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Glenda Adams Discusses Mac Gaming


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#81 nagromme

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 11:46 AM

View PostMaestro, on June 6th 2006, 04:16 PM, said:

Is your time that precious, or are you totally disorganized? Get a CD folder, it is a lot more convient to store the discs.
It's wonderful if you don't mind putting in a disc every time you play a game, and I won't flame you for it.

But don't assume everyone is the same. But as a LAPTOP user I DO care about the following:

* Breaking discs in my luggage

* Carrying MORE luggage (my laptop bag has too much junk I need already) which you seem to suggest

* Being unable to carry JUST my computer--if I want to play games. Except for games, there are times when all I need is a power supply in my pocket. Pretty nice.

* Getting up and going to other rooms of the house to fetch CDs instead of just being able to fire up a quick game any time. Half of the joy of owning a laptop is the freedom to work in any room. Getting up to go to a cupboard in another part of the house is not ideal. (And if you think "it's only time," then why are there keyboard shortcuts or any other time-saving user-friendly software features? User-friendliness does matter, and needing multiple CDs is certainly in that category.)

* The disc that sits in the drive gets in the way of my other use of the drive, AND it spins up sometimes slowing things down

* Wear and tear from constantly shuffling and inserting (and dropping) different game discs

* Having to think about which games I might want to play and then ending up wanting to play one I didn't bring

Is any one of those problems a big deal? No. Do they all TOGETHER add up to a disincentive to buy? Yes. Thus I proposed certain compromises that would still be disc-based, because I accept that piracy cannot be ignored.

Desktop gamers need not care about all (only some) of the above. But laptops are a fast growing market--not to mention they make LAN play with friends a whole lot easier on the spur of the moment :)

#82 Eric5h5

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:37 AM

View PostOverLoad, on June 7th 2006, 01:44 AM, said:

All I'm saying is suit your language to the complaint. Having to put a disk in to play a game is an inconvenience, not a major life crisis.

That wasn't what you were saying, but OK, I'll go along with this.  :)  Of course, my language always did suit the complaint.  I'm not sure where "major life crisis" ever entered into this.

Quote

I have plenty of games (I can see about a dozen boxes from where I'm sitting, all but two of which require the insertion of a disk before play, and one of the two used to have the same requirement until a recent patch); and adopting a patronizing tone isn't likely to make me see things your way.

I'm sorry you thought my tone was patronizing.  However, a dozen isn't very many.  At least 90% of mine don't require the insertion of a disk, and those that do definitely get less play, and worse (from a game publisher's standpoint), a greater resistance to buying.  There are a couple of recent games I had every intention of getting by now, but I keep putting it off because of this very issue.

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I'm not telling anyone to shut up.

Alas, you were....

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All I'm saying is that exaggerated complaints aren't likely to get anything done; in fact they can be extremely counterproductive, as they tend to get the complaint ignored along with the complainer.

Well, speaking of hyperbole...I'm not sure where me saying, quote, "it's a pain", endquote, gets turned into an "exaggerated complaint."  As far as the "How about I continue to rail against injustice in the (Mac gaming) world?" comment goes, surely a rational person following the context of this discussion would realize that was a tongue-in-cheek comment?  How many people didn't realize that?  Show of hands, please...OK, one person.  ;)  Don't make me overuse emoticons! :angry: :glare:  You wouldn't like me when I'm forced to overuse emoticons! :wacko:

View PostMaestro, on June 7th 2006, 09:51 AM, said:

That is illegal, where does it say you can do that in the manual? Most games specifically say "insert CD/DVD in optical drive, then run the application". You are taking it for granted, that you can make a disk image and trick the game into thinking the actual media is in the computer. If the publisher wanted you to do that, they would. I guess you are just like the people that pirate.

What the...  Geeze.  In no way is that illegal; I haven't any idea where that came from.  At the grave risk of giving the impression that I'm trying to engage in one-upmanship, I'll just say that there are probably very few individuals here who've spent more on Mac games than myself (a mere 50, bobbob?  Feh!  That's nothing!  ...oops.  Sorry!).

Yet I certainly don't have any issues with making disk images for those games that it works with (sadly, none of the recent Aspyr games).  Many, mostly older, games don't even require a disk image.  If that makes me a pirate, then hey, that's fantastic--we certainly need more pirates who spend somewhere in the US$ mid-4 digit range on games.

I'd be very curious as to which country has laws where that sort of thing is actually illegal.  "But is says in the manual..." doesn't count as an actual law, you know.  If it said in the manual that I have to wear a green bow-tie and bowler hat while playing the game, and I fail to be suitably attired, I'm not actually breaking any laws.  It also says in the manual that you can't sell your game, yet there's a "Buy & Sell" forum trading in used games right here on the (commendably anti-pirate) IMG forums.

--Eric

#83 OverLoad

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 02:56 AM

View PostEric5h5, on June 8th 2006, 03:37 PM, said:

View PostOverLoad, on June 7th 2006, 02:44 PM, said:

All I'm saying is suit your language to the complaint. Having to put a disk in to play a game is an inconvenience, not a major life crisis.
That wasn't what you were saying, but OK, I'll go along with this.  :)  Of course, my language always did suit the complaint.  I'm not sure where "major life crisis" ever entered into this.
I'm sorry, I think when I wrote this I was actually thinking of bobbob's blow-by-blow description of the horrors of having to put a disk in the drive and wait for it to spin up. :rolleyes:

View PostEric5h5, on June 8th 2006, 03:37 PM, said:

View PostOverLoad, on June 7th 2006, 02:44 PM, said:

I have plenty of games (I can see about a dozen boxes from where I'm sitting, all but two of which require the insertion of a disk before play, and one of the two used to have the same requirement until a recent patch); and adopting a patronizing tone isn't likely to make me see things your way.
I'm sorry you thought my tone was patronizing.  However, a dozen isn't very many.  At least 90% of mine don't require the insertion of a disk, and those that do definitely get less play, and worse (from a game publisher's standpoint), a greater resistance to buying. There are a couple of recent games I had every intention of getting by now, but I keep putting it off because of this very issue.
Hold on a sec. I didn't give you the total number of games that I own; I just told you that I could see a dozen boxes from where I was sitting. That is only a portion of the number of games I own, and a very small fraction of the games I've ever owned (because I tend to sell the games I buy very quickly, rather than hang on to them).

Even this is all beside the point. Let's say you really do own five times as many games as I've owned it my entire life. What of it? To say, "I own more games than you, so I know better than you whether it's pain to put in a disk!" is a kindergarten argument. It's what's known in as "arguing from authority," which is frowned upon as a fallacy in a philosophical discussion (which is what we're having). It's beneath us, so let's not go there.

View PostEric5h5, on June 8th 2006, 03:37 PM, said:

View PostOverLoad, on June 7th 2006, 02:44 PM, said:

I'm not telling anyone to shut up.
Alas, you were....
No, I wasn't. If you'll look back at the statement from me that started this whole war, you'll find it was this:

Quote

... but frankly I think people who complain about having to put a disk in to play a game need to re-evaluate their priorities.
Now I suppose that might be interpreted as an invitation to shut up, but what it really says is this: "If you want to complain about something like this, I'm not going to respect you for it." I consider it a waste of time, effort, and the goodwill of others to complain about (what I perceive as) such a small thing, especially when complaining's not likely to have any effect. (Don't believe me? Look at the effect I've had by complaining about y'all complaining. You're not about to do anything differently, and you don't even have your livelihood riding on your complaints!)

View PostEric5h5, on June 8th 2006, 03:37 PM, said:

I'm not sure where me saying, quote, "it's a pain", endquote, gets turned into an "exaggerated complaint."  As far as the "How about I continue to rail against injustice in the (Mac gaming) world?" comment goes, surely a rational person following the context of this discussion would realize that was a tongue-in-cheek comment?
Surely a rational person would recognize "major life crisis" as an example of ironic hyperbole? ;)

View PostEric5h5, on June 8th 2006, 03:37 PM, said:

You wouldn't like me when I'm forced to overuse emoticons! :wacko:
I'll see you your overused emoticons :moreangry: and raise you some luridly colored text!

Okay, now that we've established neither of us is entirely rational, let me wrap this up, 'cause I'm getting tired of the going back and forth on this subject to no useful end, and I get the feeling we've both been tripping over each others' ironic hyperbole, which can lead to stubbed metaphors and twisted figurative somethingorothers.

You think having to put a disk in a computer to play a game is a pain, and intend to keep on complaining about it on the principle that the squeaky wheel, if it squeaks long and loud enough, will eventually get the oil. What do I know? You may be right.

I think having to put a disk in a computer is a bother, hardly worth mentioning unless some sort of positive suggestion can be made; I also get extremely irritated when I hear wheels squeaking within earshot, and being a crotchety old SOB I tend to share the irritation.

I think we're just going to have to draw a line in the sand, live and let live, shake hands and let things go at that. Deal?

#84 iRolley

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:48 AM

make love not war.

Today a man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we’re an imagination of ourselves. Here’s Tom with the weather.


#85 Eric5h5

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 01:33 PM

View PostOverLoad, on June 8th 2006, 04:56 AM, said:

I think we're just going to have to draw a line in the sand, live and let live, shake hands and let things go at that. Deal?

No.  You will agree that I am right about everything, or I will first torture you with the Comfy Chair, and then I will utterly annihilate you.  Yes, yes, that's a much better deal!  For me anyway!

--Eric

#86 OverLoad

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:46 PM

View PostEric5h5, on June 9th 2006, 04:33 AM, said:

No.  You will agree that I am right about everything, or I will first torture you with the Comfy Chair, and then I will utterly annihilate you.  Yes, yes, that's a much better deal!  For me anyway!
Right about everything? Hah! But ... please ... not the comfy chair! ... Take away all my games and replace them with copies of MoO3 ... anything but the comfy chair! ... Ah! ... Arghhhh! .... Could we just ... argh! ... could we just skip straight to the utter annihilation, please? ....

View PostiRolley, on June 8th 2006, 09:48 PM, said:

Today a man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we’re an imagination of ourselves. Here’s Tom with the weather.
Dammit, I told that reporter it was off the record!

#87 Frost

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:51 PM

View PostOverLoad, on June 8th 2006, 08:46 PM, said:

Right about everything? Hah! But ... please ... not the comfy chair! ... Take away all my games and replace them with copies of MoO3 ... anything but the comfy chair! ... Ah! ... Arghhhh! .... Could we just ... argh! ... could we just skip straight to the utter annihilation, please? ....
How dare you refuse the Comfy Chair, blasphemer! You will now be prodded with the SOFT CUSHIONS!
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When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#88 Eric5h5

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 08:52 PM

View PostOverLoad, on June 8th 2006, 09:46 PM, said:

Take away all my games and replace them with copies of MoO3

Well, golly, I may be an evil tyant, but I'm not, like, THAT mean!

--Eric

#89 Batcat

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 03:07 AM

View PostFrost, on June 8th 2006, 08:51 PM, said:

How dare you refuse the Comfy Chair, blasphemer! You will now be prodded with the SOFT CUSHIONS!
The Soft Cushions precede the Comfy Chair, emo girly man.

And make sure all the stuffing is up on end, and give the rack a turn for me. ;)

#90 the Battle Cat

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 08:31 AM

OK, argument resolved politely like gentlemen, but before this thread arc starts to turn into the giant beach ball endlessly lofted around at a rock concert, let's get back on topic now with "Glenda Adams Discusses Mac Gaming" please.
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#91 OverLoad

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 09:05 AM

Ni! :w00t: ... Oh, er, okay. Right. Ahem.

I have to say this article was a bit of an eye-opener. I've always suspected Mac porting houses like Aspyr weren't operating on the fattest of profit margins, but I'd never guessed how slim. Razor thin! You really gotta love what you're doing to run a business under those conditions.

At the same time, I've realized how little I know about the business end of this industry. The technical end of game porting generally gets a fair bit of attention, but we don't hear much about the business aspect. How does a game get ported to the Mac? Oh, I've got a vague idea: a porting firm picks a PC title that has been selling well (or maybe a soon-to-be-released title that promises to sell well) and approaches the publisher to pitch a deal for a Mac version. But that's only guesswork based on the little information that gets released. How do they pick the titles? How do the licensing fees work? What pesky contractual terms need to be negotiated? And so on.

I wonder if we could get some more info about this stuff. I realize there are NDAs in place that will prevent the discussion of actual existing contracts, but perhaps a theoretical discussion of the process in general terms would be possible? I, for one, would find it very interesting.

#92 electricdawn

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 03:28 AM

View Postflargh, on June 6th 2006, 01:36 PM, said:

Yeah, but it's not all about you, electricdawn.

Both games were out months before the Intel machines began shipping, and there's an installed user base of millions of systems that can play them.

It's not about me, but about all the loyal(!) customers that have bought(!!) the game and bought a new Intel machine as well. Are you telling me that all of these customers can just go to hell, because we're the minority right now? Thank you for making this so clear. If you would sell games, I would probably stop buying from you. Obviously you don't value your customers very much.

Is it so hard to produce an Intel patch, or listen(!) to your customers to get rid of copy-protection-schemes and being forced to put CDs in a drive?

Well, I guess, you don't want any customers after all...Since you don't trust them in the first place...

Sorry for the rant, I just hate it when customers have to swallow one bigger toad after the other. Don't you guys learn from history? Copy protection schemes were big in the eighties for professional software, but they ALWAYS(!) got circumvented. This was an arms race until the publishers finally realized it just wasn't worth it (losing customers and development time). A lot of professional software nowadays is not copy protected. Did they go belly-up? No, they didn't. In fact they make more money now than they ever did back then.

Why all in a sudden the same thing for music CDs and game CDs? I don't understand it.

My point is clear, if companies won't listen to my concerns I will stop buying from them. My wallet DOES count. Copy protection only hurts paying customers and the publisher itself in the end. Pirates don't care, they break the scheme, which is kind of a sport for them and put the stuff up on the P2P distribution net for everyone to download.

Who gets to win in the end? Right, only the people who wouldn't have bought the game/music cd/movie DVD in the first place.

But obviously it will take a few companies to go belly up before someone realizes that this wasn't probably a good idea to start with...

v/r, E.

#93 iRolley

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 07:51 AM

View Postelectricdawn, on June 10th 2006, 03:28 AM, said:

Who gets to win in the end? Right, only the people who wouldn't have bought the game/music cd/movie DVD in the first place.

No. When there are no more game release on macs and so no more new game to break, I am not sure the pirates will be winner. Nor will the people who bought games. This mentality is a greedy one and short sighted. Consume all possible resources, when none is left, we'll see then.

Listen you as a customer have the right to buy or not buy the game. Just as you have the right or not buy a copy-protected CD. I choose to buy DRMed music files from iTunes. I choose to put my CD in my drive so I can play the game. Aspyr is in a much better situation to know WHY there are frustrating some users. I'd do the same thing in their shoes. Realize they are not mean monsters doing this on purpose just against you. If there are other solutions? Probably.

I actually see mac game developer/porters as doing me a favor. They obviously must love what they are doing. Each time I buy one of their game I feel like I am saying: thanks, what you guys are doing is valuable and important to me.

I'd like to hear Aspyr and Feral talk about new copy-protection scheme they might adopt at some point. I agree that the CD-in is not the only available solution.

View Postelectricdawn, on June 10th 2006, 03:28 AM, said:

It's not about me, but about all the loyal(!) customers that have bought(!!) the game and bought a new Intel machine as well. Are you telling me that all of these customers can just go to hell, because we're the minority right now? Thank you for making this so clear. If you would sell games, I would probably stop buying from you. Obviously you don't value your customers very much.

You bought a game that was meant to run on PowerPC macs. Then you bought an intel Mac. I can't see how logically you could blame the publisher. The platform they released these games for what explicitly mentioned. A few game were ported to intel macs though.

#94 flargh

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 09:24 AM

View Postelectricdawn, on June 10th 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

My point is clear, if companies won't listen to my concerns I will stop buying from them. My wallet DOES count. Copy protection only hurts paying customers and the publisher itself in the end.

Nothing like a healhty dose of self-righteous indignation flavored by a repeat of "the customer is always right" mantra. Whatever, electricdawn. It's funny -- for someone hailing from Germany, you sound peculiarly American.

You've made it clear you're more interested in ranting than having an open minded discussion. Your decision has already been made -- and as far as I'm concerned, what you *think* YOU deserve as a paying customer is unreasonable.
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