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Anti-Piracy SafeDisc Coming to the Mac


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#61 Aika

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 04:16 PM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 7th 2007, 09:36 PM, said:

I'm simply saying that we should blame the source of the problem.  The software pirates.  Remove pirates from the equation and there is no copy protection problem.  If you are inconvenienced by protection schemes then that is a problem you are having.  It's your problem - it's not Joe Blow's problem down the street who doesn't buy software - it's your problem.  You are not totally helpless, you can make a difference.  

I agree that you have a right to be annoyed, I'm annoyed and inconvenienced too.  I hate not being able to back up my CD's etc.  I don't agree that protection schemes are ineffective against pirates.  I'll grant they are not 100% effective, that much is obvious to most folks but nothing is going to be very effective until the mindset on it being cool to pirate is changed.  That's where you come into the picture as you interact with your peers.  Do the right thing, encourage others to do the same.  Lead by example.

Bottom line: No pirates = no software protection.
No, bottom line is that there will ALWAYS be pirates and they will ALWAYS crack any attempt at copy protection. You will never eliminate either no matter how draconian measures get or how much money is thrown at the problem.

Me telling off my peers for piracy is not going to do anything: people generally do not like being preached to. Hopefully they will come around and realise that it is not the thing to do by themselves... indeed people usually do. It's none of my business what others choose to do and frankly I have better fights to fight than software piracy (sexism, racism, homophobia, classism... take your pick, they're all far more important). I do my bit by buying games and I explicitly say that I do not pirate software when the subject comes up and that's where my responsibilities end.
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#62 Rev-O

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 04:31 PM

Not a big news flash here, of course, but the notion of piracy being wrong is only getting weakened. P2P has massively increased the opportunity to trade in copyrighted material and illegaly obtained software while removing any stigma of wrong doing. While the intent of P2P is good, the reality of P2P is that it faciliatates piracy on a huge scale. Everyone involved adopts their favorite dodge and spin from "It's only copyrighted material, it's not theft" to "what people do on our network is their business, it's not our responsibility to police them." It isn't entirely appropriate to include music swapping with software piracy, but I'm taking the slippery slope approach here. Not a big stretch to see the similarities in thought between the two.
Am I making a value judgement? Yah, I guess I am. Piracy is treated with a wink and a nod in most circles. Websites with 'anti-piracy' guidelines (*cough*MacNN*cough*) have threads looking for invites for torrent sites which largely exist to traffic in copyrighted material. Site moderators either turn a blind eye or participate. Sadly, people who are opposed to piracy are the minority. It's easy for people to publically be opposed to piracy but how many will turn down a copy of their buddy's disc of Prey when it comes out?
With this attitude of course copyprotection is going to become more stringent, obtrusive and common. I hope developers come up with a system that is effective without ruining my game experience.
Rant over, nothing to see here. Move along.

#63 Eric5h5

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 06:04 PM

While anyone who's read my posts knows I'm annoyed by DVD/CD protection, just to counter the "software companies are out to get the legit buyers" point of view a bit, here's the reasoning: the companies know very well that they have no hope of stopping pirates.  However, the majority of sales are in the first few weeks of a game, so if the disc protection is enough to counter a reasonable amount of casual piracy during that time period, it will have done its job.  My response is: that's OK as far as it goes, but since that's the logic, is there are reason not to have a built-in expiration for the disc check?  Say, after a few months.  As it is, we have to hope for the rare occasion when a company bothers to issue a patch the removes the check.  (Or else, of course, go looking for cracks.)  Since the legit buyers have to put up with the hassle of disc checks and pirates don't, why not work with us a little?

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#64 super_kev

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 09:09 PM

I'd have to agree with Frigidman (and others) with respect to patches.  I for one was thrilled when the update for UT2004 came out that didn't require the DVD to be in the drive.  The few games I have are patched so I don't have to pop in the CD/DVD.  

A no-cd patch is out within a day or two of the game hitting the shelves, and so is nothing but annoying to the normal end-user who buys the game.  I think MacSoft realized that and removed the DVD check with the UT2004 update, and I tip my hat to them for doing so.  :thumbsup:
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#65 the Battle Cat

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 04:30 PM

View PostAika, on January 7th 2007, 02:16 PM, said:

No, bottom line is that there will ALWAYS be pirates and they will ALWAYS crack any attempt at copy protection. You will never eliminate either no matter how draconian measures get or how much money is thrown at the problem.

Me telling off my peers for piracy is not going to do anything: people generally do not like being preached to. Hopefully they will come around and realise that it is not the thing to do by themselves... indeed people usually do. It's none of my business what others choose to do and frankly I have better fights to fight than software piracy (sexism, racism, homophobia, classism... take your pick, they're all far more important). I do my bit by buying games and I explicitly say that I do not pirate software when the subject comes up and that's where my responsibilities end.
I'm sorry if I made you angry.  That wasn't my intention.
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#66 yo-mike

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 12:25 AM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 8th 2007, 05:30 PM, said:

I'm sorry if I made you angry.  That wasn't my intention.
I'm not that angry anymore about the anti-piracy measures that software and game companies are making.
In fact I'm quite cooled down about it.

Any invasion of privacy and my files on my computer is a no no, that's for sure. Make no mistake. I'll not support it!
But, the anti-disk image "SafeDisc" as they call it, for legitimate non-pirating users; is a no brainer-It's a sad state of gaming on the Mac.
It seems that since Macintosh users have had it so good for so long, They wouldn't want to abuse the privilege. I don't support piracy either. Yet, apparently the game publishers see otherwise.
Now, the good 'ol days of Mac gaming are coming to an end.
I suspect a lot of the current Mac gamers will not support the new technology, and it will produce sluggish sales at the offset of the new Safedisc format. Especially those not accustomed to it.
Yet, the next generation of gamers who did not know otherwise will keep the sales going of the new breed of short life games. A pity indeed.

One more nail in the coffin of Mac gaming?
Likely, in the short run.

But, Mac gamers in the near, near future will not have any choice, if they want to play the top notch Mac games.
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#67 Rev-O

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 10:04 AM

Something to ponder: if SafeDisc was sufficiently effective so as to diminish a software company's percieved losses from piracy so that they felt comfortable purchasing a Havok license and bringing over some of the games forbidden us Mac users, wouldn't that be a good thing? I'd be all for it.

#68 Aika

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 10:17 AM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 8th 2007, 10:30 PM, said:

I'm sorry if I made you angry.  That wasn't my intention.
Not at all, I am just frustrated at the whole situation that's all. Sorry about that :)
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#69 teflon

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 11:36 AM

SafeDisc has already been broken for Imperial Glory, and any game with it will be broken just as easily, and most likely quicker.
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#70 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 03:07 PM

I kind of feel like if mac gamers boycott games that have things such as safedisc and they see sluggish sales as a result they might just say, "It's just because there isn't as much interest in the game as on the PC" and stop making Mac games. :P  :glare:
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#71 Aika

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 05:30 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on January 9th 2007, 09:07 PM, said:

I kind of feel like if mac gamers boycott games that have things such as safedisc and they see sluggish sales as a result they might just say, "It's just because there isn't as much interest in the game as on the PC" and stop making Mac games. :P  :glare:
Sad but oh so true.
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#72 bismilah

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 12:11 AM

View Postsuper_kev, on January 8th 2007, 04:09 AM, said:

I think MacSoft realized that and removed the DVD check with the UT2004 update, and I tip my hat to them for doing so.  :thumbsup:
No.
the dvd-check was removed to match with the PC version. It is not a decision from MacSoft, at the beginning.


As for the quote "there are protections, because pirates do exist", I total disagree with that.
Having helped for the development of several games, I could tell you it is out of question to publish anything that is not protected, regardless the number of illegal copies. Doing so would be stupid.

Anything, that is not freeware, must be protected. After that, it's up to the company to put a protection, that is a balance between the efficiency of the protection (the difficulty level to hack it) and the pain it can cause to end-users (not only the pain to insert a media each time but also the consequences on the price). Would you put a very strong dongle protection on a $20 game ?
Certainly not.

Eventually, there are many examples of games that just use a serial number and were never been hacked.

#73 the Battle Cat

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 12:07 PM

View Postbismilah, on January 9th 2007, 10:11 PM, said:

As for the quote "there are protections, because pirates do exist", I total disagree with that.
Having helped for the development of several games, I could tell you it is out of question to publish anything that is not protected due to the prevalence of pirating, regardless the number of illegal copies that pirates have made. Doing so would be stupid because of all the pirating.

Anything, that is not freeware, must be protected from pirates. After that, it's up to the company to put a protection against pirating, that is a balance between the efficiency of the protection in an attempt to prevent pirating (the difficulty level to hack it by pirates) and the pain it can cause to end-users because of our attempts to protect against pirating (not only the pain to insert a media each time as a weak prevention against pirating but also the consequences on the price incurred by pirating) . Would you put a very strong dongle protection against pirates on a $20 game?
Certainly not.  

Eventually, there are many examples of games that just use a serial number and were never been hacked because apparently the pirates must not have been interested enough.

There, I filled in the parts in red that you were forced to leave out in order to make your case.
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#74 teflon

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 12:19 PM

lol...

ahem.
anyway, I just got The Movies in the post today (its really really good by the way), and it too has SafeDisc on it...
a crack wont be out for a while... *sigh*...
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#75 bobbob

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:16 PM

View Postbismilah, on January 10th 2007, 12:11 AM, said:

it is out of question to publish anything that is not protected, regardless the number of illegal copies. Doing so would be stupid.

Yeah, you know, StarDock is just rolling in so much cash that they aren't keeping a good eye on their fragile game and it might get pirated. I'm sure StarForce would fix one of those problems for them. If there's anyone more scary than the pirates, it's the tools in the Russian mafia who run a protection racket.

Oops, I meant they sell snake oil. Make that copy protection. And anyone who doesn't buy, gets a torrent posted to the StarForce home page, cuz they're just looking out for your best interests.

#76 bismilah

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 01:42 AM

View Postbobbob, on January 11th 2007, 05:16 AM, said:

Yeah, you know, StarDock is just rolling in so much cash that they aren't keeping a good eye on their fragile game and it might get pirated. I'm sure StarForce would fix one of those problems for them. If there's anyone more scary than the pirates, it's the tools in the Russian mafia who run a protection racket.

Oops, I meant they sell snake oil. Make that copy protection. And anyone who doesn't buy, gets a torrent posted to the StarForce home page, cuz they're just looking out for your best interests.

Thank you for the link bobbob. Very interesting. It goes against my theory, but we learn everyday, right ?
Nevertheless, I do think this is an exception and not representative.

As for Starforce, total agree it is a russian mafiosi team. They should have been on trial a zillion times with all torrent links they posted on their own website. Actually, they increase piracy. Pathetic. If one day it comes to Mac, I will not buy anything with that protection. I'll boycott them instead. But the cool stuff is that their very bad attitude has already been condemned, since their biggest customer (Ubisoft) ceased to use it.

Happily, Safedisc does not install any system stuff and does not use low-level drivers either. There is absolutely no danger for legit users.