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How many Mac-Games do you buy each year?


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#21 Mister Mumbles

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:37 PM

I only buy a few... and really only shareware/indie games, these days. My Mac's age is definitely showing, and I do the majority of my gaming on consoles. Especially after having experienced some rather disappointing AAA Mac ports I just started losing interest.
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#22 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:52 PM

I haven't bought very many lately but there haven't been many to buy that I'm interested in and I can also run on my Mac. To be honest I haven't even been playing the games I do have very much. It's almost as if I'm losing interest in actually playing games a lot but I like to read and write about them. :P
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#23 Sargiel

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 02:30 AM

I buy quite a few. I try not to go crazy so I've got a chance of completing at least one before I buy in some more but ... ;)

I'd say over a year 10-15 depending on what's being released. This doesn't include any expansions as I buy those as a matter of course. Beyond the Sword please :D

#24 Huntn

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 06:56 AM

The only Mac native games I'm buying these days are casual games for my wife's enjoyment. Prior to my MBP I was buying some AAA Mac ports (like Civilization IV & Warcraft III) for the purpose of playing on the road. Today with my bootcamp capable MBP I've purchased 0 Mac native games for myself and approx 5 PC games. I'll emphasize that none of these games have been ported to the Mac as of yet. In the last year, I've made somewhat of a leap and have purchased 6 or so XBox 360 titles. Console gaming is now palatable to me, especially on a large screen tv.

I note Aspyr is getting firmly entrenched into PC game publishing and I view it as a survival move which under the circumstances is reasonable. I just hope they are still making a strong effort to port Mac games. If all things were equal, at least the things important to me such as price, performance, and a fairly close release date parity, I'd prefer getting the Mac version of the game. But I don't think that is destined. And for those hard core Mac gamer types who are getting cozy with Windows on their Macs, there isn't even any guarantee that Apple will be supporting Windows on Mac for the indefinite future. Sometime this year, I'll be purchasing/building a new PC game box.

View PostBrad Oliver, on March 28th 2008, 03:39 AM, said:

Well let's be fair here: a chunk of those "40+" games you bought are over 3 years old and some are far older than that. The PC hasn't gone through quite the same OS turmoil that the Mac has seen since many of those games were released (some of the titles date back to the 68k Mac era!), so it's a lot easier to resell older PC games.

View PostBrad Oliver, on March 28th 2008, 02:16 PM, said:

In the past, it appears there wasn't a lot of thought given towards the contractual necessities for long-term maintenance and revenue for Mac ports.

There was a time where I could play an OS7 game in OS9. It seems with OSX that the breaking of games is much easier with each incremental OS update, than it was under the older Mac OSs. I think the problem also exists on the PC side, but there, is it fair to say, there is more money to address the problem?

And as a rule, I think the amount of money in PC games, makes the rerelease of popular games as "classics" doable. With the way Mac games are ported and financed, and the size of the market, there just isn't any money for such things. So Mac games are much more of capsulated project. Some old games are still available but usually they have a "run" and as sales fall off, that's it. A couple of years down the road, it can be very difficult to purchase the game, which as a rule makes the price of used Mac games much higher than their PC counterparts. Some old Mac games sell for as much as $75 on ebay.

Here's a case of a game you can find in The Apple Store (at least I found it recently)- Never Winter Nights (the original) and the last time I checked they were asking something close to the original full price which is astounding to me, and a reflection of the Mac market. Never Winter Nights should be selling for no more than $16 new. The old Mac games that you can still purchase new are way overpriced as compared to the other platforms.

#25 Lemon Lime

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 09:55 AM

maybe 5-10 Mac games a year, 20-25 PC/360 games.

#26 Tesseract

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 10:54 AM

View PostHuntn, on March 30th 2008, 11:56 PM, said:

There was a time where I could play an OS7 game in OS9.
There was also a time, not too long past, when I could play (some) games from the System 6 era on Tiger (via Classic of course).

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It seems with OSX that the breaking of games is much easier with each incremental OS update, than it was under the older Mac OSs.
How soon we forget the horrors of non-32-bit-clean apps, apps patching 68k traps, and the breakage that came with System 7 and Mac OS 8.

#27 QuantaCat

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 12:30 PM

View PostBrad Oliver, on March 29th 2008, 03:13 AM, said:

Money. The Mac publisher pays for the right to publish expansions, so agreeing ahead of time to publish the expansion when the sales aren't proven carries a risk. It used to be expansions were rubber-stamped almost blindly because they were almost always "free money", but I think getting burned on a few of them has led to the current state of affairs. That said, I don't know that the deal is with the Beyond the Sword expansion for Civ4 given that Warlords made it - lack of manpower (my ego tells me this must be true) or poor sales of Mac Warlords maybe?

I heard about poor sales of Warlords or somesuch. Also, it seems to be that Aspyr is a three man team, like you, glenda, and probably someone who packages the games or something :D (and you're not even in the team anymore)

Quote

I can't tell if you feel that failure to secure the toolsets/editors is the Mac publisher's fault but if so, I strongly disagree. It's true that their absence sends a bad message to the customer, but to assume that the Mac publisher rolled over and died is simply wrong. Unfortunately, Mac porting houses lack a lot of leverage for many of these negotiations, be they editors or full games.

I am aware of many contracts that either fell apart over simply ridiculous demands like a certain company's "1 meelion dollars" for a certain high-profile game or "no, you can't have source code but we'd love for you to do a Mac version" - lack of code access came up more than any sensible person would think possible. I know of a few times where the PC code was even "lost" (usually around the time a company would fold) - wtf. And I remember more than once trying to get patch code out of a PC developer in a reasonable time-frame and having to wait months(!!) to get any kind of traction. One PC developer even went so far as to say "stop asking us - you'll get the code when we're ready." But now I'm just being bitter and rambling. ;) The end result is the same: the appearance of lack of quality or concern in the Mac port, and it sucked every single time it happened. I hated having my hands tied like that, and it's one of the reasons I left Aspyr. I've never asked the guys at Omni why they stopped (aside from the PR they put out) but I'd wager this was a major issue for them.

Maybe the problem lies in the isolation of the mac platform, what I mean is that there are no sole mac games being developed. Not one. And if it is, then it's highly likely going to be a casual game that highly likely has a windows version waiting for it. People don't want to put money on a system that is bought a lot, but not as much as a PC system. It's an unsure bet, and if they do, they don't want it to be too "breaking" or "original", because then it might be that the only few that DO play games on the mac, natively, might be turned off by it.

In order to remedy this, I suggest the following (to whomever with money and guts):

1) found a company with different development teams.
2) engage some good designers, engage some brand new designers, let them mingle.
3) engage the teams necessary to program/conceptualise/do graphics for the sound designs that come out of this "think tank"
4) engage a good advertising company, this is just as important as everything else.
5) develop mac only games, for "regular" prices. (40-50€)

For some reason, if the designers aren't at all daft or unoriginal, this will sell like hot cakes, whatever comes out of it. Because a) it's only available on mac, and b) this company can produce different genres/games at the same time. also, point 4 might even ensure people knowing about this being a mac only franchise, and the whole porting business will ease a bit, since it's not just a "why should you get any money for eating our table scraps".

It will remind people that the mac platform isn't just for creative and flashy people, it's just a gaming platform like every computer is. I'm pretty sure those rocket guidance computers play a mean game of Doom.
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#28 Frost

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 01:27 PM

View PostQuantaCat, on March 30th 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure those rocket guidance computers play a mean game of Doom.
Naw.

Now, those new TACANs on the other hand... ;)
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#29 Janichsan

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 01:30 PM

Sounds easier said than done. Modern AAA titles take millions of dollars to develop – and to develop a Mac only game that keeps up with recent Windows AAA titles, you would have to spent as much. No Mac game ever would make that much money. Face it, pals: the Mac market for such game is far too small.

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#30 Whaleman

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 01:57 PM

You got Mac only games... The "problem" is that these are made by companies like Ambrosia Software, Pangea, Freeverse, Strange Flavour and the like. You just can't found bigger games for such a limited market only. And I'm not complaining, because the games those people do kick serious butt. Today it seems even PC gaming isn't worth developing as many exclusive titles for, since more and more companies are switching to consoles as primary development platform, and only a few select titles stay purely PC exclusive... most of them MMOs and RTSs.

One would think that in such a multiplatform world as we have, the game developers and publishers (above all I guess) would push towards getting all computer games on hybrid Windows/Linux/Mac discs to optimize the market... but then it would do less then optimizing the development costs... forcing people away from the DirectX APIs that they seem to love.
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#31 Huntn

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 06:15 AM

View PostTesseract, on March 30th 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

There was also a time, not too long past, when I could play (some) games from the System 6 era on Tiger (via Classic of course).
How soon we forget the horrors of non-32-bit-clean apps, apps patching 68k traps, and the breakage that came with System 7 and Mac OS 8.

I did not think about that nor have tried it. Good point. I started on System 7 and don't remember the horrors. :)

View PostJanichsan, on March 30th 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

Sounds easier said than done. Modern AAA titles take millions of dollars to develop – and to develop a Mac only game that keeps up with recent Windows AAA titles, you would have to spent as much. No Mac game ever would make that much money. Face it, pals: the Mac market for such game is far too small.

First there is Blizzard which proves that simo development is possible. I'm guessing the company wants to do it and is willing to spend the extra time and money, but then I'd say that your right. As a generality, the only reason we see any big name Mac games is because of the porters.

#32 QuantaCat

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 06:53 AM

No, janichsan, that's where you're wrong. That is what every big company is trying to make you believe, because they are a corporation and they want to have a lot of money, so they spend a lot of money.

But if you have a team of people that are dedicated, then you're one step ahead. I doubt that The Witcher's developers were a million dollar company before they made it.


So they've proven that all you need is a good story/backstory, and a capable publisher, or knowhow to do it yourself. (the witcher wasn't actually *intended* for the american market, making it a very small scope indeed)

I think people are hooked on polish. Take HL2 and Portal for example. Portal is simple enough: I doubt it took more than a couple of weeks to actually program. The people that did it, knew their engine, knew their language, and knew their craft. If you somehow get an engine that runs great on macs, like Unreal3 or somesuch, people that know their way around it, AND the same people that are prepared to work with it on this single platform, then you don't need millions and millions, just a few ;D (but no more than the average gaming developers)


Look at the independant PS2 developers. Wasn't Collossus and that other game, where you play a painting wolf or something, made by independant developers under Capcom? Ah whatever, in any case, I don't think you need millions. (and I have to admit, I would have loved to be a game designer, if not for this "omg we spend a milion on yuo, now maek us a blokkbustar!!!?1ß1ßßLOL!"
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#33 Janichsan

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:31 AM

View PostQuantaCat, on March 31st 2008, 02:53 PM, said:

No, janichsan, that's where you're wrong. That is what every big company is trying to make you believe, because they are a corporation and they want to have a lot of money, so they spend a lot of money.

But if you have a team of people that are dedicated, then you're one step ahead. I doubt that The Witcher's developers were a million dollar company before they made it.
So they've proven that all you need is a good story/backstory, and a capable publisher, or knowhow to do it yourself. (the witcher wasn't actually *intended* for the american market, making it a very small scope indeed)
Bad example. CD Projekt - The Witcher's original distributor and owner of the developing studio - is a big eastern European publisher. They do - for example - the Polish, Czech and Hungarian versions of all Disney games, a lot of Microsoft games, all SEGA games, and so on. All these usually sell far more copies in Eastern Europe alone than any Mac game world-wide. To cut it short: they are a big company and make a yotz-load of money. So, they not only had dedication, but also money.

Quote

I think people are hooked on polish. Take HL2 and Portal for example. Portal is simple enough: I doubt it took more than a couple of weeks to actually program.
Then you are wrong. Portal's development took more than a year.

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#34 QuantaCat

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:36 AM

Well then I give up. It's been nice, mac games!
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#35 Janichsan

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 08:30 AM

View PostQuantaCat, on March 31st 2008, 03:36 PM, said:

Well then I give up. It's been nice, mac games!
I mean, don't get me wrong: you can certainly make a bloody good game with an inspired and dedicated team and without much money. The problem is just that these games pale in comparison to the multi-million dollar games and simply don't draw the masses. "Shadow of the Colossus" and "Okami" which you mentioned are excellent examples: those are marvellous games – they just didn't sell. And now take a look at the games that did sell: "Call of Duty 4", "Crysis", "Halo 3" – all multi-million productions that put glitz over gameplay.

It is as you said: people are hooked on polish. Unfortunately.

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#36 teflon

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 08:53 AM

to clarify on what Janich said about Portal. It was created as a final university project with its own separate engine. It was spotted by Valve who then got in touch with the group of students who had all then graduated and hired the entire team (I believe of only 6 people or something, but im not entirely sure). they all joined and set to work on adapting the Source engine to work with the portals (theres a lot of trickery going on in the background to do with physics, bounding boxes for the portals and all kinds of crazy shizzle). With it being tied into the Orange Box, they were given plenty of time to get the game just right, and it took them over 2 years to go from being hired to the final product. Of course, Im sure that most of the engine and game was done within 1 year or so, with extensive amounts of testing and play modification going on for the last year to get it just right.

because it was Valve, they got to take their time and thats why its so good. If it had been released after a year it wouldnt have been as fun.

But that just means that Portal and Valve was a bad example for you to use. They go through endless revisions of a game before they release. TF2 went through around 3-4 different styles before settling on the one they did. They scrapped various additional characters etc. etc. its mental the amount of work they go through.

a better example, perhaps, would be Sins of a Solar Empire. Its graphics arent too glitzy (in fact, they decided against moving turrets etc. to keep system reqs down), though I believe they wrote the engine from the ground up etc. etc. hence why it took them around 4 years to release.

another example would be Epic and UE3. Yeah, yeah, I know its a big company and their engine costs a lot, but that engine is very adaptable to various genres. Practically anything 3D, from UT3 to EndWar to Gears of War Golf...
yeah, you heard. As a demo to show what the engine could do to a potential customer who was wary of licensing it for their __insert genre here___ game, Epic took assets from Gears of War, knocked them together into a makeshift golf course, tweaked the physics and created the custom animations to do so and created a little game of Gears of War Golf in a day. Within the span of GDC last year, I believe.
Add to that custom asset creation, further and more refined physics tweaking, course creation, play testing and beta testing and for a fully fledged golf game your looking at 1/2 to 3/4 of a year depending on scale.. Of course, other genres can take longer. FPSs, RTSs both need fine balancing, performance tweaks and more asset creation. RPGs need massive amounts of content and even more beta testing... Golf games are "easy"

but for a mac exclusive game, youd never see someone license the UE3 engine. Nor would you see a developer spending 4 years on a 4x game when the PC gaming market is so much bigger.
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#37 Whaleman

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:02 AM

View PostJanichsan, on March 31st 2008, 03:31 PM, said:

Bad example. CD Projekt - The Witcher's original distributor and owner of the developing studio - is a big eastern European publisher. They do - for example - the Polish, Czech and Hungarian versions of all Disney games, a lot of Microsoft games, all SEGA games, and so on. All these usually sell far more copies in Eastern Europe alone than any Mac game world-wide. To cut it short: they are a big company and make a yotz-load of money. So, they not only had dedication, but also money.
Then you are wrong. Portal's development took more than a year.


If I'm not mistaken, the Witcher expanded the studio to become like 60 people and the final development cost ending up at like 8 million dollars over 5 years.
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#38 QuantaCat

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:41 AM

Just recapping what you've been agreeing with me on anyway: what some of you are mentioning is that to make a game "polished", you need millions and millions. (for my standards, polish is what you apply when everything *works*) This I agree on. But to make a game *solid*, all you need is testing. Lots and lots of testing, and feedback. And people that listen to it, and translate it, if necessary, to the people that make it work. Communication is the most important thing. It's true that I think of games as an art form (and art is, to my understanding, a form of communication), so everyone can make it. Of course, this is interactive art, so everyone can not only hear/see/feel it, but also shape it. I'm not saying that the game should be there just to be there (there are enough of those games around already: The Guild, Sim City Societies, Spore, Sims, similar titles like these), I'm not saying there shouldn't be a competitive side, it should just be balanced between free-form, and structure.


Ultimately, I think we should start a gaming company, find some sponsors, and make it mac only. I would love it, it would eliminate the needs of the many (since there aren't that many mac people around), and strangely, most mac users' tastes are similar. Of course, we would have to have some sponsors that don't impede, or atleast not much. They should have their financial objectives, which is ok, but not be rigid about them, and untrusting.

I've worked as a designer in my spare time, for board games, and some PC game that never did get released. And my current work as a film post-production artist/technician has been.. underwhelming to say the least. I make like minimum wage doing that, not even.

Basically, I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to say here. I have ideas, lots and lots of them, and I seem to think I need someone else to put them into practice. When I fix this, I'll be back to enlist anyone with enough zeal to achieve this together.

Now I go play with my kids, they just built a GIGANTIC train railway (BRIO/Eisenhorn, those wooden train track sets) They're the real innovators here, and all they do is watch and play.
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#39 D-M.A.

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:44 AM

My last two Mac games were Stubbs the Zombie and Ford Racing 2. Unfortunately neither ran well on any sort of Mac I had, even though I was well above recommended requirements, so I gave up on Mac gaming after that. Feral seems to actually have released a universal patch for Ford Racing 2! Took a few years, but still good news, lol!

#40 AussieMacGamer

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:10 AM

I haven't bought a mac game since call of Duty 2... so August 2006 :mellow: man that's sad.

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