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Encryption Chip To End Game Piracy?


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#21 Neroon

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 06:19 PM

View PostEric5h5, on May 27th 2008, 12:18 AM, said:

I mean, you'd actually play it remotely over the internet, so all you had access to was the game view.  All of the level data would stay on the server and never be transmitted, and likewise the game would be running on the server.  Naturally, that wouldn't work on dial-up, and it would require a pretty hefty investment in servers if your game got popular.  ;)  (I didn't say this method was feasible, just uncrackable....)

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You mean just like all the MMORPGs on the market today? :lol:

Im sorry to inform you but there are home made freeservers for alot (almost all of them that are popoular and has been around for more than 2 years) of the MMORPGS out there today. In some cases the server software is "stolen" from the game company that sells the game service and in some other instances a bunch of people get together and rewrite the whole servercode from scratch.

If you actually mean that every piece of the information would be on the servers only and never sent to the client i would have to ask how the player would actually play the game at all. I you can see it, its in your computers memory and you can copy it to the disk or whatever. Its actually not uncrackable at all.

#22 Eric5h5

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 07:34 PM

View PostNeroon, on May 26th 2008, 08:19 PM, said:

You mean just like all the MMORPGs on the market today? :lol:

No.  :lol:

Quote

If you actually mean that every piece of the information would be on the servers only and never sent to the client
Yes.  :lol:

Quote

i would have to ask how the player would actually play the game at all.

Over the network.  Your computer sends your input over the network and you essentially get streaming video in return.

Quote

I you can see it, its in your computers memory and you can copy it to the disk or whatever. Its actually not uncrackable at all.

Wrong.  Only the streamed video is in your computer's memory.  It's uncrackable because there's nothing for you to crack.  All you have access to is the video, period.  The code is 100% on the server and not a single byte is transmitted to your computer.  This isn't a new concept...people have been playing MUDs on dumb terminals for decades.  It's just that a modern 3D game would be a bit more resource-intensive.  ;)

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#23 Janichsan

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 11:59 PM

View PostNeroon, on May 27th 2008, 02:19 AM, said:

Im sorry to inform you but there are home made freeservers for alot (almost all of them that are popoular and has been around for more than 2 years) of the MMORPGS out there today.
Actually, that's wrong. Most MMORPGs nowadays store the game data on your local computer. Since, it is easy to rip off these data and hack a "free" server. The reason for this is simple: even the fastest internet connections nowadays are not fast enough to ensure a fluid game experience when all data had to be streamed continuously. Have you ever tried Second Life? This is a game or whatever you want to call it that actually streams all data over the net. SL is notorious for its incredible lag.

A purely net based game would probably indeed be very hard to copy (though not completely impossible), but that is unfeasible with today's internet connection speeds. Maybe in five years or so.

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#24 teflon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:35 AM

View PostEric5h5, on May 27th 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

Over the network.  Your computer sends your input over the network and you essentially get streaming video in return.
Wrong.  Only the streamed video is in your computer's memory.  It's uncrackable because there's nothing for you to crack.  All you have access to is the video, period.  The code is 100% on the server and not a single byte is transmitted to your computer.  This isn't a new concept...people have been playing MUDs on dumb terminals for decades.  It's just that a modern 3D game would be a bit more resource-intensive.  ;)

well if all the game code remains on the server then that implies that the server is also doing all the heavy lifting and your home computer is effectively a display and set of inputs to this remote computer. If none of the code is transmitted, then that means that for even just 10 people playing a game youd need a super computer, not to mention that youd want an internet connection faster than FW800...

im not saying it wouldnt work, just that its unworkable for at least the next 20 years (as far as I can see), and even then there would be trouble and uproar.
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#25 charmin

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:10 AM

There we have it - the best copy protection so far is on MUDs. Everyone - to telnet!

Incidentally, why would an uber internet connection be needed for the user if all he was receiving was streaming video? Incredibly low latency, yeah, but any decent connection today can stream video.
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#26 Neroon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:21 AM

View PostEric5h5, on May 27th 2008, 03:34 AM, said:

No.  :lol:

Yes.  :lol:
Over the network.  Your computer sends your input over the network and you essentially get streaming video in return.
Wrong.  Only the streamed video is in your computer's memory.  It's uncrackable because there's nothing for you to crack.  All you have access to is the video, period.  The code is 100% on the server and not a single byte is transmitted to your computer.  This isn't a new concept...people have been playing MUDs on dumb terminals for decades.  It's just that a modern 3D game would be a bit more resource-intensive.  ;)

--Eric

Streaming video for every player that buys the game? Thats going to be a huge latency in the feed (no games that requires good reflexes to play would work good) since the computer you are getting the feed from has to do the same work as a modern gaming computer and then encode the video. The you have to get the feed from the net as well. The game would probably cost over 1000$ to buy since everyone playing would need more processing power to play then you have at your desk times four...

Its simply not a realistic solution to anything.

#27 Neroon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:28 AM

View PostJanichsan, on May 27th 2008, 07:59 AM, said:

Actually, that's wrong. Most MMORPGs nowadays store the game data on your local computer. Since, it is easy to rip off these data and hack a "free" server. The reason for this is simple: even the fastest internet connections nowadays are not fast enough to ensure a fluid game experience when all data had to be streamed continuously. Have you ever tried Second Life? This is a game or whatever you want to call it that actually streams all data over the net. SL is notorious for its incredible lag.

Yes, they almost always store the graphics on the computer since a content wise static MMORPG works much better that way. Otherwise you have to send alot of data or have simple models for things in the game (to save the bandwith).

Since Second Life sends the raw data to your client its not that hard to intercept and store the data for the models and then make a freeserver that includes those models. Its made even more easier since the clients sourcecode is open (I think?).

View PostJanichsan, on May 27th 2008, 07:59 AM, said:

A purely net based game would probably indeed be very hard to copy (though not completely impossible), but that is unfeasible with today's internet connection speeds. Maybe in five years or so.

Since the competing games that is stored on your computer is evolving and becomming even more graphicly intensive it would be extremely hard to both keep up with them and deliver all that over the net in real time. Especially if you want to do it like he suggested and use streamed video...

#28 Janichsan

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 04:57 AM

View PostNeroon, on May 27th 2008, 11:28 AM, said:

Since the competing games that is stored on your computer is evolving and becomming even more graphicly intensive it would be extremely hard to both keep up with them and deliver all that over the net in real time. Especially if you want to do it like he suggested and use streamed video...
You are thinking too much in recent technologies. I'm talking about much faster internet connections than are available today. I never said something like real-time streaming of games would be feasible today.

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#29 Eric5h5

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:55 AM

View PostNeroon, on May 27th 2008, 05:21 AM, said:

Its simply not a realistic solution to anything.

No kidding.  :)  Allow me to quote myself:

View PostEric5h5, on May 26th 2008, 06:18 PM, said:

(I didn't say this method was feasible, just uncrackable....)

Which is true, and true.  Reading comprehension in this thread = fail.  ;)  It was just an off-the-cuff, improbable but slightly amusing comment designed to show how silly Mr. Bushnell was being...no need for it to turn into a debate....

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#30 dokter_mac

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:48 AM

I just did a quick Google search and there are even hacked ETQW servers for online internet play with a illegal copies!!!

Tssss....
I don't know how "they" (the hackers) are doing this, but it's rather sad that such a new game is so easy to hack or crack...

That's why I think we need global laws.

#31 bobbob

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:31 PM

View Postdokter_mac, on May 27th 2008, 07:48 AM, said:

I don't know how "they" (the hackers) are doing this, but it's rather sad that such a new game is so easy to hack or crack...
That's why I think we need global laws.
Yes, laws enacting the Berne Convention solve everything. No one would break any such laws, ever, and these laws would by their mere existence make DRM stronger, roads lose their potholes, and people live beyond the age of 152.

#32 dokter_mac

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 01:45 PM

View Postbobbob, on May 27th 2008, 08:31 PM, said:

Yes, laws enacting the Berne Convention solve everything. No one would break any such laws, ever, and these laws would by their mere existence make DRM stronger, roads lose their potholes, and people live beyond the age of 152.
I just mean that there is a legal vacuum on the internet and that every country, region or whatever has it own laws...

It would be a nice start if the EU laws and the US laws would be the same. Syncronise excisting good laws, make some new good laws and get rid of the stupid laws.
One international internet force to search for abuse. Piracy, Child Porn, etc.

Now it's the US in their own manner and idem dito for the EU.
If those two powers would work together it could be a big sign for industry.

Big brother is watching for X in the US, for Y in the EU and for Z in all the small countries like France or the UK...
They don't work together at all! Maybe in some rare cases they share information (like in win-win situations).

My two cents  :glare:

Take care & bye bye ;)

#33 PeopleLikeFrank

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:08 PM

Fine, but if they're implementing it in ways such as this, then global laws = fail.
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#34 charmin

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:12 PM

View Postdokter_mac, on May 27th 2008, 08:45 PM, said:

Big brother is watching for X in the US, for Y in the EU and for Z in all the small countries like France or the UK...

I'm not even starting on calling the UK a 'small country', but France isn't in the EU?
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#35 Eric5h5

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:24 PM

View Postnobody, on May 27th 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

Fine, but if they're implementing it in ways such as this, then global laws = fail.

Wow, that's one of the most wrong things I've read in a while.  So essentially border guards would be able to break your stuff if they feel like it, for no real reason.  Nice.  :rolleyes:

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#36 Janichsan

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 02:51 PM

View Postcharmin, on May 27th 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

I'm not even starting on calling the UK a 'small country', but France isn't in the EU?
I know many Brits won't like to hear that, but even the UK is in the EU. ;)

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#37 dokter_mac

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 03:22 PM

View Postcharmin, on May 27th 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

I'm not even starting on calling the UK a 'small country', but France isn't in the EU?
If you compare the UK with the EU it's a small country. About the size of France or Germany?
France is also a EU member state, just like the UK. There are so many countries & regions in the EU, it's hard to remember or know them all.
The EU is expanding so fast lately... The EU parlement is also gaining in power. Almost every 6 months when there is a big top...
EU laws are the last decennia above the local laws from the member states. So the EU law is +-70% of the local policy in a member state.

The only "big" problem in the EU is that some countries like the UK, Germany or France want to use a veto right...
Germany and France are real pro EU countries. So there are no much problems with them in the EU parlement.

But the UK is not realy a pro EU country for the moment (after Blaire). They are islanders and they don't like that the EU is getting more powerful.
I think the UK harts want to be some kind of state from America :D , rather then one from the EU :D. Or both! US & EU (getting the best from the two) :D

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#38 Neroon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:55 PM

View PostJanichsan, on May 27th 2008, 12:57 PM, said:

You are thinking too much in recent technologies. I'm talking about much faster internet connections than are available today. I never said something like real-time streaming of games would be feasible today.

Much faster internet speed, yes. Problem is that the games will get alot more complex as well. Its true for all software. Try going back in time and tell people how large photoshop would be today or even (oh the horror) how much processing time, RAM and disk space Office occupies nowadays. They would be truly horrified...

There will be no "playing games through streamed video" commercially avaliable for the average consumer since its a waste of both bandwith and processor time. Maing it work the "normal" way it alot simpler, cost effective and gives alot more enjoyable play time (since the latency between a server in another country will always have a higher latency than the inches between your computer and your monitor.

In short: It does not give any real benefit versus the existing models and it would probably cost about ten times more.

View PostEric5h5, on May 27th 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

No kidding.  :)  Allow me to quote myself:
Which is true, and true.  Reading comprehension in this thread = fail.  ;)  It was just an off-the-cuff, improbable but slightly amusing comment designed to show how silly Mr. Bushnell was being...no need for it to turn into a debate....

--Eric


hehe, well, than I have to sugest another way of doing it then:

Every time someone wants to play he has to phone the regional gaming central. They will sned a console out with ten armed guards that will watch the player at all times while the console is there. This system is also unhackable and just as not working in the real world ^^

#39 Neroon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:01 PM

View Postdokter_mac, on May 27th 2008, 09:45 PM, said:

I just mean that there is a legal vacuum on the internet and that every country, region or whatever has it own laws...

It would be a nice start if the EU laws and the US laws would be the same. Syncronise excisting good laws, make some new good laws and get rid of the stupid laws.
One international internet force to search for abuse. Piracy, Child Porn, etc.

Now it's the US in their own manner and idem dito for the EU.
If those two powers would work together it could be a big sign for industry.

Big brother is watching for X in the US, for Y in the EU and for Z in all the small countries like France or the UK...
They don't work together at all! Maybe in some rare cases they share information (like in win-win situations).

My two € cents  :glare:

Take care & bye bye ;)

Actually, I think the copyright laws are due for a real change.
A change not in making them more strict but in the opposite direction. Copyright infringement done by private citizens are not a real threat (in the short or in the long run) to a working industry.
For instance: The gaming industry sure has alot of piracy but its not like its worth changing the whole society in the 1984 direction just to get a few people that probably wouldnt pay anyway to court.
The music industry sure have problems but thats not really anyone elses fault but their own. I bought a ton of music when napster was widely used and free. Now, I have stopped buying (and I dont download any music either, just to make that clear). I hate that industry and i dont think they should get any money while they act like spoiled children with a big brother complex...

The country that stands in the way of progress is the US in this case. If the problem gets worse (which they will if the industries continiue to act through legislation instead of reinventing themselves) many basic freedoms (like listening to music while you travel) will be taken away from every private citizen. Yes, there is a plan to make it legal for customs to sieze MP3players and portable computers from private citizens if they -suspect- they you have copied movies, games or music on it. Nevermind if you actually have bought the music on a CD and ripped it to the computer (or bought a game and used a no-cd krack). The plan is scheduled for the G8 summit in Juli if you havent read the news yet (its on macsurfer.com)...

#40 the Battle Cat

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:07 PM

View Postdokter_mac, on May 27th 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

Oh boy... Politics on InsideMacGames...  :happy: :cool:
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