AlanH]

GlendaAdams, on June 11th 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

None of the Aspyr games should be installing files in the Documents folder. The Apple installer doesn't actually let us even attempt to do that.

There are save games and cache files that get put in the Documents/App Support folders when the game runs, and we've gone back and forth on which place makes the most sense. Apple hadn't set any guidelines when we asked about a year ago, but I think the install directive (don't pollute) could probably carry over to user created files that aren't actually explicitly named and saved.

Glenda

This is not a big deal for me, I was only challenging the perception that Apple have left this as a fuzzy area by pointing out that there *are* clear guidelines. The link I gave seems to be broken, but it was to this page, which was last updated two years ago, in June 2006.

You can't treat first run actions as being distinct from those taken by the installer - they are just the final steps in "installation"; even more so if the game is installed by drag-copying it from the disk. There are several Aspyr-created folder structures in my ~/Documents/, and they were put there when Civ3 and Civ4 first ran. If I delete or move them they are recreated in ~/Documents/ next time I launch the app. The only way to avoid these actions is to choose never to run the game, and I don't think that is the scope of user control that Apple has in mind

The Apple guidance implies to me that the locations of the Civ3 and Civ4 folders should at least be user configurable, in case the user wishes to locate this data somewhere other than ~/Documents/. However, Apple creates special folders called Pictures, Movies, Music and Safari in ~/, so they seem not to eat their own dog food!

[ikir]

GlendaAdams, on June 11th 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

None of the Aspyr games should be installing files in the Documents folder. The Apple installer doesn't actually let us even attempt to do that.

There are save games and cache files that get put in the Documents/App Support folders when the game runs, and we've gone back and forth on which place makes the most sense. Apple hadn't set any guidelines when we asked about a year ago, but I think the install directive (don't pollute) could probably carry over to user created files that aren't actually explicitly named and saved.

Glenda

Hi Glenda. It is only my opinion but it would be better to save in Applications support or into the game folder, for example Guitar Hero ha s a game folder.

It is very cool to see youwriting here.

Good work.

[bobbob]

ikir, on July 3rd 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

into the game folder, for example Guitar Hero ha s a game folder

If you have kids, you'd be wise to give them their own account and not let it write to anywhere in the applications folder.

[Dark_Archon]

bobbob, on July 3rd 2008, 06:36 PM, said:

If you have kids, you'd be wise to give them their own account and not let it write to anywhere in the applications folder.

++
At least on my computer, I don't want other users to have the ability to mess with stuff that I use.

Nothing other than the intended user should EVER write anything to the Applications folder for any reason. Of course, quite a few developers don't follow this.

Documents isn't the worst place to put this kind of stuff(see above sentence), but in my opinion, it belongs in the Application Support Folder. I don't want applications cluttering up my Documents folder on me.

I don't think where saves go should be user configurable. I want the application in the Applications folder, and any data that is accessed only through the application should be in Application Support. The only files that belong in documents are documents the user specifically saves, and are directly opened (like a Pages document) vs a file indirectly opened(game save is loaded through the game app).

[teflon]

In fact, I dont use the Documents folder for practically anything because of all the junk that ends up there from:
Spore (creatures)
ScummVM (saves)
Sibelius (just loads of back ups which shouldnt be stored here)
VMWare (this ones fair enough)
Microsoft backups
and so much other stuff which I like to delete on a regular basis...

notice how the vast majority of things are games, which is what annoys me the most. Id rather a)have a choice between a few set options (say upon first launch it asks do you want to have saves placed in ~/Documents/GAME NAME or ~/Library/Application Support/GAME NAME. Make the user aware of where the saves are placed. Its important that this be the case, cos the only reason I can see for putting it in Documents is for ease of removal.

[Dark_Archon]

I was setting up some things for someone, and I noticed that all of the documents were saved in home instead of in the Documents folder.

[teflon]

yeah, I hate that one too. how can people live with such untidy file systems?
tidy computer, tidy mind.

[Tesseract]

teflon, on July 7th 2008, 08:28 AM, said:

yeah, I hate that one too. how can people live with such untidy file systems?

Maybe they believed Steve when he said that Spotlight meant you didn't have to bother organising things in the Finder any more.

[Dark_Archon]

Tesseract, on July 7th 2008, 09:16 AM, said:

Maybe they believed Steve when he said that Spotlight meant you didn't have to bother organising things in the Finder any more.

Spotlight should only be used for 2 things.

1. Application launcher (most useful Leopard update).
2. Searching within documents for key words.

If you are using to find things, you are doing it wrong.

[Janichsan]

Well, Spotlight replaces the good ol' search for files, so it is definitely also meant as means to find files by name. There are instances where this is necessary, even when are not the messiest and disorganised person in the world.

However: that's of course no excuse for dropping steaming heaps of files just everywhere where you seem it fit.

[Cobra]

I wish my Documents folder could be for just that, Documents.
I mean this isn't Windows, where you have sub-folders also scattered among your documents to hold whatever media files.

It isn't just Aspyr though, Macsoft's Drop Point Alaska has also rudely dumped a folder for saves and settings amongst my documents.

[teflon]

i find it even more funny when they give their files angry names like:
ubhjnkml.doc
or Word's default of taking the first 20 characters of the first line as the title:
Sear Mr Hamilton, I hope you agree that the curr.doc

you know, the stuff that doesnt make sense even at the best of times... but theres hundreds of them!

truly the worst, though, is how the rest of my family have a tendency to save files to the desktop... and leave them there... for aaaaages. only to occasionally dump them all into a big folder called (AUGUST!) and start again.

personally, I always know where my stuff is.

[Tesseract]

Dark_Archon, on July 8th 2008, 02:05 PM, said:

1. Application launcher (most useful Leopard update).

Funny, that was the only thing for which I found spotlight useful pre-Leopard.

Janichsan, on July 8th 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

Well, Spotlight replaces the good ol' search for files, so it is definitely also meant as means to find files by name.

And in Leopard, it can actually do that in a useful manner.

[charmin]

Time for an angry snapshot of my life:

Red = Games - No business saving things into MY folder. All but one are from Aspyr.
Brown = Apps that didn't give me a choice (AFAIK), but aren't games.
Black = These 3 are probably the result of either VMWare Fusion or Crossover Desktop, and they're all sodding empty.
Blue = Generated files that can have locations changed in prefs somewhere, or at least I think these ones are right.
Green = Files I've manually placed. All good. Some renaming has occured.



Aspyr
Azureus Downloads
Billing old.xls
<club stuff>
<Uni>VPN_January_2008.pcf
<Uni>VPN_May_2008.pcf
Civilization IV
Civilization IV Warlords
Degree!.png
EyeTV Archive
MSDN Serials
Microsoft User Data
My Music
My Pictures
My Spore Creations
My Videos
Roxio Converted Items
SVN Updates
SimCity 4
Sumo Receipt.pdf
Uni
Updater5
Virtual Machines.localized
iChats

I'm particularly annoyed when these folders are EMPTY, and have been created "just in case". Like I convert things with Roxio [insert iffy app here].

[teflon]

couldnt agree more.