67 replies to this topic

[Blackshawk]

Sony has been in the pits this round of the console wars, and despite being the undisputed heavyweight champion last time around, they've been beaten senseless so far by Microsoft and Nintendo. An incredibly high price, lame hardware (not as bad as M$'s, though), bad publicity, mediocre games, Kutaragi, poor third-party support, and many other factors have played into Sony's amazingly slow start with the legendary Playstation 3.

So what is Sony's response? Lower the price. That's right, boys and girls, you can now pick up a coveted Playstation 3 for just $399.99 this holiday season. Just think, for the price of what an Xbox 360 used to cost you can get your very own PS3 complete with system, controller, cables, no backward compatability, de..... what?! No backward compatability??? Sony's definitely pulling out the big guns now – who wouldn't want their entire Playstation 1-2 library rendered immediately obsolete? I know I sure would!

While Microsoft and Nintendo flawlessly execute backward compatibility (Nintendo across four generations of hardware), Sony rips the functionality out of what could have been a competitively priced product. Maybe they're hoping nobody will notice until the unwary buyer tries to stick Madden 06 (or whatever) into his brand spanking new Playstation 3 and sparks start coming out. Excellent merit!

So while Sony seems destined for the bargain bin, the console war is heating up for this holiday season. The Wii and Xbox 360 are virtually neck-and-neck in terms of console sales (seriously, they're thatclose), and both companies are pledging huge numbers of consoles to be readily available. Microsoft has begun to diversify the 360 SKU, but Nintendo still isn't capable meeting demand – nearly 12 months into the launch of the Wii and the most ready answer a Gamestop employee has for you is – "all sold out, sorry".

[Ichigo27]

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 12:46 AM, said:

An incredibly high price

Not as steep as the Neo Geo.

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 12:46 AM, said:

lame hardware

To developers who are ignorant of the cell and SDK for the playstation 3 in general....

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 12:46 AM, said:

mediocre games

How is Warhawk, Heavenly Sword, Resistance, Everyday shooter, Tekken 5 DR, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma even count as mediocre games?

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 12:46 AM, said:

poor third-party support

By developers who care more about money then to put real effert into a title.

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 12:46 AM, said:

Sony's definitely pulling out the big guns now – who wouldn't want their entire Playstation 1-2 library rendered immediately obsolete?

Consumers who bought their playstation 3s to play playstation 3 titles. Not consumers who don't own the previous playstations.

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 12:46 AM, said:

While Microsoft and Nintendo flawlessly execute backward compatibility

The xbox 360 can play all last generation xbox titles? The Wii, can it actually play every single title from the NES, SNES, and N64? Where did this come out of the blue all of the sudden?

[Tesseract]

Ichigo27, on October 17th 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

The xbox 360 can play all last generation xbox titles? The Wii, can it actually play every single title from the NES, SNES, and N64? Where did this come out of the blue all of the sudden?

Yeah, you're right, only Nintendo has flawless backwards compatibility with the previous generation. I agree that Virtual Console isn't backwards compatibility, and the SNES and N64 selection on it could stand to be a lot bigger.

[No One]

I don't know, these new consoles just aren't calling to me. None of them have the critical mass of games I really want versus the overall cost of the consoles themselves. It looks like I'm going to be sticking with my PS2 for at least a little while longer. At least it has a lot of games I still want to play.

Also, seeing as it's an important internet meme... GIANT ENEMY CRAB!

[Janichsan]

Blackshawk, on October 17th 2007, 07:46 AM, said:

...their entire Playstation 1-2 library rendered immediately obsolete?

Not quite: the PS1 compatibility will remain, since it's completely software based. The PS2 compatibility will be removed.

It's even worse in Europe: in the US, you can at least get the 80 GB version, which still has PS 2 backward compatibility. In Europe, you'll only get the crippled 40 GB version from now on.

[Huntn]

I never had an xbox (although friends do) so I appreciate the backwards compatibility of the 360 for those games I missed plus Halo3, Gears of War, and around the corner there is potential for Lost Odyssey and Mass Effect.

(This topic may end up in Off Topic.)

[the Battle Cat]

Huntn, on October 17th 2007, 04:30 AM, said:

(This topic may end up in Off Topic.)

Right you are Ken! </VicRomano>  Hold onto your beloved console of choice!

[QuantaCat]

thank god its in off topic, now I can talk about stuff that has nothing to do with the topic!


Huntn: I like your quote. Firefly was the bestest. I downloaded "Chuck", a new "nerd turned superspy" series, because the Jayne-actor plays in it. or is it just jane? I forget. (EDIT: forgot the name: adam baldwin)

[teflon]

Ichigo27, on October 17th 2007, 07:06 AM, said:

How is Warhawk, Heavenly Sword, Resistance, Everyday shooter, Tekken 5 DR, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma even count as mediocre games?

a couple of those are...

[Mister Mumbles]

I like my Wii, but I must admit if it wasn't for the Virtual Console - whose steadily growing selection provides me with a slew of games I've never had the privilege of playing before - I wouldn't have had as much fun so far. There have been only a few good Wii titles on hand, but there'll be good games a-plenty this holiday season. =)

The PS3 doesn't tempt me at all. Frankly, I'm disinterested in a machine with Blu-Ray drive, which consequently drives up the price quite a bit, especially since the format wars are far from having been decided - and I do just fine watching regular DVDs. In addition, there are very few games on the platform I'm interested in.

I would be tempted by the 360, but the hardware problems the console has been facing makes me balk every time. Despite it having the biggest library of the three, it doesn't have more than a handful of games I'd be interested in - there's only so many action games I can take.

That's another reason why I like the Wii over the other two. The games that are and will be available have a greater variety in genre, and they generally just appeal to me more. Sure, some of them may be more cutesy, but I don't mind that fact, as long as they're good. Yes, the Wii is, without a doubt, the worst platform as far as online play is concerned; then again, I prefer playing solo most of the time, anyways. It's funny how the DS is a much more capable online gaming platform, in comparison.

[Ichigo27]

teflon, on October 17th 2007, 11:03 AM, said:

a couple of those are...

And which of the couple are they?

[Blackshawk]

Ichigo27, on October 17th 2007, 01:06 AM, said:

Not as steep as the Neo Geo.
To developers who are ignorant of the cell and SDK for the playstation 3 in general....
By developers who care more about money then to put real effert into a title.

Nice defense. No, really.

Did I stick this in Mac gaming? Arrrg! Didn't mean to do so.

[Magnum]

No One, on October 17th 2007, 02:40 AM, said:

Also, seeing as it's an important internet meme... GIANT ENEMY CRAB!

Quickly! HIT THE WEAK SPOT FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

[Frost]

Okay, I have to completely disagree on all points but one.

1) Mediocre games? Not from where I'm sitting, but I guess whatever floats your boat. I could say the same about the Wii... sure, Nintendo's old games are fun, but where are the fun Wii games? It has all of like.. well, one? Maybe two above-mediocre titles? And beyond that, the really good ones are also available on the 360 and PS3, and look and play a hell of a better on those than on the Wii.

I think this category is entirely subjective. You may not see the appeal of the PS3 line-up, but I don't see the appeal of the Wii line-up, and every 360 game that I really really wanted now has a port except Gears of War. And the upcoming games I really want are either on both platforms or PS3 exclusives, with the exception of Ace Combat 6.

Let's also not forget it's only 11 months out... what did the 360 have its first year worth playing? Gee, not much. 360 games weren't even competing with original Xbox games on Live until Gears of War showed up a full year after launch. Sony has handed Microsoft its ass in this respect. They were doing a pathetic job up until July, at which point they've been swinging back in force with games people are actually buying.

2) Lame hardware? How's that? If you mean from the developer's POV, EA's software looks and plays like popsnizzle, but that's EA's fault. The games I've seen from developers who have a clue how to program for it look fantastic.

Take Ubisoft games for instance. Their port of Splinter Cell was an atrocity on the level with the sacking of Constantinople. Their port of Rainbow Six was roughly on par with the 360, but the colors were a bit washed out and while it fixed some bugs, it also introduced some nasty new ones. The port of GRAW 2, however, runs great, looks as good or better than the 360, and actually plays better online.

Or take the maker of Colin McRae's DiRT, which was made for both systems, but looks and plays better on the PS3 simply by virtue of the fact that, according to the developers themselves, they just couldn't squeeze the same power out of the 360. Lame hardware? Hardly. Some major developers who are poor programmers? Absolutely.

2.5) And as far as the hardware itself, every third or fourth buyer's 360 bricking itself doesn't even begin to compare to that happening to one out of every 200 to 400 with the PS3 and Wii.

3) Microsoft flawlessly executing backward compatibility? Okay, now you're just outright joking. I agree that Sony taking out the hardware emulation is just plain stupid as hell (I sure wouldn't buy one with software emu), but let's be realistic; software emulation's crap support is right on par with the 360's equally garbage backward compatibility. It'll support the really popular, in-demand games from the last gen, but go beyond that and you're asking for the floor to fall out from under you. The story is not "PS3's backward compatibility was as good as Wii and 360, but has now taken a nosedive." It is "PS3 was as good as Wii, but has now nosedived to the 360's level."

4) Far as sales go, you're acting as though North America is the only market. It damn sure is the biggest one, but it's not the only one. Let's break this down by regional preference (determined by current sale figures)

North America - Wii, then 360, then PS3
Europe - Wii and PS3 neck and neck, with 360 a distant third
Japan - Wii, then PS3, then 360 an extremely distant third
Australia - PS3, then Wii, then 360

The 360 is behind the PS3 in all markets but America, and thanks to that much-maligned Blu-ray drive, BD has effectively finished unseating HD DVD in its last stronghold, Europe, and is pulling ahead at an increasing rate. Also, from watching Amazon, I can see that, less than a month after Halo 3's launch, all flavors of 360 except the Elite have once again fallen far behind the more expensive PS3 (and the Elite is only one slot up from the PS3), and even the older PS2. Although sales of black Xbox 360 controllers do definitely outdo the PS3 and Sixaxis... guess the white color scheme wasn't so popular afterall. And then, finally, let's remember several market research firms' sales numbers fail to properly account for online sales, where the PS3 has so far done better than its more lackluster showing in the brick and mortar sales field.

I'm not seeing how Sony has "failed" or "is failing" in any respect other than its failure to unseat Microsoft in its own back yard (though they're obviously pursuing that aggressively with pricing as well as games, and are closing the gap).

As an investor, I'm pretty pleased with them, honestly. While the original Xbox and GameCube are all but dead, Sony's last gen console is still selling exceptionally well considering it's seven years old. Their current gen console, while expensive and late to the game, has unseated its chief competitor except in North America. And their Blu-ray format, which was trailing dismally behind HD DVD, has proceeded to leap ahead and swipe the worldwide HD rug from under HD DVD's feet, which is obviously largely due to the PS3, considering Blu-ray player sales aren't really following the sales spike in Blu-ray discs. In otherwords, PS3 is doing for Blu-ray what the PS2 helped to do for DVD. Sony practically bet the company on the PS3, and the more time goes by, the more it looks like they bet right.

[QuantaCat]

But those figures just mean that the X360 has been around longer, and no need for new consoles exists. The PS3 isnt in a race with it anyhow, since most people probably own two consoles. So its only fighting the Wii, so to say. And is North America really the biggest market? what about japan?

[Huntn]

QuantaCat, on October 17th 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

thank god its in off topic, now I can talk about stuff that has nothing to do with the topic!
Huntn: I like your quote. Firefly was the bestest. I downloaded "Chuck", a new "nerd turned superspy" series, because the Jayne-actor plays in it. or is it just jane? I forget. (EDIT: forgot the name: adam baldwin)

I never watched Serenity when it was a TV show. In fact I heard about it here, watched the "only" Season and the Movie and grew quite fond of it. What do you think of Chuck?

[Huntn]

Frost, on October 17th 2007, 03:41 PM, said:

3) Microsoft flawlessly executing backward compatibility? Okay, now you're just outright joking. I agree that Sony taking out the hardware emulation is just plain stupid as hell (I sure wouldn't buy one with software emu), but let's be realistic; software emulation's crap support is right on par with the 360's equally garbage backward compatibility.

I've had good luck with 360 backwards compatibility so far but it's very limited- Halo, Halo2 and Brute Force is on the way. Here is a list of xbox compatible titles on the 360. Maybe you'd care to clarify why the 360 has garbage backward compatibility?

[Frost]

QuantaCat, on October 17th 2007, 06:17 PM, said:

But those figures just mean that the X360 has been around longer, and no need for new consoles exists. The PS3 isnt in a race with it anyhow, since most people probably own two consoles. So its only fighting the Wii, so to say. And is North America really the biggest market? what about japan?

Er, the 360's installed base is only 11 to 12 million worldwide. I would hope they don't intend for it to stop or significantly slow down there if they want to stay in the game. Comparing with previous generations, the PS1's installed base hit 102 million, the original Xbox is at 24 million, GameCube is 21 million, PS2's is at 120 million and still growing rapidly (which is why Blackshawk and I can agree on Sony being beyond crazy not to offer better support for PS2 games; Microsoft throwing a bone to 24 million Xbox customers doesn't really affect their bottom line as long as they cover the big sellers. Sony catering to 120+ million customers of widely varying tastes, however, is a MUCH larger issue).

And the North American market is much larger than Japan. Just look at population... 336 million people in the US and Canada compared to 127 million in Japan. Not to mention North Americans make more per person than Japanese, AND have more disposable income. You can extrapolate from there what that means for the market for entertainment products. Europe is also a bigger market than Japan, for the same reasons. Europeans don't make as much total or have as much disposable income as North Americans or Japanese, but having 497 million people evens it out.

Huntn, on October 17th 2007, 07:36 PM, said:

I've had good luck with 360 backwards compatibility so far but it's very limited- Halo, Halo2 and Brute Force is on the way. Here is a list of xbox compatible titles on the 360. Maybe you'd care to clarify why the 360 has garbage backward compatibility?

I think it should be pretty obvious what I'm talking about by comparing that list to the list of all games on the Xbox (and I'll note you clipped off the part of my quote that qualified what I was saying). I'm supposed to accept that that short (relatively) list is called "flawless execution of backward compatibility" and is in any way remotely comparable, let alone superior, to Wii's compatibility or EE-equipped PS3s' compatibility? Gimme a break...

The software emulation PS3s' backwards compatibility sucks compared to the EE-equipped launch models, but it's at least as good as the 360's compatibility with original Xbox titles, so I don't see what the issue is here. Being unable to accept software PS3s' backward compatibility capability, and yet holding up the 360's is just  

Neither system is going to be winning any awards any time soon for legacy support. If all you want to play from your Xbox is the Halos and other popular, high sales games, it'll likely be fine for you. Same for the software PS3. If you want compatibility with a big library, you're going to have problems on both systems though unless you just happened to only pick out compatible games. At least the PS3 gives you an out; can pick up a 60 GB off Amazon still, or grab a 60 GB or 20 GB off eBay. You're going to need an original Xbox for full Xbox compatibility.

[AussieMacGamer]

Ichigo27, on October 17th 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

How is Warhawk, Heavenly Sword, Resistance, Everyday shooter, Tekken 5 DR, and Ninja Gaiden Sigma even count as mediocre games?

Warhawk is a battlefield (standard tactical team based) shooter clone
Heavenly sword, from what i played failed to impress. overall meh
Resistance, is not a good game. CoD2 with aliens. only impresses on Co-Op
Everyday shooter, is addictively fun, but still comes under the medeiocrity ladder
Tekken 5: Dark Ressurection, is table scraps
Ninja Gaiden Sigma, is table Scraps

[Tesseract]

So I work with a guy who has a PS3, and he tells me that the Australian version never contained the EE chip, yet it plays PS2 games just fine. Now I'm confused.