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TransGaming Announces Cider


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#41 MacManX

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:40 PM

By the way, what game is this? http://www.transgami...een_cider01.jpg

#42 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:59 PM

View Postbobbob, on August 3rd 2006, 06:29 PM, said:

Pssst... just because the games use a particular path doesn't mean Wine does.

Pssst.. just because Wine does it a certain way that doesn't mean Cider will. But that's besides the point my point is that not all Windows games do things the same way especially newer games. It also depends on what level Wine simulates windows I have seen Wine simulate windows in a 9x mode so of course it won't use the same path as XP. So again it depends but I doubt Cider will do things the 9x way. At this point you aren't any more right about Cider than I am. So no it doesn't automatically mean it'll work the XP way but it doesn't mean it'll work the 9x way either. It depends on how transgaming implements it and how the original game is programmed.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

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#43 Janichsan

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 07:52 PM

I'm wondering how this is supposed to work:

Quote

Even patching for both platforms is a breeze since the Windows patch will also support the Mac version of the game.

Sure, the patch itself only changes the cider-ized, Windows source code based game, but how is it supposed to be installed? By a cider-ized installer? Meaning that we will be seeing some Windows installers?

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#44 MacManX

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 09:36 PM

View PostJanichsan, on August 4th 2006, 01:52 PM, said:

Sure, the patch itself only changes the cider-ized, Windows source code based game, but how is it supposed to be installed? By a cider-ized installer? Meaning that we will be seeing some Windows installers?

I was wondering the same thing myself. A Windows-based installer would of course try to put files in "C:\Program Files" so Cider would need to work around this. I suppose it's possible that they'd give us drag-drop installers, although they would be tricky to install if the games were originally distributed in "proper" .app bundles.

#45 bobbob

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:07 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on August 3rd 2006, 05:59 PM, said:

Pssst.. just because Wine does it a certain way that doesn't mean Cider will

It has to do something. "C:\Program Files" isn't a valid Mac path, and usually Wine (and Cedega, CodeWeavers) use a per-app base dir for the 'C drive'. If that base is in /Applications, it would be very easy to redirect writes to an overlay base directory in ~.

#46 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:37 PM

View Postbobbob, on August 3rd 2006, 10:07 PM, said:

It has to do something. "C:\Program Files" isn't a valid Mac path, and usually Wine (and Cedega, CodeWeavers) use a per-app base dir for the 'C drive'. If that base is in /Applications, it would be very easy to redirect writes to an overlay base directory in ~.

No sh..tuff sherlock. Don't you think I know that? I do have a Mac and a PC and have used Wine in Linux. Doesn't mean they can't wrap to mac equivalent paths since it's a standard system (the paths aren't different from mac to mac). In what way did I say that they would install a game exactly in OS X the same way as it's installed on the PC drive letters and all? Common sense man! It actually kind of insults my intelligence that you would bring up something so damn obvious. I'm sure if a game uses the documents and settings\user\ folder for it's preferences and savegames that they can wrap that to your application support folder and they should if they are going to pass a game ported with Cider as a first class application. Either way who said the "per app base folder" can't be in that folder anyway.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

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#47 Riko

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:28 PM

View PostEric5h5, on August 4th 2006, 02:39 AM, said:

That all sounds reasonable to me.  It's one thing for Cider to technically work like they claim (I expect that it probably does), and another thing to actually get companies to use it.  You'd think "Hey, if they can sell an additional X thousand copies of their game for hardly any effort, who wouldn't?" but it's never that simple....

--Eric

Yup there you have it. I doubt Valve will suddenly drop their anti-Mac behavior.

But it will be interesting to see what the future brings.
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#48 Janichsan

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 03:39 AM

I might be more enthusiastic if we had some information which "top tier video game publishers" we are talking about.

If this is Valve, planning to bring Half-Life 3 to the Mac ("We always wanted to support the Mac, but we couldn't afford one. Now we just have to develop on Windows and slap Cider on it."), or Take2, delivering the next GTA game on a hybrid disk ("We always wanted to support the Mac, but never couldn't trust anyone to look into the source code of the games we publish. Too much hot coffee, you know?") - okay, that would be fine.

But if it turns out that it's Blizzard ("Well, we always supported the Mac, but - to be honest - maintaining two platforms is a pain in the ass.") or EA ("Well, sure, we let Aspyr port all games of "The Sims" series, but - to be honest - we can't stand Glenda Adams' hairdo (sorry, Glenda) and want to do this ourselves (and as easy as possible).") or Epic ("Well, sure, we always supported the Mac by letting all games of the UT series being ported, but we don't like Ryan Gordon anymore. He ate all of our cookies."), I might be not quite so fond of Cider.

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#49 Peachey

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 04:17 AM

Quote

One that that will probably be affected is Mac OS integration of games. Some games take advantage of Mac only technologies to add Mac specific features. How will preference files be handled? Will they once again require full read and write access to the folder containing the game executable (Yes, I know about WoW...)? Will Cider handle all of that transparently writing files to appropriate user specific folders?

I think that there will be slight modifications to the game (so it can run on HFS+) and it will be easily possible to put all the crap you see on windows into a package, since the packages are just special folders really.

Hopefully this will alow mods to work, just by clicking "show package contents" and putting the mod files in.

If not you can move all the crap to a folder called Steam Data and just have a shortcut to the main application in the game folder.
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#50 Forrest

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 04:37 AM

How is this technology going to help the huge installed base of G3, G4 and G5 computers? There's a hell of a lot more PPC machines running OSX than there are Intel based Macs.

#51 Janichsan

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 04:44 AM

By the way: I just noticed, that Transgaming and Aspyr have a longer history of cooperation. (Check the portfolio - there are several ports by Aspyr listed.)

So, maybe it's not unreasonable to assume that Aspyr might make use of Cider.

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#52 DaveyJJ

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 04:59 AM

View PostEric5h5, on August 3rd 2006, 08:39 PM, said:

That all sounds reasonable to me.  It's one thing for Cider to technically work like they claim (I expect that it probably does), and another thing to actually get companies to use it.  You'd think "Hey, if they can sell an additional X thousand copies of their game for hardly any effort, who wouldn't?" but it's never that simple....

--Eric

Exactly. We're ususally always talking two layers here, say a cool group like Tilted Mill actually coding/developing the new Caesar IV for example, and a massive financial/legal entity whose only concern is profits not the games like Ubisoft (Starforce, anyone?), Vivendi, or EA or the like. You'll need to have the approval and encouragement of both levels here to get Cider into a game. I suspect the first group would be fine with it, it's the second group that will need convincing. And a few thousand extra copies sold might not be, in their eyes, worth the trouble.

But if this does work on games to the degree Transgaming is saying, I wonder if games massively popular upcoming games like Spore, for example, that are still in development will see a "Mac version" right off?

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#53 simfish

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 05:36 AM

Sorry if this is a really stupid obvious question but how does this work for games that use DirectX? I can understand for games using openGL but for DX games does it change the DX code to something that can be executed by OS X?

#54 wymer100

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 06:38 AM

I would think that this would allow significantly more games to be ported to the mac from an economic point of view. Currently, I think it takes the equivalent of 9-12 programmer months to port a game. If Cider works as planned, that cost drops to approximately 1 programmer month. That's a huge cost savings in manpower (or womanpower, as per Glenda). You still have the fixed costs of licensing the game as well as the added costs of licensing Cider, but you can't get around that. I believe that it takes 8-10k copies before Aspyr starts to see a profit. If that drops to 5-6k copies to make a profit, that opens things up significantly. Games that perhaps would have had razor thin margins before, now become profitable. I think this is bad for Brad Oliver, but I don't think it's bad for Aspyr or Apple.

This, of course, assumes that Cider works as advertised.

Does anyone know what happens with middleware licenses? As an example: If Aspyr licenses HL2 to use with Cider, do they still have to license Havoc?

#55 Morrigan

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 06:38 AM

View PostForrest, on August 4th 2006, 05:37 AM, said:

How is this technology going to help the huge installed base of G3, G4 and G5 computers? There's a hell of a lot more PPC machines running OSX than there are Intel based Macs.
I'd scratch G3s and G4s from your list of "installed base" because those machines aren't going to run new AAA titles anyway.

#56 Janichsan

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 07:19 AM

View Postsimfish, on August 4th 2006, 01:36 PM, said:

Sorry if this is a really stupid obvious question but how does this work for games that use DirectX? I can understand for games using openGL but for DX games does it change the DX code to something that can be executed by OS X?
Cider (and Cedega) redirects all DirectX commands to the appropiate OpenGL counterparts. Obviously, this works.

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#57 DaveyJJ

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 07:46 AM

View Postwymer100, on August 4th 2006, 08:38 AM, said:

... as well as the added costs of licensing Cider, but you can't get around that.

But that's partly the huge plus of Cider. Transgaming has said that rather than a PC-game developer (like Tilted Mill or Aspyr) having to lay out a huge upfront amount of money to license a piece of middleware [cough*Havok*cough] in the hopes that Mac sales will turn a profit/sell enough units, they get to pay on a per unit sold/royalty basis so there's no upfront additional costs for them (except the coding/programming part).

We'll soon see who these A-level PC developers are, but if it works as advertised will possibly open a great amount of upcoming games to the Mac community (or at least those who have Merom/Conroe/Xeon chips in their new Macs).

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#58 Riko

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 08:13 AM

View PostForrest, on August 4th 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

How is this technology going to help the huge installed base of G3, G4 and G5 computers? There's a hell of a lot more PPC machines running OSX than there are Intel based Macs.


Its like when Apple moved to the G3, all the old Apples running 68030 and 68040 chips
fel, or where left behind. Unreal (which was the main game on display when Steve Jobs
revealed the first G3 (233MHz?) was only playable on a G3 anything beneath those specs
was out of the question.
Same situation now. Its sad but what can one do? If you want to play next years titles, you
you need to upgrade your Mac since, probably, you will see lesser and less pre-Intel based games.
I'm somewhat happy I was last year 8 months in hospital and rehab otherwise I would
had bought a G5, and would be mighty pissed now....

#59 bobbob

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:03 AM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on August 3rd 2006, 09:37 PM, said:

No sh..tuff sherlock. Don't you think I know that?

With all these people talking about HFS+, and DirectX, and ... I just thought I'd try to tell them how it works.

Quote

I doubt Valve will suddenly drop their anti-Mac behavior

They support Linux by giving it over to Cedega, so it's not out of the question. Just don't expect DX9 ;)

#60 wymer100

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:53 AM

View PostDaveyJJ, on August 4th 2006, 07:46 AM, said:

But that's partly the huge plus of Cider. Transgaming has said that rather than a PC-game developer (like Tilted Mill or Aspyr) having to lay out a huge upfront amount of money to license a piece of middleware [cough*Havok*cough] in the hopes that Mac sales will turn a profit/sell enough units, they get to pay on a per unit sold/royalty basis so there's no upfront additional costs for them (except the coding/programming part).

We'll soon see who these A-level PC developers are, but if it works as advertised will possibly open a great amount of upcoming games to the Mac community (or at least those who have Merom/Conroe/Xeon chips in their new Macs).

I understand that that there's no upfront costs in Cider. But, there are costs involved in the licensing Cider. Those have to be accounted for when determining the breakeven point for a game. Really, the only cost savings associated with Cider is programming and code support costs. The other costs (licensing, distribution, marketing, other support) are still going to remain, as well as the additional costs of licensing Cider. That said, I think the costs savings would be very large because people are very expensive. I think the Cider technology coupled with Aspyr's new downloadable distribution system will be very nice for Aspyr's bottom-line. I think, ultimately, this technology can only be good for mac gamers.