114 replies to this topic

[digt]

edddeduck, on May 8th 2008, 03:15 AM, said:

A better question to debate (I think at least) would be what type of DRM would you be happy with but would also help stop rampant piracy?...

I think that edddeduck's entire post is the most insightful in this entire thread. Okay so the metaphor isn't accurate and he is influenced by his profession. At the same time he has insight that average gamers  don't have and by this one post I can see how much he's actually thought about it and how much he understands it from the customers point of view.

I feel that developers can become disconnected from their users (game developers are no exception) quite easily so it's a big help when you can understand what is going on, kudos to Edwin/Brad/Glenda. That disconnection seems to be one of the reasons behind copyright infringement as well (ie the big bad greedy selfish game developers).

[Bernie]

the Battle Cat, on May 20th 2008, 10:16 AM, said:

Bellevue is going to need a really big rubber room when they come to get us.

Isn't that where we all are already? Did you take my meds again? Do you think that we're in the real world?

[Sparky9292]

digt, on May 20th 2008, 05:17 PM, said:

I feel that developers can become disconnected from their users (game developers are no exception) quite easily so it's a big help when you can understand what is going on, kudos to Edwin/Brad/Glenda. That disconnection seems to be one of the reasons behind copyright infringement as well (ie the big bad greedy selfish game developers).

When it comes to draconian DRM, it's almost never the developers that are too blame.  It's almost always the pointy-hair boss types -- mainly the publishers that put in this crap.  Publishers just don't get it!

DRM only hurts the honest people... it's pointless to put it in -- a quick glance at nforce's site shows you that every major title's DRM has been bypassed.  There are tons of places to get modchips for your XBox360.... tons of places to get ROMS for your NintendoDS...  Heck, now you can play World of Warcraft on free servers! DRM is just plain idiotic.

People will always pay money for good quality music, gaming software, and movies.  Just look at what Radiohead and NIN did with their albums!

I simply don't see how piracy hurts developers...  If you release a good game, people will pay you money.  It's similar to leaving a tip at a restaurant.... yes some people don't tip, but most do for good service... same for software!

Ultimately, I don't see that copyright infringement is the destruction of mankind...

[Eric5h5]

Sparky9292, on June 8th 2008, 01:12 PM, said:

I simply don't see how piracy hurts developers...  If you release a good game, people will pay you money.  It's similar to leaving a tip at a restaurant.... yes some people don't tip, but most do for good service... same for software!

That's just...not very realistic.  You're vastly underestimating the effect of anonymity.  In a restaurant, you're right there with the people doing the work, and social pressure will make most people tip.  With software, there is no such pressure.  Imagine if the "restaurant" consisted of a box in your house that food gets teleported to.  You never see the people who made it, and there's no way for anyone to tell which house they've sent the food to.  You're expected to put money in a slot in return, but the chances of anything bad happening if you don't are remote.  How many people are going to tip now?

--Eric

[Frigidman™]

Piracy = bad in any shape or form.
DRM = equally as bad.
Finding a way to legally own the game and destroy the DRM so you can play it = priceless.

[Sparky9292]

Frigidman, on June 8th 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

Piracy = bad in any shape or form.
DRM = equally as bad.
Finding a way to legally own the game and destroy the DRM so you can play it = priceless.

You hit the nail on it's head!

[QuantaCat]

Eric5h5, on June 8th 2008, 08:37 PM, said:

That's just...not very realistic.  You're vastly underestimating the effect of anonymity.  In a restaurant, you're right there with the people doing the work, and social pressure will make most people tip.  With software, there is no such pressure.  Imagine if the "restaurant" consisted of a box in your house that food gets teleported to.  You never see the people who made it, and there's no way for anyone to tell which house they've sent the food to.  You're expected to put money in a slot in return, but the chances of anything bad happening if you don't are remote.  How many people are going to tip now?

--Eric

I wouldn't say that. There are restaurants that have "pay as you like" systems, and they work perfectly, make even more than they would if they did ask fixed prices.

Or that Radiohead album. In the end, they made more than they did on regular sales. Or atleast just as much.

And I tip, not due to social pressure, because I don't care if some waiter looks at me in a funny way. I tip because I know these jobs pay like popsnizzle.

[gbafan]

edddeduck, on May 8th 2008, 03:15 AM, said:

A better question to debate (I think at least) would be what type of DRM would you be happy with but would also help stop rampant piracy?

How about having the game display your full name, address and phone number on the loading screens in return for no online checking after registration? As you are the only person playing this would not be an issue... or would it?

How about having an online credit check system where every online check gives you a credit and every credit lasts X days?

Or how about a system like EA but in the first 3 weeks after release the check is needed every 5 days after a month every 10 days, after 6 months every six months and after 2 years only once?

This is something I think quite a lot about as I am a keen gamer (hate badly implemented copy protection) but I also work for a games company and I have seen the number of torrents and completed downloads of our games on piracy sites and understand the need to protect my livelihood (hence agree that some sort of protection is needed).

Edwin

First and foremost, any consumer friendly DRM scheme needs to allow for UNLIMITED re-installs.  Period.  If the game is an offline game, it needs to allow for offline play after the initial "phone home".  Steam is a good example of this.  I buy a game, it phones home, I download it, I play offline.  Even better I can install that same game on any number of computers I own, which in my case is three Intel Macs.

Limited activations is not consumer friendly at all.  I've lost several pieces of software due to this.  When I upgraded all my machines to Intel, buh bye went a good chunk of my casual games bought from a certain publisher (who shall remain nameless).

Microsoft finally, FINALLY, implemented the ability to move DRM licenses on their Xbox 360 console from one machine to another.  This is perfect for folks like me who had their Xbox 360 fail, get returned to a retail store via a retail store service plan yet to come home and find all my licenses weren't available for offline use or by other people than myself.  Their new tool allowed me to migrate all my licenses from that console to my new one so I can now play those games offline again.

Companies need to protect their assets, I have no problem with that.  However, when I go out and pay $20, $40, or $60 for a game I want to know that in 20 years I can still play.  I really love those old SNES carts now.  They keep on ticking, no DRM.  Companies also need to consider that people upgrade their hardware devices.  Hardware devices break.  Software breaks.  Companies remove their DRM license servers (Yahoo! Music anyone? MS Music?).

In the age of the internet there has to be a better way yet it can not require constant internet access.  Ironic.

[teflon]

Nintendo's kind of sucks. They will admittedly replicate the game downloads and account from one Wii onto another, but only if said Wii has had a hardware failure. Other than that its stuck to the same wii forever

[digt]

Frigidman, on June 8th 2008, 12:21 PM, said:

Piracy = bad in any shape or form.
DRM = equally as bad.
Finding a way to legally own the game and destroy the DRM so you can play it = priceless.

Thats the perfect way to put it.

A joy of being a Mac gamer is that we can see that the developers care about and are really thinking about this problem (even if their solutions are imperfect).

[edddeduck]

gbafan, on July 28th 2008, 01:40 PM, said:

First and foremost, any consumer friendly DRM scheme needs to allow for UNLIMITED re-installs.  Period.  If the game is an offline game, it needs to allow for offline play after the initial "phone home".  Steam is a good example of this.  I buy a game, it phones home, I download it, I play offline.  Even better I can install that same game on any number of computers I own, which in my case is three Intel Macs.

That makes sense, although unlimited reinstalls would have to be linked to hardware in someway as you mentioned. If you are happy your Mac's serial number is recorded (to stop everyone in the world using one serial number) and having a cap on the number of concurrent machines (like Apple Store for example) this would be a good model I think.

gbafan, on July 28th 2008, 01:40 PM, said:

Limited activations is not consumer friendly at all.  I've lost several pieces of software due to this.  When I upgraded all my machines to Intel, buh bye went a good chunk of my casual games bought from a certain publisher (who shall remain nameless).

Limited activations when they are truly limited (5 installs and never again for example) are bad however I do agree with having a higher limit like 25 installs after which you need to contact the company and get your code reinstated. This would stop the situation of someone leaking the serial key everyone quickly activates the game then go offline, you now have lots of pirated games.

So yeah I agree but with some modifications to stop rampant piracy.

gbafan, on July 28th 2008, 01:40 PM, said:

Microsoft finally, FINALLY, implemented the ability to move DRM licenses on their Xbox 360 console from one machine to another.  This is perfect for folks like me who had their Xbox 360 fail, get returned to a retail store via a retail store service plan yet to come home and find all my licenses weren't available for offline use or by other people than myself.  Their new tool allowed me to migrate all my licenses from that console to my new one so I can now play those games offline again.

Companies need to protect their assets, I have no problem with that.  However, when I go out and pay $20, $40, or $60 for a game I want to know that in 20 years I can still play.  I really love those old SNES carts now.  They keep on ticking, no DRM.  Companies also need to consider that people upgrade their hardware devices.  Hardware devices break.  Software breaks.  Companies remove their DRM license servers (Yahoo! Music anyone? MS Music?).

Yeah, well that is true but hardware cart stuff like SNES games has something physical attached and that physical device (the cart) is your DRM. If you want to download it without anything physical you will have to live with the associated pain of having a DRM that is also not physical.

gbafan, on July 28th 2008, 01:40 PM, said:

In the age of the internet there has to be a better way yet it can not require constant internet access.  Ironic.

I think that was called a "CD/DVD in Drive Check" But people seem to be vastly against it and want some sort of media free check which means your DRM is media free which brings me back to the above part.

If you want something that will definitely play in 20 years time you will need a physical DRM system like CD checks. If you want the ease of use of grabbing it off the internet then you will need to trust the company will keep everything running. Personally I would think maybe having a timer limit on it that allows activation with a serial key and no online after lets say 10 to 20 years from release might cover your I want to play in 30 years comment.

However by judging the increase in speed of machines and the complexity of games over the last 20 years I think games like Bioshock might end up looking like our versions of Pacman in twenty years and people only play them for the odd nostalgia, but nothing like the games of today in terms of depth or graphics.

Hell in 30 years we might have games which are VR and look like real worlds rendering stuff making new games today look like pong.

Oh and the DRM will likely be cracked just like the SNES Emulators as computers might just be a wee bit more powerful than the old 8 core under my desk at work.

We will all most likely have computers called Nbd anyway.

Spoiler

really bad and obscure 2001 reference

Edwin

[Sylvan]

I'm glad to hear that EA is backing off a bit on their DRM scheme.

I used to pirate games when I was a kid.  There were a lot of cool games that I wanted to play, yet I had no job so there's no way I could have afforded to buy any of them.  Looking back now, I would have missed out on a lot of what I considered great years of gaming, had I chosen not to pirate anything.  I don't remember feeling like I was doing anything wrong, back then.

Now that I'm a bit older, wiser, and more mature, and have a good job, my attitude has changed significantly.  I don't pirate games anymore (haven't in years).  It's not just because I can readily afford to buy all the games I want, but moreseo because I feel the wrongness in enjoying for free something that people toiled over for many many hours.  I think they deserve to not just get paid for their work, but to be very successful as a result of their efforts, as they truly are doing us a service.  Without them, we would have no games.  (Then what would we do?  Exercise?  Socialize?  Ha!)  Obviously, for a development team to devote their professional lives to making cool games, there has to be financial incentive for them to do so.

So, what converted me from a pirate to legit consumer?  Well, money, of course, but mostly a shift in attitude.  No, it wasn't the CD-in-tray checks or activations that pursuaded me to pay for games.  I think it has to do with how we perceive the way in which our games our brought into existence.  As a young and naive gamer, I and my friends might have pictured a soulless corporate machine cranking out games that materialize on store shelves or on a download site.  Any big-name company that can afford to put boxes on thousands of store shelves must be worth millions, so why did they need my money?  Pirating was a way to stick it to the man, in a sense.  Ok, on to reality.  My attitudes started to change as I began to experience more personal interaction with certain developers.  For example, I might have visited the website of Spiderweb software, and read some of mr. Vogel's blogs or notes about his creations.  Some interaction with developers on this forum also helped to paint a more human picture behind the game creation process, and the idea that these were hard-working folks much like I am now.  It also has become less "cool" among my peers to pirate games.  I hear more people vocalizing their purchase of software, and it reinforces a mindset that it is the right thing to do.  

So, while I don't think anyone will stop piracy, I think gamers can mature and develop a more positive mindset.  This will not be accomplished by overly restrictive anti-piracy measures, but more through peer pressure, education, and outreach.  Developers should be doing everything they can to make themselves visible to their customers, so we see the humans behind the corporate machine.  Developer diaries, blogs, participation in forums, all help.  I know you guys are busy and don't have time to sit here and tell us how your day went.  But by engaging your audience, know that you are helping the cause.  Some anti-piracy measures are probably necessary - you don't want it to be too easy to copy games, or there might never be an incentive for some to save up for them.  But, alas, until they finally "get it," they probably wouldn't pay for the game anyway, they would wait until someone eventually cracked it.

Anyways, that's enough of my rambling.  I should get back to work

[The Liberator]

QuantaCat, on June 16th 2008, 05:20 PM, said:

…Or that Radiohead album. In the end, they made more than they did on regular sales. Or atleast just as much.

And I tip, not due to social pressure, because I don't care if some waiter looks at me in a funny way. I tip because I know these jobs pay like popsnizzle.

One of the reasons Radiohead has been so sucsessful is because of the fanatical fans who will pay more than top dollar wilingly and also they did not use a Record company to publish the album, so all of the revenue goes to the band and manager. Also, I do know in Australia waiters are paid a reasonable amount, but we still tip a few dollars.

edddeduck, on July 29th 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

If you want something that will definitely play in 20 years time you will need a physical DRM system like CD checks. If you want the ease of use of grabbing it off the internet then you will need to trust the company will keep everything running. Personally I would think maybe having a timer limit on it that allows activation with a serial key and no online after lets say 10 to 20 years from release might cover your I want to play in 30 years comment…

…Oh and the DRM will likely be cracked just like the SNES Emulators as computers might just be a wee bit more powerful than the old 8 core under my desk at work.

We will all most likely have computers called Nbd anyway.

Spoiler

really bad and obscure 2001 reference

Edwin

I do not really see the point of having games that have DRM over about a 7 or so year period. How many games for 2001 can you still buy and play today? Just about none, so I think people should go the way of making them free after a certain amount of years.

Also, I don't mind if he computers are called Nbd, just do not call them Hal, bad things might just happen.

Liberator HD 1.

[Brad Oliver]

Liberator HD 1, on August 18th 2008, 12:16 AM, said:

How many games for 2001 can you still buy and play today? Just about none, so I think people should go the way of making them free after a certain amount of years.

I'll grant you that few games from 2001 are still up for sale (usually because few people want to buy games of that age to make it worthwhile), but a number of those games are still playable today. It's been made harder on the Mac by Apple's constant transition-fest: classic to OS X, PowerPC to Intel, but many titles are hanging in there.

[Frigidman™]

On the PC side, its quite a bit easier to play older games. However many older games start griping that your hardware is "not meeting the minimums" ... cause, its just too old and simply doesn't understand a 9800 is BETTER than the GF4 it was made for. Or, older games don't like newer drivers for gpus... I've run into that one a bit, and tend to have a few driver packages I keep around that are like stages-in-time I can get games to run fine. Only a couple older games get finicky, most are fine with the new 1xx drivers of today.

But on the Mac, like Mr. Oliver mentioned... there has been some major 'walls' that simply break backwards compatibility. The biggest being classic to osx. I have TONS of classic games that simply refuse to run in classic-mode, and most don't have osx updates. I have a G4 that still allows native os9 install on it, and the sole purpose of that G4 now, is to run old games.