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#21 Quicksilver

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:27 PM

Actually, you can, but I can't write about that.
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#22 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:50 PM

I just hope no one thinks that you'll only ever need dual core and that you'll never need quad core or more if you are a gamer.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

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#23 Quicksilver

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 10:18 PM

I think that everyone who knows a bit about gaming hardware realizes that dual core is a necessity, and quad core is a great advantage in games like Crysis.
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#24 Frost

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 12:21 AM

View PostQuicksilver, on January 17th 2008, 08:27 PM, said:

Actually, you can, but I can't write about that.
Well, I mean actually run it though, not those Frankenmacs that have incompatibilities flying out the wazoo. Might as well just use Windows at that point.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#25 madmax_2069

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 04:36 PM

i think its lame that most of the newer Games on Mac are going to be intel only. one reason i say this is cause a G4 and G5's can have a better video card then what is out for PPC Mac's officially, ever look at www.themacelite.com. they allow you to flash a number of high end cards for PC to Mac. but most makers/porting houses look at what the system shipped with and its BTO options and not what can be done.

a 6800 GT, 7800 GS and maybe higher ones would enable a PPC Mac to play these, altho maybe not as fast as a intel Mac but not slow enough to be unplayable. what ever happened to UB (universal binary) or did they give up on it.

#26 Frost

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 05:05 PM

View Postmadmax_2069, on January 18th 2008, 04:36 PM, said:

i think its lame that most of the newer Games on Mac are going to be intel only. one reason i say this is cause a G4 and G5's can have a better video card then what is out for PPC Mac's officially, ever look at www.themacelite.com. they allow you to flash a number of high end cards for PC to Mac. but most makers/porting houses look at what the system shipped with and its BTO options and not what can be done.

a 6800 GT, 7800 GS and maybe higher ones would enable a PPC Mac to play these, altho maybe not as fast as a intel Mac but not slow enough to be unplayable. what ever happened to UB (universal binary) or did they give up on it.
While you're absolutely right, the number of people with flashed 6800s in their G4s/G5s are so infinitesimally small as to not be anywhere near worth (monetarily) producing games for them.

What Apple really ought to do is release 8800s, etc. for the G5s. Lord knows they extended the life of many of us G4 users by offering that GeForce 4 Ti4600 upgrade on the Apple Store way back when. That would open up a crapton of options for G5 owners, and make PPC versions likely justifiable.

That won't happen, though.
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Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / 2TB Samsung 850 Pro / GeForce GT 650M 1GB

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#27 teflon

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 06:43 PM

View PostFrost, on January 18th 2008, 06:21 AM, said:

Well, I mean actually run it though, not those Frankenmacs that have incompatibilities flying out the wazoo. Might as well just use Windows at that point.

ah yes, but now that the 8800GT is officially supported, the most popular card of the moment is now compatible with the OS natively. So theres no real trouble to get it working. Add to that using Ralink based wireless 802.11n and youve got yourself a computer that can be a mac aswell, a decent gaming machine, and connect wirelessly. after that its pretty much speciality add ons. So really, aside from GPU troubles, theres rarely much standing in your way, and now with the 8800GT theres not even that.

except, of course, for knowing how to do it.
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#28 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 03:30 AM

View PostFrost, on January 18th 2008, 04:05 PM, said:

What Apple really ought to do is release 8800s, etc. for the G5s. Lord knows they extended the life of many of us G4 users by offering that GeForce 4 Ti4600 upgrade on the Apple Store way back when. That would open up a crapton of options for G5 owners, and make PPC versions likely justifiable.

That won't happen, though.

They probably don't want to give PPC users an excuse to hang on to their old systems. I think they knew that UB support will taper off sooner or later as well. They've even made it easy for Tiger support to taper off with making it easy to make apps in the new interface builder that will only run on Leopard. But of course they are a for profit business and want to make money so of course they will do things like that.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

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Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7


#29 Eric5h5

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 02:57 PM

View PostQuicksilver, on January 17th 2008, 09:16 PM, said:

Personally, I see no reason to buy a Mac Pro unless you're doing scientific/creative work in Mac OS X.

Well...that DOES account for a rather large number of OS X users...including more than a few on this forum....  Also, it's pretty much the only choice for Mac users who don't want an all-in-one.  (Aside from the Mini, with its useless integrated graphics etc.)

--Eric

#30 iRolley

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:04 PM

View PostEric5h5, on January 19th 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

Well...that DOES account for a rather large number of OS X users...including more than a few on this forum....  Also, it's pretty much the only choice for Mac users who don't want an all-in-one.  (Aside from the Mini, with its useless integrated graphics etc.)

--Eric

It might be the only choice, but its much too "through the roof". Error correction memory, 8 cores, Xeon, four hard drive bays... These  mac are now completely aimed at "professionals", read, people earning their money using that machine. That's why they are so expensive. It is hard to justify paying that much when it's for running iLife, Safari, Mail, TextMate and a few games.

The "expandable" tower for "the rest of us" is still a dream away...

#31 Quicksilver

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:52 PM

Very true, Eric.  However, I always think of the classic "chicken and the egg"  question whenever I hear about the low number of Mac gamers relative to graphics professionals.  Here's my quick take on the situation:

- From a gaming standpoint, the usage of the Xeon processor and accompanying architecture is moronic.  Not only is it slower, it's more expensive and lacks the ability to concatenate GPUs.

- The thing that a lot of Mac users don't understand is that the Mac Pro IS a mid-range machine.  The only two things that make it appear to be a high-end machine are its eight processors and $3000 price tag.  For anything short of high end, pro/scientific-grade work, six of the processors are being wasted.  In order to make the Mac Pro a high end machine, you have to drop in a RAID array, replace the video card, and install another 2-6 GB of RAM.  

- If Apple were to create a high end machine (3.2 GHz Core 2 Duo, 1 TB twin drive RAID 0 array, single/dual 8800-series graphics, 4-8 GB RAM), they'd probably charge $5000.  If they did that, it'd never sell, because I can build one today for under $2000 when you count buying Windows, a nice monitor, and a new mouse and keyboard:
  • Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 "Kentsfield" (2.4 GHz overclocked with air cooling to 3.5 GHz minimum): $280
  • 8 GB (4x2GB) DDR2 800 SDRAM by Corsair: $150.
  • EVGA 8800GT 512MB (two of 'em): $500
  • ASUS P5E LGA 775 Intel X38 Motherboard: $230
  • Western Digital Caviar SE 500 GB hard drive (two of 'em): $200
  • Lite-On 20X DVD±RW DVD burner (two of 'em): $60
  • Antec Nine Hundred ATX Case (yes it's ugly, but it works very well, and it's very popular): $80
  • Thermaltake Purepower W0106RU 700W power supply: $120 (if you're going single GPU, then the $60, 500-watt W0100RU will be fine)
Total Price:
Dual 8800GT configuration -- $1620 (not counting odds and ends)
Single 8800GT configuration -- $1310 (not counting odds and ends)

If you want to check out the whole dual-GPU configuration, I created a wish list on Newegg here.  Be sure to note the mail-in rebates.  If you want a "how-to" article detailing the construction of this machine, set-up, and gaming performance comparisons, email me (click on my name in my signature).  The only way that Tuncer will okay this kind of article is if we get a huge response.
Former Senior Hardware Editor
InsideMacGames.com

#32 Janichsan

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 04:07 AM

View PostQuicksilver, on January 20th 2008, 12:52 AM, said:

The only way that Tuncer will okay this kind of article is if we get a huge response.
Why the heck should there ever be an article about building a custom Windows PC on InsideMacGames?

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#33 iRolley

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 05:12 AM

View PostJanichsan, on January 20th 2008, 04:07 AM, said:

Why the heck should there ever be an article about building a custom Windows PC on InsideMacGames?

I agree. I am tired of the same old debate whether Mac is cheaper or more expensive than PC. Who cares? Most people first decide whether they'll get a Mac, Linux or Windows, and THEN choose their hardware.

The real issue for most of us here, is that none of Apple's hardware is meant for games. We keep on wondering why doesn't Apple release an iMac with upgradable GPU, or at least a special iMac with a high end GPU.

#34 Quicksilver

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:59 PM

View PostJanichsan, on January 20th 2008, 04:07 AM, said:

Why the heck should there ever be an article about building a custom Windows PC on InsideMacGames?

Because Mac gaming is dead, and arguably, has been dead for five years.  The purpose of an article about building a Windows PC would be to build one from a Mac perspective--in other words, to build a PC that looks good (or at least less ugly) than a typical custom rig.  Once that's done, the next step would be to show Mac users how to built a setup with a KVM switch that will essentially allow you to flip from a Mac to that custom PC and back again in less than five seconds.  The final step would be a guide to customizing Windows to make it more Mac like.*

*Or better yet, run Mac OS X on the Windows box, but that'll never happen.
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#35 Eric5h5

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 09:22 PM

View PostQuicksilver, on January 20th 2008, 09:59 PM, said:

Because Mac gaming is dead, and arguably, has been dead for five years.

Then this site shouldn't exist at all, and we'd be reading your article on a website that would actually be appropriate.  Using "looks good" as the main criterion of what is "Mac-like" strikes me as rather odd; that's very much a secondary attribute at best--it gets 'em in the door, but isn't what keeps 'em.  Fooling around with secondary computers and KVM switches and so on is pretty much the opposite of "Mac-like".  Don't get me wrong; that sort of thing can be very fun and I spent years hacking around with hardware, but it's not really interesting anymore.

--Eric

#36 Janichsan

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 05:13 AM

View PostQuicksilver, on January 21st 2008, 03:59 AM, said:

Because Mac gaming is dead, and arguably, has been dead for five years.
Yes! Finally!!! After a few months break, it's back at last:

The official Mac Gaming Is Dead™ Thread!!!

But seriously: articles about BootCamp or Windows virtualisations on Mac - okay. It's on the limit, but at least there is a Mac involved so it's justified to bring something like this on IMG. But an article about building a custom PC? That has nothing to do with Macs at all and there are dozens - if not hundreds - sites out there on that topic. I see absolutely not a single reason to report something on this on a site that is dedicated to Mac gaming.

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#37 mattw

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:06 PM

View PostJanichsan, on January 21st 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

Yes! Finally!!! After a few months break, it's back at last:
The official Mac Gaming Is Dead™ Thread!!!

I keep reading all these "I can build a Mac Pro for less" articles that keep appearing on the web and so far none of the systems described are anything like the Mac Pro. From what I can see the Mac Pro is competitively priced for a Xeon Workstation. I understand that a Xeon Workstation would not be the first choice for the hardcore PC gaming fan but I'm also fairly confident that percentage wise the number of users in the PC gaming market itself that run SLI or Crossfire, look for the most over-clockable processor or the lowest latency RAM is pretty small.

All these technology are interesting but the benefits they provide are generally not that worthwhile for most users that they justify inclusion in a general model. Apple are not going to have a Alienware type division any time soon. You can probably be confident that todays SLI setup will be matched by tomorrows single card anyway. Maybe one day this kind of thing will be more mainstream or maybe it will be multiple GPUs on a single card.

To me the advantage of the Mac Pro is that it is a well made computer (easy to work in and very quiet) which runs OS X fully supported, can cope with many demanding tasks that gaming systems would not do so well at and will also happen to give you more than adequate performance for todays games. The 8800GT card seems like a good option for the Mac as it near enough to the top to give good performance in todays games and I'd rather have that today then replace it with a new card in a year or two.

The other thing that makes the Mac Pro a reasonable investment is of course the resale value. A home made computer will never hold value very well. From all I have read on these forums many of use have had many years of gaming out of our G4 and G5 machines and could easily have spent more over this time period had we built our own PC instead.
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#38 PeopleLikeFrank

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:25 PM

I dunno, I recently upgraded my CPU, motherboard and RAM, and managed to make back around 75% of what I paid for the new parts by selling the old on eBay. Granted the old parts were only about two years old, and I got the new bits on sale, but being able to do a pretty substantial upgrade for about $100 is pretty much beyond anything in the Apple world.

I agree that the MP is not so badly priced for a workstation, but then that's not most folk's gripe, which is that it's not great for gaming, and that there's no real Apple alternative. I don't think most folks even need anything like what Alienware offers - just a tower with a regular desktop C2D/Q and non-FB RAM would be enough. SLI is gravy, but of limited value.
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#39 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 04:45 PM

View PostQuicksilver, on January 19th 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

Very true, Eric.  However, I always think of the classic "chicken and the egg"  question whenever I hear about the low number of Mac gamers relative to graphics professionals.  Here's my quick take on the situation:

- From a gaming standpoint, the usage of the Xeon processor and accompanying architecture is moronic.  Not only is it slower, it's more expensive and lacks the ability to concatenate GPUs.

- The thing that a lot of Mac users don't understand is that the Mac Pro IS a mid-range machine.  The only two things that make it appear to be a high-end machine are its eight processors and $3000 price tag.  For anything short of high end, pro/scientific-grade work, six of the processors are being wasted.  In order to make the Mac Pro a high end machine, you have to drop in a RAID array, replace the video card, and install another 2-6 GB of RAM.  

- If Apple were to create a high end machine (3.2 GHz Core 2 Duo, 1 TB twin drive RAID 0 array, single/dual 8800-series graphics, 4-8 GB RAM), they'd probably charge $5000.  If they did that, it'd never sell, because I can build one today for under $2000 when you count buying Windows, a nice monitor, and a new mouse and keyboard:
  • Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 "Kentsfield" (2.4 GHz overclocked with air cooling to 3.5 GHz minimum): $280
  • 8 GB (4x2GB) DDR2 800 SDRAM by Corsair: $150.
  • EVGA 8800GT 512MB (two of 'em): $500
  • ASUS P5E LGA 775 Intel X38 Motherboard: $230
  • Western Digital Caviar SE 500 GB hard drive (two of 'em): $200
  • Lite-On 20X DVD±RW DVD burner (two of 'em): $60
  • Antec Nine Hundred ATX Case (yes it's ugly, but it works very well, and it's very popular): $80
  • Thermaltake Purepower W0106RU 700W power supply: $120 (if you're going single GPU, then the $60, 500-watt W0100RU will be fine)
Total Price:
Dual 8800GT configuration -- $1620 (not counting odds and ends)
Single 8800GT configuration -- $1310 (not counting odds and ends)

If you want to check out the whole dual-GPU configuration, I created a wish list on Newegg here.  Be sure to note the mail-in rebates.  If you want a "how-to" article detailing the construction of this machine, set-up, and gaming performance comparisons, email me (click on my name in my signature).  The only way that Tuncer will okay this kind of article is if we get a huge response.

Its true that PC's are cheap. But they also suck (operating system). Also some people by computers for reasons other then gaming (For work etc.) and so they want one thats not getting a virus every 30 seconds online (or if they dont want that they can constantly maintain a tedious virus protection application). My iMac is stellar for pretty much everything except for gaming (and its still fine for all my classics favourites like AoE II and Halo UB). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you want a good gaming computer Quicksilver why don't you just get one. Your always raving about how much macs suck for gaming and how windows and direct x blow us macs out of the water (its true mostly, for gaming). I bet if you sold your MBP you could get a pretty penny for it and buy your dream computer you listed there.



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#40 Quicksilver

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 10:13 AM

SS, obviously, you're still stuck in the 1995 "PCs are horrible" mentality.  I don't see you playing anything relatively recent, and I see no evidence that you use Windows on a regular basis.  Therefore, I'd think twice about condemning Windows before you've actually spent a serious amount of time with one of your own PCs.  For instance, if you don't use Outlook and Internet Explorer (two horrible programs that you should avoid), you find that you can run Windows XP with the firewall down and no virus protection without ever catching a virus.  I have two PC boxes that have been running like that for over a year now without ever concocting a virus.

I agree that your iMac is perfectly fine for everything but modern games.  My love of Mac OS X and Apple's hardware aesthetics have never wavered, but Apple's complete and total inability to create a viable gaming platform is as undeniable as the fact that their mice have always sucked.  ;)  My constant suggestions to build a PC system is simply what I see as the best solution to make the PC aspect of gaming (which I view as platform independent) transparent.  Obviously, the best solution would be to have Apple blow away everyone, but I don't think that's going to happen--the things that they'd have to do to dominate in that way run completely counter to Apple/Steve's operating procedures.
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