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Anti-Piracy SafeDisc Coming to the Mac


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#41 Eric5h5

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 06:59 PM

View Postteflon, on January 6th 2007, 06:10 PM, said:

a better policy to giving games more copy protection and higher prices would be to lower prices by a few dollars or pounds. That would, in turn, tempt more people to buy the game, get more sales, and so get more people actually buying the game as opposed to pirating it.

That's been tried since the '80s, and unfortunately it doesn't really work.  Bottom line is that the people who are going to buy it, buy it, and the people who aren't, aren't.  Some dollars/pounds either way doesn't have any particular effect on those numbers, so the only thing that happens with lower prices is that companies earn less money.  Sales usually don't increase enough to offset the lower prices.  It does often work with physical items because they can't be easily copied, but in the digital world, pirates continue to pirate whether it's $30 or $50.

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#42 the Battle Cat

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 07:49 PM

View PostRed Guard, on January 6th 2007, 01:16 PM, said:

Just how did I "give the wink and the nod to pirates"?
Here.

Quote

If you don't believe that's a fact then feel free to argue against it...
See below.

Quote

Don't twist my words.
Those weren't your words, they were mine, and that was my argument.

Quote

I am boycotting software companies that adopt INVASIVE and/or CRAPPY anti-piracy schemes. If they can come up with a good system that doesn't make us legit consumers feel like we're being punished, I'm all for it.
It's ultimately the software companies' choice to decide what kind of solution to adopt to combat software piracy. They could choose to adopt something that works and doesn't make consumers feel like they are being punished, or they could do what they do now... So the software companies are responsible for us consumers having to put up with this BS, not the pirates.
You are punishing the wrong people.  A company cannot distinguish customers from pirates when their games are in private homes.  No game company seeks to "punish" it's customers only to protect themselves from pirates.  Saying that "the software companies are responsible for us consumers having to put up with the BS" and not the pirates (another wink and a nod to pirates) is like saying that the police are responsible for crime and not the criminals.  If it weren't for the pirates there would be no anti-piracy measures taken, a company wound never waste it's resources like that otherwise.  Focus on changing the people who are at fault, not those reacting to it trying to protect themselves.  

You are of course free to take your consumer dollars where you want, I'm not trying to tell you how to spend your money.  I'm simply pointing out who you should blame for the problem of copy protection schemes, the people who steal the games.

I'm doing my part to help solve the problem.  I don't let people post links to warez or abandonware.  I delete posts that give directions for cracks and hacks.  I argue against piracy.  I have even deleted posts and threads that promote piracy.  Others here click on the "Report" button when they even suspect piracy in any form.  I invite you to participate in that, do your part to help solve the problem.

Inside Mac Games has had a very strict stand on piracy since long before I first logged on, it was one of the things that attracted me to it.  Software pirates are not welcome here.
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#43 Aika

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 08:02 PM

What really bugs me is Aspyr's habit of not allowing disk images to be used. Needing the DVD is one thing but outright banning disk images is just obnoxious. I have three of their games and I need the DVD to be in the drive for all of them even for multi-player. It's ridiculous.
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#44 Guest_Red Guard_*

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 08:37 PM

Quote

Saying that "the software companies are responsible for us consumers having to put up with the BS" and not the pirates (another wink and a nod to pirates) is like saying that the police are responsible for crime and not the criminals.
Horrible comparison.

Police only exists to serve and protect the citizens from criminals, or at least that's what they are SUPPOSED to do. Software companies only exist to make money.

But hey, if software companies believe they can make money by adopting invasive anti-piracy systems and punish legit consumers, let them do so. This is a free market, relatively at least, if they abuse the consumers, they won't be around for too long.

There you go twisting my words again... <sigh>

Piracy is illegal, pirates are criminals. That is very much black and white. However, what you and your pose here are justifying software companies' action of adopting invasive anti-piracy systems and blaming it all on pirates.

Software companies have a choice as to how to combat software piracy, they don't HAVE TO choose an invasive method.

Why is that so difficult for some to understand?

Quote

If it weren't for the pirates there would be no anti-piracy measures taken, a company wound never waste it's resources like that otherwise. Focus on changing the people who are at fault, not those reacting to it trying to protect themselves.
Screw the software companies. You make it seem like they are non-profit organizations trying to make the world a better place. They are just businesses, out to make a buck. They don't deserve sympathy, every industry has their own problems. I buy my games, they have my money, that's as far as my relationship to software companies go. I don't owe them anything so I don't feel why I should help them fight piracy so THEY can make a few more bucks and their owners can buy new beach front properties and a new yacht. But if they dare invade my system just because they can't handle their problems properly, I will fight for my right as a consumer.

Now if you actually work in the software industry, I can see why you care. But as general consumers, piracy is the software companies' problem, it's their choice on how to deal with it. If a software company chooses a method that's invasive, it will turn away potential businesses and in the end, it's their loss.

More power to you if you want to start a crusade against pirates. I have more urgent real life issues to deal with before I could donate any more time and money to software companies. I buy my games, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing my part.

#45 Frigidman™

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 08:45 PM

Just some other tidbit of information:

Digital Download sales have been an overwhelming success (more sales than a-list games !?!)... and they do not incorporate any copy protection other than a serialization unlock code.

They are not suffering more or less from supposed hypothetical piracy loss-of-revenue numbers that the a-list games seem to suffer from.

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#46 Rev-O

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:15 PM

View PostAika, on January 6th 2007, 07:02 PM, said:

What really bugs me is Aspyr's habit of not allowing disk images to be used. Needing the DVD is one thing but outright banning disk images is just obnoxious. I have three of their games and I need the DVD to be in the drive for all of them even for multi-player. It's ridiculous.

What makes this even more silly is the fact that the games require a key for installation. Key for installation & physical disc check. That's just annoying. Just do an online authentification and activation with a serial number check off the disc and a key and do away with everything else. Yes, it would be annoying to have to go online before you can even play your new game and it could hamper the used game market, but it seems to me it would be at least as effective as all the other schemes, and easier on the consumer in the long run. You'd only use your game disc for the install then be able to put it away forever. Only registered games and users would be able to get updates. No physical disc checks. Sure it would be cracked in short order, but it would at least make life a bit more complicated for people who want to pilfer the game. Seems like a fair system to me.

#47 Dark_Archon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:22 PM

View PostFrigidman, on January 6th 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

Digital Download sales have been an overwhelming success (more sales than a-list games !?!)... and they do not incorporate any copy protection other than a serialization unlock code.

It works too. I wish the Digital Download distributors would send out the manuals for games, but I love not requiring the cd. I still back these up for archival purposes. I can't wait until ASPYR gets their thing launched.
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#48 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:30 PM

View PostRev-O, on January 6th 2007, 09:15 PM, said:

What makes this even more silly is the fact that the games require a key for installation. Key for installation & physical disc check. That's just annoying. Just do an online authentification and activation with a serial number check off the disc and a key and do away with everything else. Yes, it would be annoying to have to go online before you can even play your new game and it could hamper the used game market, but it seems to me it would be at least as effective as all the other schemes, and easier on the consumer in the long run. You'd only use your game disc for the install then be able to put it away forever. Only registered games and users would be able to get updates. No physical disc checks. Sure it would be cracked in short order, but it would at least make life a bit more complicated for people who want to pilfer the game. Seems like a fair system to me.

As long as you can still play even if you aren't connected to the internet once you have it installed and authenticated. Kind of like Steam.
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#49 bobbob

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:39 PM

View PostFrigidman, on January 5th 2007, 01:49 PM, said:

I'm one of them, and I fully support those things because it allows me to keep my original CD's in a nice and cozy safe place!

Get the coals hot, we've got a slow cooker tonight. You know what advocating cracks gets you in these here parts?

#50 Lowry

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:01 PM

On first install is fine.
But every time you want to play a net or solo game- please no.

#51 Aika

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:37 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on January 7th 2007, 04:30 AM, said:

As long as you can still play even if you aren't connected to the internet once you have it installed and authenticated. Kind of like Steam.
Adding my old Valve games to my Steam account so that I would not have to worry any more about CD keys and having my old CDs around was like an epiphany. If I can do likewise with my Aspyr games (both "old" and new: I prefer boxed copies if the download is the same price) via their Gamerhood app then I will be one happy bunny.

Steam does not punish legitimate gamers, it rewards and conveniences them and I hope that Gamerhood will do similar things for Mac gaming.
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#52 Rev-O

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 01:17 AM

View PostAika, on January 6th 2007, 10:37 PM, said:

Adding my old Valve games to my Steam account so that I would not have to worry any more about CD keys and having my old CDs around was like an epiphany. If I can do likewise with my Aspyr games (both "old" and new: I prefer boxed copies if the download is the same price) via their Gamerhood app then I will be one happy bunny.

Steam does not punish legitimate gamers, it rewards and conveniences them and I hope that Gamerhood will do similar things for Mac gaming.

I give this a thumbsup as well. Hopefully someone from Aspyr is taking notes...

#53 digt

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 03:37 AM

I used to be a big computer gamer and as time goes by I find myself less and less interested because of things like this. I've heard the arguments before and everyone's arguments are really valid, both from the sides of gaming companies and users. It's such a complicated issue and to me, it doesn't matter.

If I can't play my game the way I want to, I won't buy it at all. There are tons of other things I can do for entertainment and over the years I've been heading that way. It's not just issues like copy protection and piracy that bother me but also the licenses and the way games act now like using my internet connect without explicitly asking me.  Now don't get me wrong because I love Mac gaming, I have been a Mac gamer for more than a decade and I'm sure I've spent thousands, but the bottom line is it might not be worth it.

In the future I'm going to have to wonder if a game will try and install some programs running in the background without me knowing only telling me in super small fine print somewhere. What if it interferes with other programs that I need? What if these programs have serious bugs? I could "what if" forever. It's going to happen and some people will put up with it because it doesn't bother them, some people will think that it does bother them but there is a certain must-play game, or they maybe don't know what is happening. I won't be one of those people and I've come to realize something two things about how I like games.

Simple is better.

It just has to work.

#54 the Battle Cat

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 12:00 PM

View PostRed Guard, on January 6th 2007, 06:37 PM, said:

Horrible comparison.

Police only exists to serve and protect the citizens from criminals, or at least that's what they are SUPPOSED to do. Software companies only exist to make money.

But hey, if software companies believe they can make money by adopting invasive anti-piracy systems and punish legit consumers, let them do so. This is a free market, relatively at least, if they abuse the consumers, they won't be around for too long.

There you go twisting my words again... <sigh>

Piracy is illegal, pirates are criminals. That is very much black and white. However, what you and your pose here are justifying software companies' action of adopting invasive anti-piracy systems and blaming it all on pirates.

Software companies have a choice as to how to combat software piracy, they don't HAVE TO choose an invasive method.

Why is that so difficult for some to understand?
Screw the software companies. You make it seem like they are non-profit organizations trying to make the world a better place. They are just businesses, out to make a buck. They don't deserve sympathy, every industry has their own problems. I buy my games, they have my money, that's as far as my relationship to software companies go. I don't owe them anything so I don't feel why I should help them fight piracy so THEY can make a few more bucks and their owners can buy new beach front properties and a new yacht. But if they dare invade my system just because they can't handle their problems properly, I will fight for my right as a consumer.

Now if you actually work in the software industry, I can see why you care. But as general consumers, piracy is the software companies' problem, it's their choice on how to deal with it. If a software company chooses a method that's invasive, it will turn away potential businesses and in the end, it's their loss.

More power to you if you want to start a crusade against pirates. I have more urgent real life issues to deal with before I could donate any more time and money to software companies. I buy my games, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing my part.
And you make it sound like game companies all have giant Scrooge McDuck piggy bank shaped money bins that they swim around in.  How much money is it acceptable to steal from you?  You don't seem to be clear on the source of the problems you are experiencing.  You are blaming the victims, when it is the perpetrators who deserve your wrath.  Is that how rape victims are to be treated when they take measures to protect themselves?  The pirates ARE your problem.  Pirates are why you are POed at the game companies trying to protect themselves.  Pirates are why you can't copy your disks.  Pirates are why you have to enter a CD key.  Pirates are why you have to have your CD in the drive.  Pirates are why you have Steam schemes.  Pirates are why this news thread is announcing SafeDsc by Macrovision.  Pirates are driving up costs to the user.  Pirates are the ones who are making your gaming life miserable.

Take this perspective as an example.  If a game company spent a bunch of money to make a game but only one copy was sold to a pirate who copied it and gave it to other pirates who did the same the company would only get 50 dollars return on it's investment.  That's worse case scenario and would never happen but it scales down accurately to real world numbers with more purchases and fewer pirates.  A company has to protect itself from this.  It has a right to protect itself.  A pirate doesn't have that right, he is a criminal who should be shunned by honest gamers and punished by the law as the thief that he is.  No pirates = no software protection.  If you presented a solution to the game companies that is effective against piracy without inconveniencing the honest consumer, I'm positive they'd use it.  No company wants to antagonize it's customer base.

Here it is in black and white:
Game companies - Victims of theft
Software pirates - Perpetrators of theft

Who are you blaming for YOUR gaming problems again?  Even though you keep saying it isn't your problem, you keep complaining about your problem.

To everybody here: If you care about what is happening to your games, then take a stand against the source of the problem.  Be a man when it comes to confronting a friend who is pirating.  Be a man when it comes to reporting a warez link or pirate activity.  Speak out against software piracy.  You can't sit there and let others nanny you through life thinking it's someone else's problem or that they will have your best interests at heart (no Red Guard, I don't think game companies particularly have our best interest at heart but pirates are even less inclined to the Nth power).  Stick up for yourself and the things you believe in.  You will be surprised how much power you wield as an individual.  Game companies can't be where ever gamers are.  Cops can't be where ever gamers are.  But gamers ARE where ever gamers are.  We are the first line of defense... if we have the backbone.  Otherwise the pirates dictate the terms.
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#55 Aika

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 12:15 PM

You are missing the point tBC. These anti-piracy schemes are ineffective. They always get cracked. To these pirate groups it's a game that they enjoy and pride themselves on (often cracking them before the game even hits the shelves). So in the end the paying customer has hoops to jump through whilst your average dickhead downloading a game via bittorrent has none. I have every right to be annoyed at gaming companies for employing these measures when they inconvenience me whilst the software pirates get a hassle free experience. Frankly games companies "losing money" because of software pirates is not my problem. I buy my games, I have fulfilled my part of the bargain and I don't expect to have my enjoyment lessened by anti-piracy schemes that have never worked.
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#56 teflon

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 12:42 PM

i think that the perfect solution to piracy is as follows.
upon installation, with an original disc (possibly with something like SafeDisc on it), in put the serial number given to you. This is then verified on a central server, and the game is allowed to create a file that ties that serial number in with you machines serial number. Allow installation onto 3 machines, with the game company being contactable in order to remove the ties from the machines on the server (which would be the hard part to do).
if a game is installed from a pirated copy, have it hold the system folder to ransom, and say to contact the game company, upon which, you have to grovel and beg to get the system folder back (im mean)..

the only ways to justify this, and make it practicable and feasible for the long term would be to have a demo released simultaneously with every release, and to issue a new patcher/installer which removes these restrictions, and just makes the game run based on the serial code.

or do digital downloads. up to you.
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#57 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 01:45 PM

In a way I can see why some people might view Steam as just an anti-piracy measure. However my experience with it so far has been positive. Steam thus far has proven to me to be a fairly painless and reasonable experience. I prefer Steam's model over say... iTunes for a few reasons.

On iTunes when you purchase a song\video\whatever you are only purchasing the right to download it once. With Steam when you log in with your account and a game you have purchased is not installed on your computer you can download and install it. So for example when I was messing around with installing Linux on the PC I could run Steam through crossover and then when I finally decided to reinstall Windows I could reinstall Steam and the games I own through them. You don't have to worry about losing your games purchases this way.

Also if you own a physical copy of a game offered on Steam, like Half-life or even a third party game such as Prey you can authenticate your registration code with Steam and download your game through them. So as long as you still have your legit registration code you can still play your game. You don't see anything like this with iTunes.

It seems to me that Steam errs on the side of the user a lot more than iTunes does. The only thing in my opinion that Steam threatens is the used game market or trading games with your friends.

The drawback though is if Gamerhood is like Steam certain games don't have registration codes\CD Keys so those games you'd have to buy all over again. But if the prices are reasonable like $10USD or less for Alice.
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Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

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#58 bobbob

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 02:29 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on January 7th 2007, 01:45 PM, said:

Pirates are why you can't copy your disks. Pirates are why you have to enter a CD key. Pirates are why you have to have your CD in the drive. Pirates are why you have Steam schemes. Pirates are why this news thread is announcing SafeDsc by Macrovision. Pirates are driving up costs to the user.

StarDock's Galactic Civilizations 2 makes it pretty clear that bottom-feeding snakeoil salesmen peddling their wares to people who failed computer science 300 - Logic and Programming are why pirates have the experience paying customers deserve.

#59 Frigidman™

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 03:29 PM

View Postbobbob, on January 6th 2007, 11:39 PM, said:

Get the coals hot, we've got a slow cooker tonight. You know what advocating cracks gets you in these here parts?
I don't give a popsnizzle. I actually _had_ to resort to a NoCD for a Ubicrap game that refused to acknowledge my legit CD (Splinter Cell). I even told Ubidopes about this, and they still failed to produce a working patch so I could play my game 'legitamately'. So yeah... advocating cracks I guess is what I did. Bite me. However it was the fault of the company for making a junky protection scheme that made me feel slighted that I paid for something I could not play without resorting to a hack.

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 7th 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

You are blaming the victims, when it is the perpetrators who deserve your wrath. The pirates ARE your problem.  Pirates are why ... (snip) ...  No pirates = no software protection.
You seem to think that there is some sort of chance that people will go "oh this is wrong, I will stop". And you seem to think EVERYONE will do this. Please come back to the real world :D Until human nature is fundamentally changed, there are going to be bad people out there who do not care what you try to convince them of whats 'right'.

As a result of these bad people, its the good people who suffer. Game companies are only fueling the fire with their poor methods of protection. They abuse the good to 'try' to hurt the bad, but simply are fire trucking blind to this fact.

We (the people here who have voiced how tired they are with the arcane and abusive protection methods) are taking the plight to the game companies to "GET WITH IT" and either A) make up something that finally works (haha right), or B) give up trying and start being friendly to those who are legit customers. Because pirates are simply not going to give a rats about what is right or not or people trying to ~convert~ them.

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 7th 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

A company has to protect itself from this.  It has a right to protect itself.  If you presented a solution to the game companies that is effective against piracy without inconveniencing the honest consumer, I'm positive they'd use it.  ... No company wants to antagonize it's customer base.
Then why havn't they? Why do they still try these stupid measure that DO NOT WORK. Many people have come up with alternatives (now and in the past). Many of which would be better than what companies do now. Yet it seems they do NOT listen.

Also, maybe game companies should give incentives towards people who actually buy the game. What incentives are there for pirates to NOT pirate? None... the incentive pirates go off of is "I saved $50 and get to put another notch in my cracking belt for my l33t friends to see".

Legit customers have to put up with higher prices and annoying as all hell copy protection schemes....... all in the name of 'fighting back against piracy'. Who are the game companies fighting here? Sure feels like they are throwing their punches at the PAYING CUSTOMER.

Still, what you say to take a stand against pirates is valid. It just won't make an impact. I'm a realist, not a dreamer.

Edit:
Oh, and just so I'm clear... I do not support piracy. Neither does IMG, nor anyone with a soul and conscious. Downloading 'patches' that make your game run better is not piracy, nor supporting it. Its called saving your investment (both in hardware, and in the game media). If game companies would fork out cash to pay for worn out drives, and worn out media you bought... then people wouldn't worry or rely on the patches. But game companies will _never_ do that.

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#60 the Battle Cat

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 03:36 PM

View PostAika, on January 7th 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

You are missing the point tBC. These anti-piracy schemes are ineffective. They always get cracked. To these pirate groups it's a game that they enjoy and pride themselves on (often cracking them before the game even hits the shelves). So in the end the paying customer has hoops to jump through whilst your average dickhead downloading a game via bittorrent has none. I have every right to be annoyed at gaming companies for employing these measures when they inconvenience me whilst the software pirates get a hassle free experience. Frankly games companies "losing money" because of software pirates is not my problem. I buy my games, I have fulfilled my part of the bargain and I don't expect to have my enjoyment lessened by anti-piracy schemes that have never worked.
I'm simply saying that we should blame the source of the problem.  The software pirates.  Remove pirates from the equation and there is no copy protection problem.  If you are inconvenienced by protection schemes then that is a problem you are having.  It's your problem - it's not Joe Blow's problem down the street who doesn't buy software - it's your problem.  You are not totally helpless, you can make a difference.  

I agree that you have a right to be annoyed, I'm annoyed and inconvenienced too.  I hate not being able to back up my CD's etc.  I don't agree that protection schemes are ineffective against pirates.  I'll grant they are not 100% effective, that much is obvious to most folks but nothing is going to be very effective until the mindset on it being cool to pirate is changed.  That's where you come into the picture as you interact with your peers.  Do the right thing, encourage others to do the same.  Lead by example.

Bottom line: No pirates = no software protection countermeasures.
Gary Simmons
the Battle Cat