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TransGaming Announces Cider


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#21 a2daj

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:34 AM

One that that will probably be affected is Mac OS integration of games.  Some games take advantage of Mac only technologies to add Mac specific features.  How will preference files be handled?  Will they once again require full read and write access to the folder containing the game executable (Yes, I know about WoW...)?  Will Cider handle all of that transparently writing files to appropriate user specific folders?
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#22 lenn

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:37 AM

I'll believe it when i see it. We've been dissappointed too many times by grandious promises.

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#23 bookman

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:45 AM

My initial reaction was that this would hurt Mac porting companies, but I think you folks may be right about the support issues. However, if that market share keeps climbing, we may see more developers take the Mac portion on themselves, for profit's sake.

I for one would love to go to Target, buy the latest PC game, and have it work on my Mac.

As for Aspyr, well, they are publishing a number of PC titles now. If this allows them to release hybrid discs that work on Mac, then we could be playing Dreamfall and Gothic II right now.
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#24 DaveyJJ

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:56 AM

Very interesting news. I'll be curious to see, like many others, how much "overhead" (if any) gets lost during the process. Even if it's, lets assume, 10-15%, the speed increases we'll see from Merom-powered MBP and Conroe powered desktops will more than handle it.

A very, very interesting technology and opportunity to sell more games (from a PC publishers perspective) will be something to watch. And no Windows license to buy or dual boot situation ... bring it on I say.

Could Apple incorporate similar technology in their OS I wonder? ;)

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#25 NAG

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 12:25 PM

This sounds good, but so have a lot of the other miracle game porting companies that turned out to be rather disappointing.
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#26 Mr.PreacherMan

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 01:22 PM

View PostMorrigan, on August 3rd 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

how is this different from, say WINE?

The one key difference between Cider and WINE (without the benefit of being really familiar with either, mind you) is that Cider is a self-contained solution. The developers use Cider and it is completely transparent to the Users. They just get an application and they run it without realizing that the windows application itself is running an extra process which is converting all those Windows APIs into OS X APIs.

With WINE, there's some of the same effort by the developers AND you have to have the WINE framework installed locally. You (or whomever set up your machine) have to have taken steps in order to use it and the conversion process is running on your system, rather than within the application.

Please feel free to speak up if I got anything wrong there. Just based upon a bit of speculation and light reading, rather than actual, in-depth understanding or experience.</disclaimer>

It really sounds like a cruel April Fool's joke, however. I'll reserve any judgement until we can see it in action.

#27 the Battle Cat

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 01:42 PM

It sounds like the only thing that could make this better news for Intel Mac gamers is if it were hard cider.  I think though that for PPC users it means an even quicker end to triple A titles for the PPC than Boot Camp presented.  I'm looking to the future though.  Eventually I'll have an Intel Mac tower, and I'll be suckin' 'em down like everybody else.
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#28 kingarthur_kom

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 02:13 PM

View Postlenn, on August 3rd 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

I'll believe it when i see it. We've been dissappointed too many times by grandious promises.

lenn

These are the same people who made Battlefield 1942 among others work on Linux. It is coming.

View Postbookman, on August 3rd 2006, 12:45 PM, said:

I for one would love to go to Target, buy the latest PC game, and have it work on my Mac.

I remember one of my local Targets used to have a Mac section.

#29 teflon

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 02:37 PM

seeing as Intel macs are still a small proportion of macs (ie. tBC hasnt got one yet) well see the PPC market stay open for quite some time.... well into 2007 by my guesses..

But for those games which wouldnt come to the mac without this solution, then I think its a fabulous boon.

so does anyone know. Would it be possible to implement Cider on PC games without the source code? and if so would it be possible for a community effort to create it in the form of a patch?
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#30 Eric5h5

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 04:21 PM

View PostBlackshawk, on August 3rd 2006, 11:52 AM, said:

What games run at 100 fps? Whenever I did game design I purposely crippled the engine to 60 fps. Anything slower was the user's fault. At 100 fps it would look like the game was moving in fast forward.

Er...what?  :blink:  Anyone working in game design in the last, say, 20 years ought to know that your game logic timing should update in terms relative to the last frame.  That way your game runs at the same pace whether it's going 10fps or 100fps.  LOTS of games run 100fps or more, or at least older ones on newer hardware.  You can get Quake 3 to run well over 400fps these days, and it certainly does not look like the game is moving in fast forward.  It's smoother at higher fps, not faster (though your monitor will limit how many frames you're actually seeing).  You still have to do this even if you cap your engine at 60fps or whatever, because you do not want frame rate variances to make your game slow down if the fps drops below 60 (and in what way is that the "user's fault"?).  Low fps should result in choppy gameplay, not slow gameplay.

View PostMorrigan, on August 3rd 2006, 12:40 PM, said:

how is this different from, say WINE?

It is WINE, or at least it uses a lot of WINE code.  Cider is based on Cedega.  Cedega is based on WINE.  [insert argument about GPL here and stand back....]  Therefore, Cider is not too good to be true.  WINE works, hence Cider will work.  I imagine that by implementing Cider at compile time rather than tacking it on afterward like WINE, they eliminate the compatibility issues that WINE has.  Therefore, it would not be possible to use Cider to "patch" older games; you need the source code or else you might as well just use WINE.  Or at least that's my understanding.  Note that there's still a bit of tweaking; they mention "hours to a few days."

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#31 calroth

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 04:57 PM

View PostEric5h5, on August 4th 2006, 08:21 AM, said:

It is WINE, or at least it uses a lot of WINE code.  Cider is based on Cedega.  Cedega is based on WINE.  [insert argument about GPL here and stand back....]
To nip this in the bud, Cedega was forked from WINE when it was under the BSD license, before WINE converted to LGPL.

#32 Eric5h5

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:11 PM

View Postcalroth, on August 3rd 2006, 06:57 PM, said:

To nip this in the bud, Cedega was forked from WINE when it was under the BSD license, before WINE converted to LGPL.

OK, cool--thanks for that info.

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#33 calroth

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:17 PM

Some analysis here, for those of us who like posts to be (more) informed. This is all my own opinion and isn't official, although it may look it. It ain't.

Who is this TransGaming company?

TransGaming is a company that makes games from one platform work on another.

Their main product is Cedega, a Windows emulation layer for Linux. It allows you to play certain Windows games on Linux - unauthorised and unsupported by the original publishers. The speed ranges from faster than Windows to a fraction of the speed; the compatibility ranges from pristine, to graphical glitches, to major game problems.

If I recall right, they also have solutions to help developers make "authorised" ports to Linux/x86 and Mac OS X/PPC. Cider is a porting tool for Mac OS X/Intel.

What will the performance of Cider games be like?

Probably around the same as Cedega - see above. If they work with the publishers rather than against them, chances of performance within a few % of the Windows version are good.

Can I run (Half-Life 2; Battlefield 2; random Windows game) now?

No, because whilst Cedega allowed you to "unofficially" play many Windows games under Linux, they're not releasing an equivalent under Mac OS X. Cider appears to be a porting SDK only.

They could release a Cedega-equivalent for Mac OS X that allows you to run Half-Life 2 etc. It's technically possible. But I rate that as unlikely - see the next point for why.

Will game publishers actually use it? Go on, be an amateur business analyst, we know you want to.

From a technical point of view, it's great.

The problem with TransGaming is that a lot of publishers, especially the bigger ones, don't like them due to their "unauthorised" status making games work in Linux. Attitudes range from hostility to ambivalence. Now, this is the reason why there's no Cedega-equivalent for Mac OS X. They're trying to change their image from a company that goes behind publisher's backs to one that works with them.

Another problem is, Microsoft doesn't much like TransGaming (who'd have thought?) and Microsoft has a big influence over game publishers.

How does this affect Aspyr, MacSoft, etc.?

From a technical point of view, Cider is a lot nicer. But from a technical point of view, Aspyr and the others have porting down to a fine art.

The problem, as always, is probably in the licensing and business side. Companies may (and I stress may) be more willing to work with Aspyr because they trust them more. Or they may bite the bullet and go TransGaming. Certainly, the market of Windows game publishers is so big that both Aspyr and TransGaming could get dozens of games each and still not be directly competing with each other for the same games.

So, when do I start to see Mac versions of all my favourite Windows games?

I believe that Cider won't have much of an effect on ports or the market at all. I think that nothing will change: Aspyr will continue to bring a handful of games to the Mac, TransGaming technology will be in a few games from the smaller houses, the vast majority of game releases will continue to be Windows-only, and many Mac users will dual-boot for or not play those games.

#34 Atticus

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:35 PM

Yet Another Reason I can't wait to see if Steve announces Power Macs next week.

Anyone wanna buy a dual 2.0Gz G5?  :D

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#35 emailthatguy

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:50 PM

i remember when half life 2 came out valve specifically mentioned how they had been working with them to get things working in cedega rather than trying to port to linux themselves.  this included getting steam to fully work in linux.

valve games on the horizon possibly?  /drool damn i hope so

#36 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:57 PM

View Posta2daj, on August 3rd 2006, 11:34 AM, said:

One that that will probably be affected is Mac OS integration of games.  Some games take advantage of Mac only technologies to add Mac specific features.  How will preference files be handled?  Will they once again require full read and write access to the folder containing the game executable (Yes, I know about WoW...)?  Will Cider handle all of that transparently writing files to appropriate user specific folders?

That would really depend on the game but games have been coming out for Windows that use the user account folder for things like preferences and savegames instead of the games folder. Using the individuals user account folder for things like that isn't exactly a Mac specific feature but Windows hasn't always done (or even had user accounts in general) it so not all games support it especially older games. But I'd be suprised that the new games that come out targetting XP and above and Cider wouldn't be made with user accounts in mind.



I am interested in finding out who the first companies they have made agreements with and what titles they say are coming out in the next few months.
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Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

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#37 bobbob

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:29 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on August 3rd 2006, 04:57 PM, said:

That would really depend on the game

Pssst... just because the games use a particular path doesn't mean Wine does.

#38 MacManX

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:30 PM

View Postbobbob, on August 4th 2006, 03:38 AM, said:

Freescale/Motorolla's CodeWarrior, the one that ditched the Mac rather than continue development for X86?

No, CodeWeavers.

#39 Hobeaux

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:34 PM

View PostBlackshawk, on August 3rd 2006, 08:52 AM, said:

What games run at 100 fps? Whenever I did game design I purposely crippled the engine to 60 fps. Anything slower was the user's fault. At 100 fps it would look like the game was moving in fast forward.

Having a higher frame rate doesn't mean that items in the game move faster, it means that the screen is redrawn more times per second, reducing flicker and increasing image accuracy. A low framerate is often referred to as a "slideshow" as you can see the noticeable frame rate.
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#40 Eric5h5

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:39 PM

View Postcalroth, on August 3rd 2006, 07:17 PM, said:

Some analysis here

That all sounds reasonable to me.  It's one thing for Cider to technically work like they claim (I expect that it probably does), and another thing to actually get companies to use it.  You'd think "Hey, if they can sell an additional X thousand copies of their game for hardly any effort, who wouldn't?" but it's never that simple....

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