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PC community lashes out against Guitar Hero


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#21 Janichsan

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 12:12 PM

View PostAuron, on December 17th 2007, 05:20 PM, said:

I'm kinda confused as to why they chose to port the 360 version. Why not port the PS2 version, with less spiffy graphics, and maximize your audience? Seems like a major mistake on their part. Its not Call of Duty 4 or something here, you don't need the most amazing graphics for guitar hero.
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#22 AussieMacGamer

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 07:07 PM

View PostAuron, on December 18th 2007, 03:20 AM, said:

Its not Call of Duty 4 or something here, you don't need the most amazing graphics for guitar hero.

it sure isnt Call Of Duty 4 because Cod4 runs like a dream on most computers.

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#23 Frost

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 09:28 PM

I think I might be the only person left on this planet who cannot fathom the appeal of the Guitar Hero games. Everyone I know raves about them, and yet whenever I play, I seem to be treated to this mind-melting simon-says button mashing while, if I'm lucky, a selection from my MP3 collection plays in the background, or, if I'm unlucky, a selection from the playlist of some annoying contemporary with horrible taste in music plays.

What am I missing?
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#24 Auron

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 11:56 PM

View PostAussieMacGamer, on December 17th 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

it sure isnt Call Of Duty 4 because Cod4 runs like a dream on most computers.

Certainly, but releasing a rhythm game where you're watching the notes more than anything, porting a version that results in insane requirements, and performance that appears to stink on even great computers is just dumb, plain and simple. Its not a problem on the 360, because well they all have the same hardware, but this makes zero sense for PCs, especially for a more casual game that now many people without amazing hardware can't play. I'd like to see someone explain to me why Aspyr didn't port the less hardware intensive PS2 version, and I doubt they'd be able to provide a good answer.

#25 Tesseract

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:02 AM

View PostAuron, on December 18th 2007, 04:56 PM, said:

I'd like to see someone explain to me why Aspyr didn't port the less hardware intensive PS2 version, and I doubt they'd be able to provide a good answer.
Best guess: because the 360/PS3 version is shinier, and by the time they realised they wouldn't be able to get it to perform well enough, it was too late. Hindsight is 20/20.

#26 Brad Oliver

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 04:42 AM

View PostAuron, on December 17th 2007, 11:56 PM, said:

I'd like to see someone explain to me why Aspyr didn't port the less hardware intensive PS2 version, and I doubt they'd be able to provide a good answer.

That sounds like a challenge, so I'll venture a guess! :)

I'd wager the Xbox 360 version was based on a fairly vanilla DirectX codebase. If so, you can port that to the Mac a lot quicker than a PS2 version written in some PS2-specific 3D API that is threaded up the wazoo and relies on all kinds of custom DSPs interacting at a hardware register level, particularly if time-to-market is a serious consideration. Or put another way, the PS2 and PS3 are not known for being easy to program for. The Xbox and Xbox 360 are very easy because they use a modified form of DirectX.
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#27 AussieMacGamer

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:55 AM

Owned




Hey Brad, i thought you werent allowed to be on forums anymore seeing as you got a shiny apple badge and whatnot nowadays :huh:


anyways, i am seriously doubting my purchase of this game and my cousins christmas/birthday gift, until this problem gets cleared up. is there anyone from Aspyr who can clarify what is going on? because there seems to be more to it than just high system reqs. most of the people who complain of the jitters say that nothing they can do in terms of adjusting these settings will fix the jitters. so im no hardware Guru but i'd say that there is an underlying problem hidden in the cracks which is causing the jitters. could it be fixed with a patch?

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#28 DaveyJJ

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 08:11 AM

View PostFrost, on December 17th 2007, 10:28 PM, said:

I think I might be the only person left on this planet who cannot fathom the appeal of the Guitar Hero games. Everyone I know raves about them, and yet whenever I play, I seem to be treated to this mind-melting simon-says button mashing while, if I'm lucky, a selection from my MP3 collection plays in the background, or, if I'm unlucky, a selection from the playlist of some annoying contemporary with horrible taste in music plays.

What am I missing?

I'm with you on this one, brother. Amen.

I do not at all see the appeal.

I know everyone has personal tastes and all but there are so many better games out there screaming for a port (Galatic Civ 2 anyone??) that I just can't see why Aspyr bothered. How about some concrete announcements about Spore? How about a Mac version of the world's most popular sport (soccer/football)? Different strokes for different folks I guess.

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#29 Janichsan

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 09:21 AM

View PostDaveyJJ, on December 18th 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

... that I just can't see why Aspyr bothered.
Maybe because they have an ongoing relationship with Activision, having done several console ports for them, and because the Guitar Hero franchise is pretty successful on consoles?

I can see the limitations of the game mechanics, but then again how limited are other music games like Dance Dance Revolution or Singstar? The major appeal of those games is simply fun: a simple gameplay – combined with music that you possibly like – that lets you pretend you are a great guitar player (or  singer or dancer). I mean, how many people here play air guitar to their favourite rock songs? ;)

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#30 Whaleman

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 09:25 AM

View PostDaveyJJ, on December 18th 2007, 03:11 PM, said:

I know everyone has personal tastes and all but there are so many better games out there screaming for a port

Well, if you look at the pure factual numbers, If Aspyr based its decision upon console reviews and sales of Guitar Hero II, it was among the top 5 rated games for the Xbox 360 (pushed down to 8th place now by newer releases) and was sold out almost everywhere at least here in Sweden and all other reports talk about it selling like hotcakes elsewhere as well. Plus it involved bringing a brand new genre to the Mac. Would you back on such a deal if offered? Not all games are up for reasonable deals if any after all.

As for the gameplay not being interesting... it's true that it's a simon says gameplay style... but it's all based on rythm. I play both bass and guitar myself, and I love the "down to basics" appriach by guitar hero that makes it possible for anybody to get a basic feel of what it is like to play guitar... even if they could never ever learn to handle the instrument from it.... and it rocks... man it rocks. Having it hooked up to a 106" projector canvas and a massive sound system doesn't hurt either... I bring the concert home.
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#31 Brad Oliver

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 12:58 PM

View PostAussieMacGamer, on December 18th 2007, 06:55 AM, said:

Owned
Hey Brad, i thought you werent allowed to be on forums anymore seeing as you got a shiny apple badge and whatnot nowadays :huh:

No, not at all. They have very few prohibitions on that (don't talk about unannounced products, don't be an ass, etc). It's just that most Apple employees are scared of gamers, possibly for good reason. ;)
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#32 Ichigo27

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:03 PM

View PostBrad Oliver, on December 18th 2007, 04:42 AM, said:

Or put another way, the PS2 and PS3 are not known for being easy to program for. The Xbox and Xbox 360 are very easy because they use a modified form of DirectX.

And that is why it's common to see developers with extended knowledge of directX in general to bitch and complain about the playstation 3's OpenGL ES. However their are developers who actually hire bright programmers who know about to use it a bit more fluidly then lets just say EA porting houses or activisions.
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#33 Brad Oliver

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:35 PM

View PostIchigo27, on December 18th 2007, 01:03 PM, said:

And that is why it's common to see developers with extended knowledge of directX in general to bitch and complain about the playstation 3's OpenGL ES. However their are developers who actually hire bright programmers who know about to use it a bit more fluidly then lets just say EA porting houses or activisions.

Is that really true though? OpenGL ES on the PS3 is a lot like DX - the API it exposes is the "new" GL api that matches DX fairly closely. It even supports Cg/HLSL shaders instead of OpenGL's GLSL. Most of the complaints I've seen about the PS3 development center around the need for lots of low-level optimizing to squeak out acceptable performance rather than the API.

It's worth mentioning, to avoid confusion with the original complaint, that Sony does not support OpenGL ES on the PS2.
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#34 Auron

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:42 PM

View PostBrad Oliver, on December 18th 2007, 05:42 AM, said:

That sounds like a challenge, so I'll venture a guess! :)

I'd wager the Xbox 360 version was based on a fairly vanilla DirectX codebase. If so, you can port that to the Mac a lot quicker than a PS2 version written in some PS2-specific 3D API that is threaded up the wazoo and relies on all kinds of custom DSPs interacting at a hardware register level, particularly if time-to-market is a serious consideration. Or put another way, the PS2 and PS3 are not known for being easy to program for. The Xbox and Xbox 360 are very easy because they use a modified form of DirectX.

Well that makes decision make a little more sense then. How hard would it have been to port, say the Wii version? or make the graphics much more scalable in a 360 port? While getting it out in time for Christmas I'm sure was important, it seems as if that was at the cost of a large number of potential buyers. I don't have any data on what the typical computer user has in terms of specs, but I'm guess its not good enough to run this game, and for a game with such a universal appeal, that's not a good thing.

#35 Ichigo27

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:51 PM

View PostBrad Oliver, on December 18th 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

I've seen about the PS3 development center around the need for lots of low-level optimizing to squeak out acceptable performance rather than the API.

I presume that would be the case for the development in general for the cell, however I am somewhat curious to what insomiac, naughty dog, and guerrilla will brew up with the hardware in the coming year.



View PostBrad Oliver, on December 18th 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

It's worth mentioning, to avoid confusion with the original complaint, that Sony does not support OpenGL ES on the PS2.

Main focus was the playstation 3 not the playstation 2 given I don't recall the playstation 2 had support of Open GL ES.
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#36 teflon

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:36 PM

View PostAuron, on December 18th 2007, 07:42 PM, said:

Well that makes decision make a little more sense then. How hard would it have been to port, say the Wii version?

The Wii version is an upscaled port of the PS2 one I believe, with that bit more polish added to the effects.
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#37 Auron

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 04:07 PM

View Postteflon, on December 18th 2007, 03:36 PM, said:

The Wii version is an upscaled port of the PS2 one I believe, with that bit more polish added to the effects.

I don't believe that's the case. It has online play, and downloadable content unlike the PS2 version. It seems more likely the PS3/360/Wii are all differing version of the same engine, and the PS2 version is running the same engine as the previous games just with the new content. Just guessing though.

#38 teflon

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:23 PM

my bad, i meant in terms of graphics and graphics alone. Theres plenty of differences between the two, specially to do with the controller (likely another reason for going with the X360 version not the Wii one). Id be very surprised if I was wrong about the graphics, as its pretty much par for the course in the industry at the moment, with there being 2 engines, one for X360 and PS3 and the other for PS2 and Wii (if theres a PS2 version to be done).

They might be subsets of the other, but would have enough differences to make it pretty difficult to go from the PS2 version, not to mention doing a port of a ported engine (Wii) wouldnt make sense to me.
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#39 Auron

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 04:22 PM

View Postteflon, on December 18th 2007, 07:23 PM, said:

my bad, i meant in terms of graphics and graphics alone. Theres plenty of differences between the two, specially to do with the controller (likely another reason for going with the X360 version not the Wii one). Id be very surprised if I was wrong about the graphics, as its pretty much par for the course in the industry at the moment, with there being 2 engines, one for X360 and PS3 and the other for PS2 and Wii (if theres a PS2 version to be done).

They might be subsets of the other, but would have enough differences to make it pretty difficult to go from the PS2 version, not to mention doing a port of a ported engine (Wii) wouldnt make sense to me.

I still don't think the Wii version is a port of the PS2 version, but given our lack of knowledge in the situation this conversation is likely moot. My overall point though, is whatever extra steps are required to get a lower requirement version of this game out in my estimation would have made it much more successful.

#40 bobbob

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 07:43 PM

The first PC patch is out.