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Will there ever be another good combat flight sim for Mac?


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#1 jtgolfer

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 10:39 PM

I'm tired of waiting.

What's the best server-based flight sim for Mac?

Thanks.

#2 Huntn

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 06:01 AM

Have you seen this thread?

When you say server do you mean multiplayer or MMO type?

#3 Fourth Horseman

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 02:12 PM

Too bad we can't get one of the Mac publishers to work with Lead Pursuit on an OS X port of Falcon 4: Allied Force.
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#4 Batcat

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 05:15 AM

View PostFourth Horseman, on July 22nd 2006, 03:12 PM, said:

Too bad we can't get one of the Mac publishers to work with Lead Pursuit on an OS X port of Falcon 4: Allied Force.
You mean this Falcon 4: Allied Force?

If Graphsim saw a Mac/OSX market, they'd publish it for the Mac themselves.

#5 Fourth Horseman

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 11:43 PM

View PostBatcat, on July 24th 2006, 05:15 AM, said:

You mean this Falcon 4: Allied Force?

If Graphsim saw a Mac/OSX market, they'd publish it for the Mac themselves.

Yeah, that's the one. Honestly, I'm surprised it got published for the PC. Hard core study sims appeal to such a small market.
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#6 Rank Xerox

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 06:47 PM

View Postjtgolfer, on July 21st 2006, 09:39 PM, said:

I'm tired of waiting.

What's the best server-based flight sim for Mac?

Thanks.

If you are into WWII is WWII Online: Battleground Europe the best if you ask me.

WWIIOL is a 100% PvP MMOG-FPS. No scripted missions, no Bots or NPC. Every mission is posted by other players. One of the unique features with this game is that it is not a Flight-sim, nor a tank-sim or a infantry-sim. It is everything at the same time. It even has a naval aspect (still with only three types of vessels though).

All branches has to cooperate to be successful. Infantry can't gain ground without tank and air support. Tanks need airsupport as well to fend off enemy aircraft. And aircrafts can't win anything unless they have troops on the ground, as in real life. And when the fight is along or near the coast is naval assistance crucial. Especially if you want to invade England or defend England from an invasion.

Just one big (proberbly the biggest) game world. No levels, no grinding, just one gigantic continuous map. Western Europe in scale 1:2 with some 500 villages, towns and major cities in the same world. The map is unbelievable big, you can fly from England to Germany. It will take you an hour or two but it is just one continuous flight. But what is really keen is to fly down to the Alps which is a very impressive sight. Download the game for free and fly down there in off-line mode.

All vehicles is historical accurate. And that isn't only the skin as in BF1942 or CoD that looks like the historical vehicles. WWIIOL is built with a physical damage model where it makes a different where you hit your target and with what. No hit-point system. Each round (bullet or grenade) is a physical piece of polygons that either penetrates the target or bounces off.

If you look closer to aircrafts for instance, all aircrafts has their historical armament. A 20mm cannon on one aircraft is not the same as another 20mm cannon on another aircraft. These cannons had very different prestanda historically as well as in WWIIOL.

#7 WSTE_M

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 07:56 AM

IMHO: If you just want to fly (not drive vehicles etc.) Targetware has WWII online beat.
Better realism, better control, and superb planes.

W
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#8 DaveyJJ

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 04:58 AM

Does TargetWare still require a joystick though?

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#9 WSTE_M

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 05:29 AM

You want to fly, without. a. joystick. ??? :wacko:  :rolleyes:  :blink:  :crazy:

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#10 Huntn

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 05:56 AM

View PostDaveyJJ, on July 31st 2006, 05:58 AM, said:

Does TargetWare still require a joystick though?

Any self respecting flight sim does. :)

#11 Rank Xerox

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 01:56 PM

View PostWSTE_M, on July 30th 2006, 06:56 AM, said:

IMHO: If you just want to fly (not drive vehicles etc.) Targetware has WWII online beat.
Better realism, better control, and superb planes.

W

I don't know much about Targetware. But it seems to me to be a "player-hosted" game. The specs seems pretty low. So how many players can be log on to the same server? More then 32, or even more then 64?

What do you mean with better realis? The aircrafts in WWIIOL is tested in airtunnels. Only IL2 do that too as far as I understand.

Judging from the FAQ is Targetware built on a Hitpoint-system. Or what do the developers mean when a wing is damaged between 15%-65% if it isn't a hitpoint system. If so is realism outruled in my book.

In WWIIOL do you play with thousands of other players. And as I said above it's 100% PvP so you don't have to fight against any AI pilots. That also means that all targets on ground is other players, no AI or Bots that you have in Targetware.

And your buddies on the ground will call out the targets for you, just as in real life. Tankers just hate when the enemy has air superiority. But you should also be aware of that the enemy can have set up deadly AA batteries which just love to shot down pilots that fly too close to the deck.

In WWIIOL can you also fly trooptransports that carry paratroopers or ordinary infantry that you need to land to embark.

Or can you be part of a small or big group of strategical bomber runs against the enemies industrial facilities at their rear (On Southeast England, or North France (around Abbeville) or in Southwest Germany (Köln/Düsseldorf area).

The bigger bomberruns has between 50-70 bombers plus 20-30 fighters as escort. The flight to the target is often an hour or so, and you never know when the enemy will jump you or if you will get to the target. Well at target will you face the heavy FlaK (these is AI though). The heavy flak has a max reach of 6000 meter why you need to do the inflight at high altitude, or you will die for sure. It is commen that the "bomber-virgins" gets so impressed about the Flak that they actually forgets to drop the bombs. Hence the pilot needs to turn back so his crew-mate can drop the bombs.

And well at the target is there another problem. The enemies has of course fighterpilots that is guarding the factories against people like you. That is at least realism in my book.

Just to have dogfighting can be fun. Especially against other players. But to what purpose? If your victory in the air makes no difference for the guys that fights on the ground as infantry and tankers et al is there no big deal, really. At least not to me. And it is definitely not a realistic scenario in my book.

#12 Huntn

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:20 AM

View PostRank Xerox, on July 31st 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

What do you mean with better realis? The aircrafts in WWIIOL is tested in airtunnels. Only IL2 do that too as far as I understand.

When talking flight sims, realism is relative. :) I'm not trying to start an argument about your statement, but do you have a source of info? If there is indeed a virtual wind tunnel for testing virtual aircraft, I'm interested in hearing about it. My understanding is that many/most entertainment flight sims use charts of data to determine how a plane should act. For a realistic sim, those charts would be based on the real aircraft. The weakest aspect of charts is that the aircraft is only going to do what the charts say. In cases of unstable flight like stalls and spins flight performance is not usually realistically represented.

One exception that I know about is X-Plane where the program actually reads the drag/lift coefficients of different parts of the airframe to determine performance although I won't claim it does a better job of simulating unstable flight.

#13 Syzygy

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:24 AM

View PostHuntn, on August 1st 2006, 05:20 AM, said:

One exception that I know about is X-Plane where the program actually reads the drag/lift coefficients of different parts of the airframe to determine performance although I won't claim it does a better job of simulating unstable flight.

That doesn't necessarily make X-Plane more realistic: You said earlier the realism is only is good as the lookup tables for other sims, and that's true.  For X-Plane the realism is only as good as the airfoil modelling and the data used to shape the airfoil.

It *does* give a load off of airplane designers though.  Instead of having to dig up tons of chars of aircraft performance at all manner of stable and unstable conditions, they just find a handful of data on the airfoils and the aircraft's shape, and the game handles it from there.

Basically, it puts more reliance on Austin's ability to correctly model airfoils and atmosphere, and less reliance on the aircraft designer's ability to dig up tons of lookup tables.
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#14 Huntn

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 11:57 AM

View PostSyzygy, on August 1st 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

That doesn't necessarily make X-Plane more realistic: You said earlier the realism is only is good as the lookup tables for other sims, and that's true.  For X-Plane the realism is only as good as the airfoil modelling and the data used to shape the airfoil.

It *does* give a load off of airplane designers though.  Instead of having to dig up tons of chars of aircraft performance at all manner of stable and unstable conditions, they just find a handful of data on the airfoils and the aircraft's shape, and the game handles it from there.

Basically, it puts more reliance on Austin's ability to correctly model airfoils and atmosphere, and less reliance on the aircraft designer's ability to dig up tons of lookup tables.

Overall I agree with what your saying. Since X-Plane allows users to create whatever aircraft shape they want, I'd say the realism in this case relies on Austin's ability to program a realistic reaction of an atmosphere against those airfoils. And because thousands of airframes have been designed, I think this method of interaction is outstanding.

#15 Rank Xerox

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:58 PM

View PostHuntn, on August 1st 2006, 05:20 AM, said:

When talking flight sims, realism is relative. :) I'm not trying to start an argument about your statement, but do you have a source of info? If there is indeed a virtual wind tunnel for testing virtual aircraft, I'm interested in hearing about it. My understanding is that many/most entertainment flight sims use charts of data to determine how a plane should act. For a realistic sim, those charts would be based on the real aircraft. The weakest aspect of charts is that the aircraft is only going to do what the charts say. In cases of unstable flight like stalls and spins flight performance is not usually realistically represented.

One exception that I know about is X-Plane where the program actually reads the drag/lift coefficients of different parts of the airframe to determine performance although I won't claim it does a better job of simulating unstable flight.

The old forum seems to be down why I can't post a link (doubt non-subscribers could access it though). But I can post the ReadMe file for version 1.18 (December 2004) where the wind tunnel is meantion.

That said, the developers is working on version 1.24 (running as an open beta for subscribers). Lost of new exiting features. For pilots is there two interesting features that should be meantion.

First off: WEATHER!
Kind of cool for a persistant game. Think outside the singlemission games where you play on a limited area of 2x2 km or smaller. The modelled game world is over 240x120 km.

Weather-gif from the beta
Posted Image


Second: HULKS!
Smoking hulks from abandoned/blown up tank-hulks will be added under v1.24 too. The Hulks that will stay on the battlefield for a longer time (10-20 minutes?) together with hundreds of other objects like players, houses, trees.

What have hulks anything with the airwar? some might ask. I say it will have a major impact for the pilots when they will try to find targets on the ground. A smoking hulk could be a good beacon to find a secondary target, or on a battlefield croweded with hulks could it be very difficult to find a target.


Quote

As of the 1.18 release the P-38, Fw190 and Spit IX were not flight model complete. The models you can fly offline have not had final wind tunnel tests and the resulting edits done and therefore do not represent accurate performance or handling profiles.

They are all receiving final edits now on performance and handling to bring them into line with their historical counterparts, and will be finalized and available for the live map by the time they are RDP'ed. Expect a small patch in the next few days that will deliver the finalized flight models.

=====================
World War Two Online
=====================
Version 1.18.0.255 (12-21-2004)

Vehicles:
-Added Fw190 A/4 (Offline only ready for RDP)
-Added Lockheed 322-15/P-38F (Offline only ready for RDP)
-Added Spitfire Mk IX (Offline only ready for RDP)
-Added Ju52 3m
-Added auto pilot to planes by pressing the <A> key, the plane must be in level flight to activate and will deactivate if the flight profile cannot be maintained
-Added ability to deploy as mobile spawn point for infantry to trucks by pressing <D>
-Added mobile spawning deploy to Bedford OY
-Added mobile spawning deploy to Laffly S20
-Added mobile spawning deploy to SdKfz 251c
-Added mobile spawning deploy to Opel Blitz
-Updated sounds for 251c
-Updated sounds for Sdkfz7
-Updated sounds for P38t
-Updated sounds for PzIV D and G
-Fixed fuel tanks on PzIVG
-Fixed LOD issue on Sherman
-Fixed mirrored flags on Sherman
-Fixed crew clipping views on Sherman
-Fixed a couple of state issues with the Sherman
-Fixed driver/gunner damage models not deploying
-Fixed a bug with towing
-Fixed bug causing some ground vehicles to have blackouts
-Fixed Stug3g art issue

Ju52 3m:
-Added Axis and Allied placeholder variants
-- Allied Variants will be replaced with new aircraft in an upcoming release
-Added binocular view to copilot ('.' key)
-Pilot has ability to open cabin door and turn jump light from red to green ('o' key)
-Infantry may join the plane and exit by using the ('j' key)
-Added code to prevent infantry exiting plane in flight and falling to their death
-It can be noisy back there, use ".y" (short for .yell) to area chat to your fellow passengers

Autopilot:
-Hitting 'a' in an aircraft will attempt to engage the autopilot
-Must be straight and level at constant speed to engage autopilot
-Autopilot will attempt to hold heading and altitude within some limits
-Autopilot will disengage if the envelope is broached for instance, you can adjust your speed but too great an adjustment will cause autopilot to disengage

Infantry:
-Added several new contextual death animations
-Fixed a bug where weapons could be reloaded while cycling
-Disabled the scream sound for troopers falling
-Added paratroop deployments
-Added French Paratroops
-Added British Paratroops
-Added German Paratroops
-Added the "JUMP" combat emote <ctrl + 6> though paratroopers should wait for the green light before jumping as the emote may not be heard by everyone in the plane
-Changed Commander avatar loadouts to reflect SMG loadouts

Paratroopers:
-Paratroopers are deployed units and can be moved as all deployed units
-Paratroopers have the following load out
--SMG
--Pistol
--Grenades
--Smoke grenades
--combat knife
--Satchel charge
--Ammo can
--Binoculars
-Paratroopers spawn with a loaded parachute and have increased stamina costs
-Paratroopers lose their chute after jumping from a transport plane and landing
-Paratroopers are highly trained and have better ATP (stamina) once they are free of their chutes
-Paratroopers can rotate during descent using the <Q> and <E> keys
-Paratroops cannot move, fire or reload during descent
-Paratroops only have one chute deploy per spawn
-Paratroops will die if they drop from less than 200m, watch for the pilots signal before jumping
-The minimum safe jump height for paratroopers is 200m
-Merry Xmas and Happy New Year from all at Cornered Rat Software :)

Jump procedure:
-Paratroopers should wait for the green light from the pilot before jumping
-Once this green light is lit, the cabin door will open
-Paratroopers should then fire off the "JUMP" emote <ctrl+6> and jump <J>

Mobile Spawning:
-Infantry movers can now become the mobile spawn point for their mission by pressing the <d> key
-Infantry can now deploy to a mobile spawn point on their mission
-Added a mobile spawn available icon to the mission select screen
-Added a new Mobile Spawn launch button to the mission briefing room
-Bridges are not a valid target for a mobile spawn
-Vehicles will not move once deployed
-If the vehicle is deployed, "Vehicle Deployed" appears with the other readouts on upper left screen
-Once a vehicle is deployed, there can be no undeploy for 60 seconds
-Cannot redeploy a vehicle for 60 seconds after undeploying


Infantry
-select a mission with a green truck icon
-when spawning select mobile spawn launch button if it is available

Defensive Mobile Spawning Rules for Deploying the Truck:
-The mission target and origin are (or are in) the same Choke Point (town) or the target is an open enemy FB inbound to the origin CP
-You must own the facility from which the mission originates
-You must be within 1300m of the target facility
-You must be 300m or more away from *any* enemy facility
-Each mission can only have one deployed mobile spawn at a time

Offensive Mobile Spawning Rules for Deploying the Truck:
-In addition to the rules above, these rules must be met when the target CP and origin CP are not the same
-Mission target Choke Point is enemy owned, controlled or both
-There must be a depot-to-depot link between the origin and target CP
-The enemy does not have an open firebase on the link

Mobile Spawn Deployment with Trucks:
-Area Attack: Must be within 1300m of a facility in the target CP
-Point Attack: Must be within 1300m of your target facility
-Must be 300m or more away from *any* enemy held facility

Despawn Timer:
-Added despawn timer to disallow players from escaping a killing shot
-Dead infantry are immune to the despawn timer
-Multi crew joiners are immune to the despawn timer

Terrain:
-Updated airport barracks to new model to stop spawning in roof
-Added smoke emitters to firebases
-Added smoke emitters to depot army base garages
-Added smoke emitters to new churches
-Added smoke emitters to new cloisters
-Added smoke emitters to new office (flag) buildings
-Added new city building (long with courtyard)
-Added statistical HE model to all AA AI

Effects:
-Added debris smoke
-Debris smoke fades over time as building is rebuilt

Chat:
-Added ".r" as a "command" to chat
-Typing ".r" followed by a space auto fills the chat buffer with ".r <handle>" where <handle> is the chat handle of the last person (not yourself) to send you a .m message
-/r now works like .r

Squads:
-Host now sends notice of squad mates tuning in to the squad channel
--You only see logins for your current side

Global:
-Adjusted sound volume on AA AI -Updated translations for German and Spanish
-Fixed problem that could cause vehicle reservations to be unexpectedly lost
-Added builders icon
-Added paratrooper deployment icon
-Updated translations
-Added code to reduce "#####" messages
-If a string in a foreign language is not found, it will attempt to find it with the English language

Special thanks to Keyler and Arggh for life-saving pizza while we were in the deepest, darkest point of 1.18 development.

Happy Holidays to all.
_________________
Dana V. Baldwin
"Gophur"
Producer
WWIIOL


#16 Frost

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 04:09 PM

View PostBatcat, on July 24th 2006, 06:15 AM, said:

You mean this Falcon 4: Allied Force?

If Graphsim saw a Mac/OSX market, they'd publish it for the Mac themselves.
It's too bad one man doesn't constitute a market. :glare:
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#17 WSTE_M

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:28 PM

View PostFrost, on August 17th 2006, 12:09 AM, said:

It's too bad one man doesn't constitute a market. :glare:

The question is: Would you buy it if GRAPHSIM made it ?
Any ohter company making the port, the marked would be two sales, but with graphsim... no no

W
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#18 Gamecuber

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 05:15 AM

Never mind a good combat flight sim, what about a good space combat flight sim for Mac ?  Ok, there's Freespace 2 but what about something new, something in the lines of the Wing Commander or Star Wars (X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter, X-Wing Alliance) games a couple of years ago ?

#19 Janichsan

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 06:32 AM

X2 plays very much like Wing Commander - though it's not a pure space combat flight sim... and runs like crap on Intel Macs.

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#20 Flojomojo

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:44 PM

It seems that combat flight sims, like adventure games have simply gone out of fashion. The last big one was Freespace 2, over five years ago, and everyone says the sales were terrible.

It's a shame, because these are my favorite two genres. These days, WW2 and gory FPS games are dominating the market. Bleah. No wonder I'm seeking out old hardware to run old games.

We need a program like SCUMM VM to run the old LucasArts flight sims!