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Anti-Piracy SafeDisc Coming to the Mac


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#21 No One

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 08:17 PM

View PostFrigidman, on January 5th 2007, 03:30 PM, said:

Maybe they should go back to the "look up word X on page Y in paragraph Z..." lol... just as pathetic as what they do now.

I am just glad those days are dead. I hated having to go to the closet and get out the game manual for RoboSport every time I wanted to play.

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on January 5th 2007, 03:06 PM, said:

On the Computer games typically install so it's an inconvenience to have to insert a disc each time you play. Especially after you put aside the time and hard drive space to install the game and it takes a nice chunk of your total hard drive space. This has been the complaint for as long as games required both installation and the disc in the drive on a computer.

That's pretty much how I feel. Adding in CD copy protection produces a worst of both worlds effect. Plus, I play games differently between consoles and computer. The area around my TV and chair are fairly clear of debris and it's easy to just get a game from the cabinet and sit down. I also tend to play console games for longer periods of time, so getting out a disk doesn't really take a large percentage of total game time away.

Computer is different. I do work on the computer, so I tend to have a lot of books and papers around it. Due to the mess, it takes more work to get game disks out and set everything up to play a game. Plus, since I'm on the computer most of the day, sometimes I just want to play a game for a few minutes and stop. It's annoying to have to get up and grab a disk when I'm already there on the computer.

#22 the Battle Cat

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 08:40 PM

View PostRed Guard, on January 5th 2007, 05:49 PM, said:

If I were the developers or publishers, I would do everything I can to reduce piracy as well. But we are consumers...
There is a lot you can do as a concerned consumer and indeed it may be mostly on your shoulders as a consumer.  Take a stand.  When a friend says he pirated software, don't just give him a wink and a nod or a knowing little smile.  Explain how he and others like him are a huge problem in today's gaming.  Make him feel guilty for stealing something.  Do something about it, report him to the game company he stole from even!  Stealing software is not going to slow down or stop as long as it is "cool" to pirate.  Copy protection mostly hurts honest gamers, but fight back at the REAL culprits not the game companies.
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#23 Eric5h5

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 08:58 PM

One problem (of many) with increasingly draconian DVD/CD copy protection is that it's directly at odds with the increase in direct on-line sales where you have no DVD or CD at all.

I haven't gotten to the point of looking for cracks, but I have sometimes kinda wanted to play a game, only to realise that I would have to put the DVD in, and then ended up not playing because of not wanting to go through the bother of looking for the DVD.  (And I'm not really that disorganised; I just have a lot of them.)  I'm probably more sympathetic to the plight of game publishers than most, but I just can't believe that messing around with legit customers like that is really the best answer.

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#24 Rev-O

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:00 PM

View PostRed Guard, on January 5th 2007, 06:49 PM, said:

Oh please, you make it sound as if I support piracy...  :glare:

I am merely pointing out the fact that when software companies use the word "lost", they are being extremely misleading.

Also, while piracy will definitely affect a software company's profit, it's not as if everyone who pirated a game would actually spend the money to buy it if they could afford it. But of course, this is all hypothetical, just like the amount of money software companies CLAIM they've... "lost" due to piracy...  :cool:

This is true. Not everyone who pirates a game normally would've purchased the game but it is in the software companies' best interests to present things as such. It makes their arguements sound so much more appealing when they (the software companies) claim "We lost X number of sales to piracy" instead of "X numbers of our game were pirated and we have no actual data to show how much this negetively impacted our sales." I understand that this was the point you were making in the first point before I cracked on you about the quiblbing over semantics ;)

View PostTesseract, on January 5th 2007, 06:48 PM, said:

I disagree. If there is no agreement on the meaning of the words being used, how can a reasoned argument ever take place?
I agree with you in principle. Clearly defining the language of discourse sets the parameters of the discussion. However, typically semantics are used to find ways to validate or invalidate the language of the argument instead of the principle of the argument. On one side of semantics is the land of spin and on the other the kingdom of the loophole. Of course I exaggerate to make my point  :P

I have no issue with the concept of copyprotection, but I do have issue with the implementation of it. I gamed through the copy protection schemes for Atari STs and Amigas, where you'd have to pull out the game manual and enter the 29th word in the the 4th paragraph from the 17th page each time you played the game (only a slight exaggeration)! Those were the halcyon days of obtrusive copyprotection. One game (cannot remember which one now) even had the ubiquitous code key page printed on a nasty reddish paper designed to photocopy black. Copy protection scheme for the copy protection scheme. It made the page just about unreadable. Yah, I would shy away from a game with invasive and craptastic copyprotection schemes myself.

If one posits that copyprotection will forever be a part of computer gaming, what form would strike the best balance between efficacy and transparency? I will admit that I and not knowledgable it is to crack various copyprotection schemes but I can speak to what I would tolerate as a consumer. I would be okay with online registration/activation/unlocking of games for an initial booting but without a 'disc to play' requirement. I have no issue with the whole cd key thing either, but once again hate the whole 'disc to play' requirement. Isn't the flipping CD key enough? I despise the Bioware 'internet check to load a game' variety used for the premium Nwn modules.

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:16 PM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 5th 2007, 08:40 PM, said:

There is a lot you can do as a concerned consumer and indeed it may be mostly on your shoulders as a consumer.  Take a stand.  When a friend says he pirated software, don't just give him a wink and a nod or a knowing little smile.  Explain how he and others like him are a huge problem in today's gaming.  Make him feel guilty for stealing something.  Do something about it, report him to the game company he stole from even!  Stealing software is not going to slow down or stop as long as it is "cool" to pirate.  Copy protection mostly hurts honest gamers, but fight back at the REAL culprits not the game companies.
I'm almost 27, my friends are all professionals and can very much afford games, and do ;)

I very much understand everything you've just said but unless I quit my day job and start strolling through neighborhoods and educate teenagers about why they shouldn't pirate, I doubt I could make much of a difference except boycott software companies who adopt invasive and/or crappy copy-protection systems...

View PostRev-O, on January 5th 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

This is true. Not everyone who pirates a game normally would've purchased the game but it is in the software companies' best interests to present things as such. It makes their arguements sound so much more appealing when they (the software companies) claim "We lost X number of sales to piracy" instead of "X numbers of our game were pirated and we have no actual data to show how much this negetively impacted our sales." I understand that this was the point you were making in the first point before I cracked on you about the quiblbing over semantics ;)
I agree with you in principle. Clearly defining the language of discourse sets the parameters of the discussion. However, typically semantics are used to find ways to validate or invalidate the language of the argument instead of the principle of the argument. On one side of semantics is the land of spin and on the other the kingdom of the loophole. Of course I exaggerate to make my point  :P
Point is, software companies purposely mislead the public when it comes to the affect of piracy on their business.

#26 Sylvan

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:32 PM

Not that I consider piracy a good thing, but it can have its advantages in some situations.  Hypothetical example:

Think of all the kids in school that can't afford 50 bucks for a game.  Now if it happened to primarily be a multiplayer-oriented game, and all these kids decided not to pirate it, you'd lose a huge chunk of the online gaming population.  Then the legit gamers that bought their copy would have hardly anyone to play with, and they'd get bored, and move on to something else.  Also, the game publisher might lose out on some of the "buzz" that they might get out on the street if everyone is playing their game.  Instead of "Yea, Unreal Tournament is the best!  Epic rulez!", it would be "Dang.. Epic's games are so expensive that I can't play them.  Those greedy bastards!"

Yea... it's a lame argument but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate  :P

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:05 PM

View PostSylvan, on January 5th 2007, 09:32 PM, said:

Not that I consider piracy a good thing, but it can have its advantages in some situations.  Hypothetical example:

Think of all the kids in school that can't afford 50 bucks for a game.  Now if it happened to primarily be a multiplayer-oriented game, and all these kids decided not to pirate it, you'd lose a huge chunk of the online gaming population.  Then the legit gamers that bought their copy would have hardly anyone to play with, and they'd get bored, and move on to something else.  Also, the game publisher might lose out on some of the "buzz" that they might get out on the street if everyone is playing their game.  Instead of "Yea, Unreal Tournament is the best!  Epic rulez!", it would be "Dang.. Epic's games are so expensive that I can't play them.  Those greedy bastards!"

Yea... it's a lame argument but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate  :P
As a consumer, I completely agree with you.

<sarcasm>But if I were a developer or publisher though, I won't be happy until all the pimply kids in school starve themselves for two weeks so they could save $5 a day from their lunch money so they can buy my game. Oh, and if it's a MMORPG, these kids would have to starve at least a few more days per month in order to KEEP playing the game.</sarcasm>

OK but seriously, software developers and publishers are running businesses. When you run a business, things can be quite simple, you either make money, or you don't. Your investors won't be happy if you decided to overlook a moderate amount of piracy just to "create buzz". They would yank their investment from your bank account faster than you think.

#28 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:24 PM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 5th 2007, 07:40 PM, said:

Do something about it, report him to the game company he stole from even!

The other stuff sounded OK but damn! I'm not sure I'd go this far.
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#29 No One

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:44 PM

View PostSylvan, on January 5th 2007, 08:32 PM, said:

Think of all the kids in school that can't afford 50 bucks for a game.  Now if it happened to primarily be a multiplayer-oriented game, and all these kids decided not to pirate it, you'd lose a huge chunk of the online gaming population.  Then the legit gamers that bought their copy would have hardly anyone to play with, and they'd get bored, and move on to something else.  Also, the game publisher might lose out on some of the "buzz" that they might get out on the street if everyone is playing their game.  Instead of "Yea, Unreal Tournament is the best!  Epic rulez!", it would be "Dang.. Epic's games are so expensive that I can't play them.  Those greedy bastards!"

Of course, it might have other effects too. I know that it makes me a bit angry when I pay full price for a new game and have to wait for it to become available, while pirates have it almost immediately for free.

It could have another downside for online gaming. If a person downloaded a game and is using a key generator (or stolen keys) to play it then they can easily change the key they are using. Hence, it would be more difficult to ban a cheating pirate.

#30 Ichigo27

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 11:47 PM

View PostPegasus, on January 5th 2007, 04:51 PM, said:

This argument is not a very good one. After all, you'll always be required to enter the game CDs on consoles.

Unless the game your playing requires a disc to install onto the harddrive, or easily downloaded by a application.

View Postkingarthur_kom, on January 5th 2007, 07:05 PM, said:

Yep those console CDs always get scratched up from wear. That's one of the reasons I don't own any consoles.

As DVDs and regular CDs shipped with any computer game don't even get scratch. :cool:
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#31 Frigidman™

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 09:48 AM

I do know, if developers start charging more for their games because of the 'damage' pirates do to their marketshare, and the 'costs' of anti-piracy development... then developers will just be asking for MORE piracy to occur heh. I mean, who wants to pay $100 for a short adventure game you'll play once?

Online play games are basically a no-brainer. Because you require a legit account, and pay for it each month... having those games also require a cd/dvd in the drive to play is just abusive to the customer.

Bottom line is: No matter WHAT anti-piracy scheme they try to make for solo games (non mmo) that people can play offline, the game CAN be cracked and pirated.

And to get back on main topic, with cider and this SafeDick popsnizzle... its just another reason why I hate that cider junk.

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#32 the Battle Cat

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:13 AM

View PostRed Guard, on January 5th 2007, 07:16 PM, said:

I'm almost 27, my friends are all professionals and can very much afford games, and do ;)

I very much understand everything you've just said but unless I quit my day job and start strolling through neighborhoods and educate teenagers about why they shouldn't pirate, I doubt I could make much of a difference except boycott software companies who adopt invasive and/or crappy copy-protection systems...
I'm 58 and can say the same thing.  But you don't have to stroll through the neighborhood being a game cop, you are here online in a public forum giving that wink and the nod to pirates, later on even agreeing that piracy HELPS gaming by supporting a large online gaming community.

Your strategy is backwards, boycott the pirates and the worst of the anti pirate schemes go away.  Boycott the game companies and the computer games go away.
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#33 Bernie

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:24 AM

View PostIMG News, on January 5th 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

"More than $3 billion annually are lost worldwide to video game piracy."
$3 Billion is complete BS number. It is the highest possible number that the video game industry could come up with to make it sound as bad as possible to "justify" the use of obnoxious copy protections. Here are some ways that the number has been inflated:
  • The number represents the value of the pirated games, not the lost sales. The lost sales are lower, possible much lower. (How much lower - I don't think that anyone really has a good idea.) Many people would not buy some of their pirated games if the pirated copies were not available. Different reasons: low income, on "principle" that the games are over-priced, cheapskates.
  • The highest possible values of the pirated games are used. The on sale, with a coupon, and get a rebate costs are never used. If a game at one time had a peak cost of $65 - but you can now find in the bargain bin for $4.95 - the industry will use $65 when figuring out that $3 billion number.
  • The methods that industry uses to count the number of pirated games errs on the side of larger counts. For example, if a games sold 10,000 copies but a patch has been downloaded 50,000 times, then the industry assumes that there are at least 40,000 pirated copies. That is wrong. Haven't you ever had to re-download a patch because you re-installed a favorite game or simply because the download got cut-off before it finished? I have; there are patches that I've downloaded at least a dozen times.
If I can't afford a game, I do without. I won't even use a pirated copy of a game that doesn't have a demo to see if I like it enough to buy it. One of the things that makes IMG such a great resource is that I can find out more about demo-less games before deciding to buy or not buy a game. (I'd still prefer to try a demo first.)

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#34 Rev-O

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:08 AM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 6th 2007, 09:13 AM, said:

I'm 58 and can say the same thing.  But you don't have to stroll through the neighborhood being a game cop, you are here online in a public forum giving that wink and the nod to pirates, later on even agreeing that piracy HELPS gaming by supporting a large online gaming community.

Your strategy is backwards, boycott the pirates and the worst of the anti pirate schemes go away.  Boycott the game companies and the computer games go away.

Quoted for truth.
Copy protection didn't occur in a vacuum.
I buy the games I play and the software I use becasue I want to support the companies that make games and software for the Mac. I loath software piracy because I end up paying for it with idiotic copyprotection schemes. The idiots who torrent games are the ones responsible for for SafeDisc and the legit customer pays the price.

#35 teflon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:29 AM

ill openly admit to having tried a game without a demo...
the main instance was Halo, and i needed to see if it would run OK on my hardware. I was looking to buy it already, but if it had run atrociously, then I would have stayed away. luckily, it ran just fine.
i have done it with a few other games, but i cant remember what they were. i think i tried Sims 2, but it was totally unplayable, so that was deleted.

the main thing for me, these days, is that performance is an issue for me. Im right at the bottom of the bottom, and in a lot of cases am now playing games on hardware which isnt just below the spec, but doesnt even exist on the mac.

i wont pirate a game just for the heck of it, I will only use it for demo purposes and then, seeing as its a time and effort thing, only if I need to check on performance and there is no demo for the game. otherwise, I might just plunk down my cash anyway (but would prefer a demo).

my current dilema is the fact that theres no AoE3 demo... and i dont trust my computer to perform well enough in big battles... ill probably wait for a demo, or get a solid performance report from someone with similar specs... of course, i could skip this game for a little while and get the Movies.
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#36 Aika

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 02:27 PM

View PostEric5h5, on January 6th 2007, 02:58 AM, said:

I haven't gotten to the point of looking for cracks, but I have sometimes kinda wanted to play a game, only to realise that I would have to put the DVD in, and then ended up not playing because of not wanting to go through the bother of looking for the DVD.  (And I'm not really that disorganised; I just have a lot of them.)  I'm probably more sympathetic to the plight of game publishers than most, but I just can't believe that messing around with legit customers like that is really the best answer.
I agree with every word.

View PostBernie, on January 6th 2007, 04:24 PM, said:

$3 Billion is complete BS number.
Yep. A good portion of those pirated downloads are from warez scenesters, sad little creatures who download and collect any new game that gets cracked and released (only to never play it or if they do, for just ten minutes). These people who never buy a retail game so the lost sales thing is total bunk.

There will always be piracy and aggressive anti-piracy measures only alienate us legitimate gamers.
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Posted 06 January 2007 - 03:16 PM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on January 6th 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

you are here online in a public forum giving that wink and the nod to pirates
Just how did I "give the wink and the nod to pirates"?

Quote

later on even agreeing that piracy HELPS gaming by supporting a large online gaming community.
If you don't believe that's a fact then feel free to argue against it...

Quote

Your strategy is backwards, boycott the pirates and the worst of the anti pirate schemes go away.  Boycott the game companies and the computer games go away.
Don't twist my words.

I am boycotting software companies that adopt INVASIVE and/or CRAPPY anti-piracy schemes. If they can come up with a good system that doesn't make us legit consumers feel like we're being punished, I'm all for it.

Rev-O said:

The idiots who torrent games are the ones responsible for for SafeDisc and the legit customer pays the price.
It's ultimately the software companies' choice to decide what kind of solution to adopt to combat software piracy. They could choose to adopt something that works and doesn't make consumers feel like they are being punished, or they could do what they do now... So the software companies are responsible for us consumers having to put up with this BS, not the pirates.

Your argument is flawed. If you robbed me and stole my money for example, I have many choices, two that comes to mind is either I can report you to the police or I can track you down and beat you to death and get my money back. I can use your argument and say you are responsible for your own death.

Not a good example but I'm sure you get my point.

BTW, "quoted for truth"? Just because you agree with someone's opinion it doesn't make it true.

#38 Rev-O

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 04:31 PM

View PostRed Guard, on January 6th 2007, 02:16 PM, said:

Just how did I "give the wink and the nod to pirates"?

If you don't believe that's a fact then feel free to argue against it...
Don't twist my words.

I am boycotting software companies that adopt INVASIVE and/or CRAPPY anti-piracy schemes. If they can come up with a good system that doesn't make us legit consumers feel like we're being punished, I'm all for it.
It's ultimately the software companies' choice to decide what kind of solution to adopt to combat software piracy. They could choose to adopt something that works and doesn't make consumers feel like they are being punished, or they could do what they do now... So the software companies are responsible for us consumers having to put up with this BS, not the pirates.

Your argument is flawed. If you robbed me and stole my money for example, I have many choices, two that comes to mind is either I can report you to the police or I can track you down and beat you to death and get my money back. I can use your argument and say you are responsible for your own death.

Not a good example but I'm sure you get my point.

BTW, "quoted for truth"? Just because you agree with someone's opinion it doesn't make it true.

BTW, Just because you disagree doesn't make it false ;)
Your logic, and I use that term loosly, that software developers are solely responsible for the need for copyprotection is lacking. Invasive schemes are bad, we can all agree on that, but laying the blame entirely at the feet of developers and publishers is non sensical. Give credit where credit is due.

#39 teflon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:10 PM

a better policy to giving games more copy protection and higher prices would be to lower prices by a few dollars or pounds. That would, in turn, tempt more people to buy the game, get more sales, and so get more people actually buying the game as opposed to pirating it.

the only thing then would be the number of people still going and getting NoCD patches...
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Posted 06 January 2007 - 06:10 PM

View PostRev-O, on January 6th 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

BTW, Just because you disagree doesn't make it false ;)
Difference is, I never claimed TBC's opinion as "false", I just happen to disagree with it.

You, on the other hand, claimed it was the "truth".

View PostRev-O, on January 6th 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

Your logic, and I use that term loosly, that software developers are solely responsible for the need for copyprotection is lacking. Invasive schemes are bad, we can all agree on that, but laying the blame entirely at the feet of developers and publishers is non sensical. Give credit where credit is due.
The whole thing is actually very simple:

Software companies have a problem, piracy.

In order to deal with this problem, they have several options and it's their decision on which option to take, not the pirates. In this case, they chose to adopt invasive schemes.

Bottom line: software companies chose invasive schemes, not pirates.

Of course, I could've missed something and perhaps pirates got together and put a gun to the collective head of software companies and forced them to adopt invasive schemes...  :cool:

teflon said:

a better policy to giving games more copy protection and higher prices would be to lower prices by a few dollars or pounds. That would, in turn, tempt more people to buy the game, get more sales, and so get more people actually buying the game as opposed to pirating it.
In an idealistic world, that would work.

However we must all realize that software companies are ultimately, COMPANIES and their sole existence is to make money. Their investors wouldn't be very happy if they lower the prices of their products especially after having whined about "losing" $3 billion to pirates lol