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#21 DaveyJJ

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 03:22 PM

View PostTesseract, on April 7th 2006, 05:03 PM, said:

Whoa, cut down on the speed reading there boy! ;) The question was "Why is Havok so popular?"

Just excited is all.

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#22 Huntn

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 03:26 PM

View Postbobbob, on April 7th 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

They didn't use it for anything except the 'gravity gun' rip-off in the expansion that Aspyr forgot about. Oh, and the rag-doll corpses and flying barrels. That's the game, though, not the engine.

When I hear the word "physics engine", I think of how things interact with the environment. Havok is not about rag-doll and flying barrels, and projecting things and the way they land? What does it do then? Maybe I need some education.

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#23 bobbob

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 05:10 PM

View PostHuntn, on April 7th 2006, 02:26 PM, said:

Havok is not about rag-doll and flying barrels, and projecting things and the way they land? What does it do then? Maybe I need some education.

That's what it's about, and that's what Doom 3's physics engine was used for, it's just that Doom 3 didn't use it a whole lot. You can push boxes and barrels around, use hanging chains and corpses for punching bags, etc. but it's not as interesting as HL2's car traps are. Similar physics engines, different games.

#24 Huntn

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 05:53 AM

View Postbobbob, on April 7th 2006, 06:10 PM, said:

That's what it's about, and that's what Doom 3's physics engine was used for, it's just that Doom 3 didn't use it a whole lot. You can push boxes and barrels around, use hanging chains and corpses for punching bags, etc. but it's not as interesting as HL2's car traps are. Similar physics engines, different games.

So you know that the Doom 3 physics is just as good as HL2 physics all though ID did mot make much use of it. In Doom 3 your interaction with the environment was several steps below what HL2 offers. Sure you could kick around some boxes and you can jump on them, but you could not pick them up or throw them. Interaction with keypads, electrical and mechanical controls was supurb in D3, but overall the environment felt static as compared to HL2. HL2's grav gun with the ability to project items is a huge game dynamics, game play altering feature.

Is there another example of the Doom 3 physics engine, displaying the same kinds of environmental interactions as Havok or were you just surmising the D3 engine could do this? I don't know so I have to base my opinion on what I've seen in existing games. :)

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#25 Batcat

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 08:55 AM

The D3 expansion pack has a Grav Gun ripoff clone. Don't know about environmental interactions overall.

In Halo 2, dead bodies can slide down angled surfaces, even for 10+ seconds, slooooowly- and that's with a version only suited to a 733MHz CPU. Havok makes good physics engines, give 'em that.

#26 Huntn

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 09:32 AM

View PostBatcat, on April 8th 2006, 09:55 AM, said:

The D3 expansion pack has a Grav Gun ripoff clone. Don't know about environmental interactions overall.

I'd like to see that for comparison. Is the D3 physics engine, Id's or one of the other ones mentioned.
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#27 placebo

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 10:45 AM

I think that Ageia's Novodex physics integrated in Unreal Engine 3 look even better, especially since there will be ultra-complex physics simulations possible with the PhysX card.

#28 bobbob

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Posted 08 April 2006 - 08:08 PM

View PostHuntn, on April 8th 2006, 04:53 AM, said:

sure you could kick around some boxes and you can jump on them, but you could not pick them up or throw them

So? Just because the game didn't have a grav-gun until the expansion, and the game doesn't let you pick up boxes and stuff, doesn't mean it has anything to do with the engine. The fact that the boxes, barrels, bodies, chains, and debris move like they do show the engine is capable.

#29 Huntn

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Posted 09 April 2006 - 08:57 AM

View Postbobbob, on April 8th 2006, 09:08 PM, said:

So? Just because the game didn't have a grav-gun until the expansion, and the game doesn't let you pick up boxes and stuff, doesn't mean it has anything to do with the engine. The fact that the boxes, barrels, bodies, chains, and debris move like they do show the engine is capable.

Are you playing devil's advocate (as you love to do) or do you have experience with both physics engines? I based my statements on comparing HL2 to D3 (the original). Unless I know specifically about  the capabilities of a physics engine, I would not assume what it is capable of. But I can make a game to game comparision. HL2's physics (what you are allowed to do) are better than D3's (the original). I realize this is a different argument than what a physics engine is capable of.

I never played the D3 expansion so maybe its physics are just as good as Havok. But I would never surmise that because a box can be shoved, that  it can also be picked up and thrown. As you are the expert on these physics engines, maybe you could make a comparison between the two of them.

If there is anyone who has played the D3 expansion, I'd like to know if its physics engine is just as capable as Havok.

If the other physics engines are just as good, I'd really like to know why developers are plunking down big $ for Havok. :)

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#30 bobbob

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Posted 09 April 2006 - 05:37 PM

View PostHuntn, on April 9th 2006, 07:57 AM, said:

I would never surmise that because a box can be shoved, that  it can also be picked up and thrown.

Some barrels are picked up and thrown by zombies, and the physics of barrels and boxes look similar to HL2. They topple, and roll, etc. and the tumbling boxes and swinging chains in particular take certain joint and collision equations to work, whether they were 'thrown' by the physics engine or just 'shoved'. I don't have the source, maybe there is some kind of collision (deformation?) that Havok handles that Doom 3 doesn't, I'm just saying that for what HL2 shows the only noticable differences in physics are the choice of the game. For example, Deus Ex let you pick up boxes, but its physics aren't any more advanced than the Unreal Tournament engine it's based on.

#31 Huntn

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Posted 09 April 2006 - 10:17 PM

View Postbobbob, on April 9th 2006, 06:37 PM, said:

Some barrels are picked up and thrown by zombies, and the physics of barrels and boxes look similar to HL2. They topple, and roll, etc. and the tumbling boxes and swinging chains in particular take certain joint and collision equations to work, whether they were 'thrown' by the physics engine or just 'shoved'. I don't have the source, maybe there is some kind of collision (deformation?) that Havok handles that Doom 3 doesn't, I'm just saying that for what HL2 shows the only noticable differences in physics are the choice of the game. For example, Deus Ex let you pick up boxes, but its physics aren't any more advanced than the Unreal Tournament engine it's based on.

You may have all ready said this, but then there is the issue of where the physics engine stops and the developer's creativity kicks in. :) All though I found D3 to be a spooky game and gave it a thumbs up, I think HL2 is a better all around game, but now I'm sounding like a broken record...

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#32 DaveyJJ

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 11:10 AM

OK, moy coworker actually brought his 20" 256MB video card and legal copy of HL2 in to work today. he showed me Lost Coast (with the HDR lighting). Not only does it run beautifully with almost everything set to high ... I can say, without a doubt ...

I have never seen such a beautiful game on any PC ever. It is that beautiful.

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#33 Batcat

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 05:10 PM

H-L 2: Aftermath is scheduled for the 24th. :)

#34 teflon

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 05:22 PM

ahem...


Half Life 2 Episode One

i think youll find ;)
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#35 Batcat

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 05:41 PM

View Postteflon, on April 11th 2006, 06:22 PM, said:

ahem...
Half Life 2 Episode One

i think youll find ;)
I've mentioned a name change (and delay) elsewhere if you search my posts... and I think you'll find few that know more of Half-Life. Did you play 1 when it came out in '98? ;) So have a look at

http://www.gogamer.c...t/View/001HAL2A

Boxes are printed... but of course you'll DL yours via Steam. :shifty:

#36 beanworld

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Posted 12 April 2006 - 11:11 AM

On a related note, has anyone done the CS:S thing on an iMac or MBP?

#37 placebo

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 10:21 AM

Yeah, it got 100+ FPS I believe.

#38 FortranDragon

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 01:59 PM

View PostBatcat, on April 11th 2006, 06:10 PM, said:

H-L 2: Aftermath is scheduled for the 24th. :)

The retail release date is now June 1.  Preloading (what a stupid term) on Steam will start in May.

#39 teflon

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 03:33 PM

is that where you download it but have to wait to get it unlocked???

what happens when you download it? can you burn it onto disk? or does steam save your profile in case you need to wipe your HDD and then you can download it again?
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#40 Huntn

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 04:28 PM

View Postteflon, on April 16th 2006, 04:33 PM, said:

is that where you download it but have to wait to get it unlocked???

what happens when you download it? can you burn it onto disk? or does steam save your profile in case you need to wipe your HDD and then you can download it again?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think Steam lets you have much if any control of its products.  When I was installing HL2 off a disk, I noticed that the all the files were encrypted and they did not unstuff until you registered online with Steam.

-Hunt'n