Jump to content


Why PowerPC is done


  • Please log in to reply
191 replies to this topic

#21 blzbub14

blzbub14

    Fan

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 28 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 19 July 2007 - 03:16 AM

All new games will only run "well" on new hardware. Every time I buy a new Mac I am in the min specs sweet spot for about 6 months. After that that number of new releases I dare buy get less and less.

I take solace in the fact that there is a back catalogue of excellent titles available to me. As long as older games, that I didn't have the time/money/hardware (delete as applicable) to buy in the first instance are there I'm a happy bunny.

Ultimately it depends on how desperate you are to play the latest and greatest titles (ironically the "latest" titles on a Mac are already 6-12 months old by the time we get them).
iMac Intel 1.8GHZ 17" 1GB Ram
This month I am mostly playing:
WOW & X-Plane

#22 teflon

teflon

    Bastard of the Popeye Analogy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9589 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 19 July 2007 - 06:29 AM

View Postblzbub14, on July 19th 2007, 10:16 AM, said:

Ultimately it depends on how desperate you are to play the latest and greatest titles (ironically the "latest" titles on a Mac are already 6-12 months old by the time we get them).

i know exactly how you feel with regards to that back catalogue, its pretty neat. i could not buy another game for 6 months and just complete all the things that ive not managed yet (though id have to go back to OS9 for some things...).

youll be happy soon, though, cos of the EA deal and people seemingly jumping on the bandwagon already, well be getting a good few shooters on the mac this autumn/winter, hopefully within a short space of time from the PC release.
Polytetrafluoroethylene to my friends.

Macbook Pro - C2D 2.4Ghz / 4GB RAM / Samsung 830 256GB SSD / Geforce 8600M GT 256Mb / 15.4"
Cube - G4 1.7Ghz 7448 / 1.5GB RAM / Samsung Spinpoint 250GB / Geforce 6200 256Mb
Self-built PC - C2Q Q8300 2.5Ghz / 4GB RAM / Samsung 830 256GB SSD / Radeon 7850 OC 1GB / W7 x64
and a beautiful HP LP2475w 24" H-IPS monitor

#23 Atticus

Atticus

    Legendary

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 943 posts
  • Location:Sternum's Ribcage

Posted 19 July 2007 - 06:59 AM

Let me put it this way, kids:

If you're a desktop gamer (ie, non-console), you're already in the minority.

If you're a Mac user, you're in a smaller minority.

If you're a Mac gamer, you're in an even smaller minority.

If you're a Mac gamer who games on a PPC machine that isn't a console, you're a boil on the pimple of the arse of gaming.

;-)

Atticus
"I'm standing in the middle of life with my pants behind me."

#24 Fendersrule

Fendersrule

    Fanatic

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 130 posts
  • Location:Central Washington

Posted 19 July 2007 - 07:26 AM

View PostAtticus, on July 19th 2007, 07:59 AM, said:

Let me put it this way, kids:

If you're a desktop gamer (ie, non-console), you're already in the minority.

If you're a Mac user, you're in a smaller minority.

If you're a Mac gamer, you're in an even smaller minority.

If you're a Mac gamer who games on a PPC machine that isn't a console, you're a boil on the pimple of the arse of gaming.

;-)

Atticus

Sadly, I think you are correct...haha.

The thing is, is why not have both for gaming? Then your set....then again, that's incorrect.

If you have an Intel Mac..just run windows and play every game out there.

I came from the dark realm (PC) and played every single game for the PC. Hosted, went to city Lan parties and had some of the most fun ever. I moved to the Mac to play new games I havn't played before. Well, I'm up to my eyeballs in games, and I'm having a blast.

Try to see the mac as a "different" console. Some games are more readily available than on the PC with the Mac.

I think PPC games are still going to be readily available due to the large market size still. I wouldn't sweat yet.
2.2GHz MBP 7200 RPM
2.8GHz MP 1.5TB RAID & 8800 GT
1.5GHz G4 Mini
23" Cinema Display

#25 ravenpen

ravenpen

    Fanatic

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts

Posted 19 July 2007 - 07:32 AM

Considering that Ryan Gordon confirmed that both Gears of War and UT 3 are not using Cider or any other "conversion technology", I think it's safe to assume that two more A-list titles will be making their way to PPC Macs in the near future.
Raven's Tales - A Repository of Thoughts, Yarns and Stories

#26 teflon

teflon

    Bastard of the Popeye Analogy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9589 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 19 July 2007 - 08:12 AM

i think its very unsafe to assume that for the simple reason that the min spec for Bioshock on PC is 2.4Ghz single core or a C2D recommended. So the only recommended G5s out there are dual core towers, but for safety lets cut out anything with less than 2Ghz ok?
then the minimum GPU is a 6600 or X1300. So thats effectively a no to 9800s, and so only those with PCIe PMG5s or those that upgraded the GPU to a 6800, X800, or X1900...

then, of course, you have to add in the porting speed overhead and youve lost 5% performance minimum...

and anyway, since when did not using cider mean that the game was a Universal Binary?? Star Wars Empire at War was intel only, and that could have run on G5 iMacs no problem..

so dont get your hopes up any, and maybe, just maybe youll be pleasantly surprised by a smidgeon of PPC support.
Polytetrafluoroethylene to my friends.

Macbook Pro - C2D 2.4Ghz / 4GB RAM / Samsung 830 256GB SSD / Geforce 8600M GT 256Mb / 15.4"
Cube - G4 1.7Ghz 7448 / 1.5GB RAM / Samsung Spinpoint 250GB / Geforce 6200 256Mb
Self-built PC - C2Q Q8300 2.5Ghz / 4GB RAM / Samsung 830 256GB SSD / Radeon 7850 OC 1GB / W7 x64
and a beautiful HP LP2475w 24" H-IPS monitor

#27 Quicksilver

Quicksilver

    Verbal Windbag

  • IMG Writers
  • 4227 posts
  • Location:Chicago Illinois
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 19 July 2007 - 08:20 AM

I agree--I seriously doubt that we'll see it on PPC Macs.  There are only a smattering of G5s equipped with a shader model 3.0 card (usually the Geforce 6-series--very few people bought the G5-specific X1900), and the Geforce 6-series cards are inadequate to run Bioshock at anything remotely approaching medium settings.  Who'd want to do a PowerPC port with that in mind?
Former Senior Hardware Editor
InsideMacGames.com

#28 ravenpen

ravenpen

    Fanatic

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts

Posted 19 July 2007 - 08:42 AM

I guess I see your points about the minimum specs, but my dual 2.7 G5 meets them as do many other PPC towers out there.

Honestly the Cider comment by Gordon seemed to me to be a confirmation of PPC compatibility because itís really the only practical reason to ask the question in the first place.  Would anyone really care about Cider one way or the other if the games were Intel-Mac exclusive anyway?

I suppose the upcoming titles could be Intel only, but Iím not sure why Gordon wouldnít have pointed that out at the time as it seems fairly obvious that the PPC status of the games was the sole reason the question was being posed.
Raven's Tales - A Repository of Thoughts, Yarns and Stories

#29 Hansi

Hansi

    Master Blaster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1785 posts
  • Steam ID:hansroberth
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 19 July 2007 - 08:58 AM

View Postravenpen, on July 19th 2007, 02:42 PM, said:

I guess I see your points about the minimum specs, but my dual 2.7 G5 meets them as do many other PPC towers out there.

Honestly the Cider comment by Gordon seemed to me to be a confirmation of PPC compatibility because itís really the only practical reason to ask the question in the first place.  Would anyone really care about Cider one way or the other if the games were Intel-Mac exclusive anyway?

I suppose the upcoming titles could be Intel only, but Iím not sure why Gordon wouldnít have pointed that out at the time as it seems fairly obvious that the PPC status of the games was the sole reason the question was being posed.

I think you're reading way too much into this, I think it make almsot no sense to make the game support PPC, it will just delay the release greatly and cost a bunch of work and have little return... I think it will be Intel only games simply because the only machines capable to handling it that are PPC are the last generation of the G5 towers with 6800, x800, x1900 cards. I mean UT3 is not a last generation game that's being ported late for the Mac. This is a next generation game that's engine will be used for years to come. I think even the machines with the x1600 cards will stuggle with it.

#30 ravenpen

ravenpen

    Fanatic

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts

Posted 19 July 2007 - 09:18 AM

From the responses I'm getting it looks as though the titles are indeed just too high-end to run well on most PPC machines.

I guess I'm just surprised that Gordon didn't say something like: "the games are not using Cider or any other middleware, but will be Intel exclusive ports" when he was addressing the issue.

Perhaps it's just irrational hope trying to keep my G5 dreams alive that leads me to glom on to such statements.  For better or worse, my stalwart tower currently meets my professional and personal needs just fine and it will be a long time before I can justify replacing it with something newer.

Maybe the liquid cooling unit in my system will die during my Apple Care warranty and I'll be given a nice shiny Mac Pro to replace it.

Ack, I can't believe I just wished for that.  Don't worry little G5; I still love you!  :wub:
Raven's Tales - A Repository of Thoughts, Yarns and Stories

#31 Riko

Riko

    Legendary

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 738 posts
  • Location:Wang-Bang-Rotterdam

Posted 19 July 2007 - 09:23 AM

View PostHansi, on July 19th 2007, 04:58 PM, said:

I think you're reading way too much into this, I think it make almsot no sense to make the game support PPC, it will just delay the release greatly and cost a bunch of work and have little return... I think it will be Intel only games simply because the only machines capable to handling it that are PPC are the last generation of the G5 towers with 6800, x800, x1900 cards. I mean UT3 is not a last generation game that's being ported late for the Mac. This is a next generation game that's engine will be used for years to come. I think even the machines with the x1600 cards will stuggle with it.

Jup, there you have it, you summ up the first post of this thread in a few lines.




"PPC is dead Jim, I'm, a doctor, not an escalator."

#32 Quicksilver

Quicksilver

    Verbal Windbag

  • IMG Writers
  • 4227 posts
  • Location:Chicago Illinois
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 19 July 2007 - 09:24 AM

By the way, the X800XT is a shader model 2.0 card, so it can't do Bioshock (and everything else that requires SM 3.0).
Former Senior Hardware Editor
InsideMacGames.com

#33 Atticus

Atticus

    Legendary

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 943 posts
  • Location:Sternum's Ribcage

Posted 19 July 2007 - 10:08 AM

Ravenpen, do I what I did: sell your G5 via Craig's List, throw in a bit of your own $$$, and buy a Mactel. A local graphics design start-up was more than happy to take my dual 2.0 G5 off my hands, and I got a great price. Not every person out there needs bleeding edge, ya' know?

Atticus
"I'm standing in the middle of life with my pants behind me."

#34 ehuelga

ehuelga

    Heroic

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 309 posts
  • Steam Name:El Spud
  • Location:Mill Valley, CA

Posted 19 July 2007 - 10:13 AM

View Postravenpen, on July 19th 2007, 09:32 AM, said:

Considering that Ryan Gordon confirmed that both Gears of War and UT 3 are not using Cider or any other "conversion technology", I think it's safe to assume that two more A-list titles will be making their way to PPC Macs in the near future.
"not using Cider" != "making their way to PPC"

As for Ryan Gordon's comment: he's a terse guy acknowledging that his NDA has just been nullified by the VP's loose lips. He's busy writing and debugging code for at least 2 games on 2 OSs, and isn't interested in having a chat with Mac-gamers about minutiae (like, "Will my 2 year old machine run next year's game?") Cider is the cheap and easy way to port; all it takes is a couple of competent people to make sure everything comes out the other end all right. His confirmation points out the obvious: Epic is paying him to get his hands dirty doing what he does best, porting the game and not just running it through the Cider press to squeeze out a "Mac version."
The commute from Mill Valley to Cupertino is a real bitch.

#35 teflon

teflon

    Bastard of the Popeye Analogy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9589 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 19 July 2007 - 11:55 AM

Its all about how you perceive Cider. a good thing that can bring more games to the mac, or something that is still quite unproven in terms of its performance.

Ryan Gordon is a very well known quantity with the UT series. They can go back to him and say "Ryan, the code isnt as quick as we were hoping for, is there anything that can happen to speed it up?" and he can fire back at a few optimisations hed like to see from both Epic and Apple and get things done like that.

Not to mention that, as with idtech5, it will be far more appealing to a developer looking at your engine to hear "yup, weve got the codebase running on X360, PS3, PC, Mac and Linux, so if you want it out on absolutely everything, then you can" as opposed to "yeah, weve got it running spot on with X360, PS3 and Windows, but if you want it on mac at a later date, then just give transgaming a bell and theyll be able to sort you out with a license."

if the code is done, the code is done and all you really need to do is test it once again with regards to all the things that youve added yourself (such as Havok is in Bioshock).

oh, and dont forget, Ryan Gordon looks like a certain religious figure... he can make anything happen...
Polytetrafluoroethylene to my friends.

Macbook Pro - C2D 2.4Ghz / 4GB RAM / Samsung 830 256GB SSD / Geforce 8600M GT 256Mb / 15.4"
Cube - G4 1.7Ghz 7448 / 1.5GB RAM / Samsung Spinpoint 250GB / Geforce 6200 256Mb
Self-built PC - C2Q Q8300 2.5Ghz / 4GB RAM / Samsung 830 256GB SSD / Radeon 7850 OC 1GB / W7 x64
and a beautiful HP LP2475w 24" H-IPS monitor

#36 Maestro

Maestro

    Legendary

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 662 posts
  • Steam Name:kgmoome
  • Location:Boston

Posted 19 July 2007 - 12:14 PM

View PostEric5h5, on July 18th 2007, 02:26 PM, said:

did some research, and turned up a fair amount of similar complaints on various forums.  It didn't leave me with the most positive of impressions.

People who have complaints will post them more often than people who have good things to say.

I don't think it's smart to form an impression that way.

View Postyo-mike, on July 19th 2007, 03:17 AM, said:

2. Secondly running games in Classic requires some tinkering with Disk images and if your up to the tinkering, you wont be dissatisfied.

Running games in classic mode?  :bleedingeyes:
Tortillas are sleeping bags for ground beef.

#37 Huntn

Huntn

    Verbal Windbag

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4074 posts
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 19 July 2007 - 12:51 PM

View PostQuicksilver, on July 19th 2007, 09:20 AM, said:

I agree--I seriously doubt that we'll see it on PPC Macs.  There are only a smattering of G5s equipped with a shader model 3.0 card (usually the Geforce 6-series--very few people bought the G5-specific X1900), and the Geforce 6-series cards are inadequate to run Bioshock at anything remotely approaching medium settings.  Who'd want to do a PowerPC port with that in mind?

My G5 is obsolete for gaming. That's kind of sad. :crying: Even with a more powerful card I'd wonder if the G5 could hack Bioshock...

#38 Eric5h5

Eric5h5

    Minion Tormentor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7160 posts

Posted 19 July 2007 - 01:00 PM

View PostMaestro, on July 19th 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

People who have complaints will post them more often than people who have good things to say.

No kidding.  I did take that into account, you know.   :nods:

--Eric

#39 ehuelga

ehuelga

    Heroic

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 309 posts
  • Steam Name:El Spud
  • Location:Mill Valley, CA

Posted 19 July 2007 - 07:20 PM

View Postteflon, on July 19th 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

Its all about how you perceive Cider.
I'm not rejecting Cider out of hand, or on principles and such. From the consumer perspective, if a game runs on a Mac in our OS, what difference does it make? It's a very positive move for expanding the options that publishers have ó and expanding the number of games we can choose from. But I wonder if patches will be more timely and support will be better if there are people involved that actually know what's going on in a game's guts rather than letting a "translation wrapper" do it all. Ryan Gordon has the UT franchise covered, Aspyr a library of id-engine games and a stable of geeks (minus Brad Oliver, but that's good news).
The commute from Mill Valley to Cupertino is a real bitch.

#40 Smoke_Tetsu

Smoke_Tetsu

    Uberspewer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3318 posts
  • Steam Name:Tetsu Jutsu
  • Steam ID:smoke_tetsu
  • Location:Cyberspace

Posted 19 July 2007 - 07:53 PM

To be honest with you all saying PowerPC is done is like saying Pentium 4 is done. Both of those are the previous generation that are being replaced by the same CPUs (Core). Of course it's being left behind by newer, faster and more capable CPUs. That goes without saying. However during this transition it does still have some life left to it. I'm kind of imagining a similar thread to this when Apple switched to PowerPC called "Why 68K is done". As long as people still have PowerPC systems. As long as universal binaries are produced and those computers can handle them it wont be entirely "done" yet. But it's just a matter of time. Universal binaries are to ease the transition. They are not to keep people on PowerPC forever.

It'd be foolish to do so. If I thought that way I'd be trying to get Doom 3 to run on my old 266MHz and Voodoo 2-3 system. Or hell.. I'd be on my old 133MHz and Voodoo 1 system and complaining that I can't run anything remotely recent. I tried telling the people at a certain forum that holding on to dear life onto 3Dfx cards forever and trying to get new games running on it up to and including forcing new features to be done through software won't be ideal forever but they would not listen to me. All because they hate the other 3D card companies and refuse to have anything to do with them. Even people here didn't like me suggesting that Voodoo 2 is too old to be supported anymore.

Epic has been saying that they are optimizing the engine to also run good on DX9 level hardware because the hardcore market isn't enough for them so things may be a bit better than some people think they might be. So before discounting certain systems\cards we should see how well those games run on them first. One thing is for certain though and that's on older systems you'll have to turn down the detail.

But if you want a high end experience you are going to want to ditch the PowerPC Mac when you can no doubts about that. PowerPC on the Mac is on its way out.... no doubt about that either. Some people need to save up and also might be waiting for DX10 level GPUs to come to more of the Macs though. Like me for example. Don't get me wrong though I'm not under any kind of illusion that UT3\GoW can run at anything resembling playable on my particular PowerPC Mac. Either way I will need a new computer and I will be going for Intel. I'm a little less doubtful that certain G5 Macs can run it than other people at least at lower settings.

Whether people like it or not though there is threshold for certain games\engines where it just doesn't make sense to run those games on certain configurations and you are better off upgrading. I'm wanting to upgrade even to get more out of my current games.

Hardware nowadays is getting cheaper though at least on the PC side. I recently saw a Quad Core PC for 1,100 dollars believe it or not. Granted it doesn't have a good video card but you can easily add one for not too much more (it has a PCI-E slot). I just wish Apple had the same kind of deals.. yeah yeah I know what kind of responses I might get to that about Apple's superiority in OS and things like that. I know why someone would go with a Mac rather than a PC all too well.

Point is people like me don't need to be told when to give up on certain systems. It's not like I'm sitting here waiting for some random stranger on the internet to tell me to upgrade. ;) :P
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

Generic Black Tower PC, Dual Core 64-bit 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 9600 GT 512MB - Windows 7