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Bootcamp: The Death of Mac Games?


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#41 Skyfox

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 01:49 PM

I knew that apple would eventually make it easier to dual boot, but I had always assumed they were going to do it gradually over the next 3 years.

Apple decides: SHEBANG! FWOOMF! "We support dual boot" Surprising.

Sadly the Mac gaming market is going to all but die in the next few years. After that it will remain to be seen whether either apple attains a larger market share, or fades away alltogether.

#42 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 01:59 PM

View PostHaoshiro, on April 5th 2006, 01:19 PM, said:

Sure, but I think this will do more for PC gamers switching to mac then those Mac users who want to play PC games.

And PC gamers, all that I've known, are far above average in their technical know-how...  I mean, you almost have to be... what with reinstalling your OS all the time, etc... heh.

So maybe Mac gamers aren't, but maybe they'll still try Boot Camp if it means getting games Faster *and* Cheaper.


Not nessasarily, in general I don't see people having to reinstall their Windows OS "all the time" I didn't have to when I was primarily a PC user. Nor do I see all PC Gamers all being far above average in technical know how there are too many to say that for sure and I know quite a few who wouldn't even install an OS or know what to do when their computer is broken. In other words there are different levels of PC gamers and hardcore PC gamers are not the majority. I know if I had an intel mac (I currently have PPC) I'd try boot camp for those games that aren't available for the mac but I know I'm not anywhere near the majority as I not only mess with Mac and Windows but other OS' as well.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

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#43 Auron

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 02:07 PM

View PostiRolley, on April 5th 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Unless it runs the full windows OS. I remember going back and forth from Gnome to OSX just using a keyboard shortcut on my Mac (no rebooting). Its very different to running windows but still, if it runs the full windows OS, it would have 3d capability.

There's no way that would work with windows, and yes its very different, Gnome is just a graphical top to an OS, nowhere near a full OS.

#44 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 02:11 PM

View PostAuron, on April 5th 2006, 02:07 PM, said:

There's no way that would work with windows, and yes its very different, Gnome is just a graphical top to an OS, nowhere near a full OS.
Gnome is a desktop environment which is a graphical shell and API's to support Applications but it still does need an OS to run on top of whereas Windows is a full OS. The equivalent would have to be some kind of Wine solution to be similar to running Gnome on OS X.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

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#45 iRolley

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 02:15 PM

View PostAuron, on April 5th 2006, 02:07 PM, said:

There's no way that would work with windows ...

It will, beleive me:
http://www.intel.com...mputing/vptech/
http://www.macrumors...221214050.shtml

[edit] ok I might be too irrealistic. Let's say I meant: "It would, beleive me" ;-)

Quote

and yes its very different, Gnome is just a graphical top to an OS, nowhere near a full OS.

I provided the gnome example to show that it is actually convenient.

#46 Auron

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 02:25 PM

View PostiRolley, on April 5th 2006, 04:15 PM, said:

It will, beleive me:
http://www.intel.com...mputing/vptech/
http://www.macrumors...221214050.shtml
I provided the gnome example to show that it is actually convenient.

Those are fine imformative links, but where's the proof games will run well under such virtualization?

#47 dj phat 2000

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 02:57 PM

I for one believe this marks the end of Mac gaming.  Unless the publishers can now push a game out within a month (no later to tell you the truth), most people that game and REALLY want to game, but don't want to buy a PC (like I already did) will just duel boot there MacBooks/MacPro/and whatever there names will be Mac's to XP and call it a day.  

Point two, is that Open GL on the Mac is slower then the speed of Open GL on the PC.  Not to mention most games use Direct X, so no more porting this crap over to a half baked Open GL Mac version.  I'm not saying Open GL on the Mac is broken, just that it is not as fast as the PC side is.  Drivers, OS optimizations ect lead to this I am sure but, it is what it is.  So why would any real gamer play a Mac version when the PC version on the exact same hardware will run faster, and you WILL get updates quicker as well.  For instance, is the Mac version of Quake 4 SMP optimized or will we have to wait for a patch?  If we have to wait then you can see where this will lead.  I can buy a PC version right now, and get a patch that will let that MacBook Pro go faster in that game because it has dual cores, while the Mac version would be running slower on the same hardware.   Not good, if you want to sell that game on the Mac, if has to be fast to release and updates need to come quickly too.  I would say a months time difference would be fine, or tolerable.  Much past that I think you will lost out on customers that want to buy the game.  That first rush of people.  Heck how many games people beat in a few days or hours.  They tell there friends hey, this game is either great or is sucks.  

I don't want to be negative about this, but lets see this for exactly what it is.  People WILL purchase a copy of Windows and install it on there Mac's.  They will consider playing the same games they have on the PC on there Mac's cause they can.  And once that starts to work "even good enough" remember Windows was always "good enough".  Open the flood gates my friends, for the end is nigh.  Unless pub's can push out games faster, I don't see much a chance.  I'd like to be proven wrong on this.

#48 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 03:15 PM

I don't think this spells an end for mac gaming in general anymore than dual  booting with linux spells and end for linux gaming there are still a few AAA titles being released for Linux even though it tends to be the second additional OS. Now Windows will be the second additional OS and it'll take a person actually willing to pay the extra money and time needed to install windows in addition to OS X. So I think it's too soon to say it's just doom and gloom for mac gaming in general.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

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#49 Brad Oliver

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 03:24 PM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on April 5th 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

I don't think this spells an end for mac gaming in general anymore than dual  booting with linux spells and end for linux gaming there are still a few AAA titles being released for Linux even though it tends to be the second additional OS.

Right now, Linux gaming is a virtual ghetto compared to Mac gaming, so I don't know that it's the best comparison to make.
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#50 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 03:28 PM

View PostBrad Oliver, on April 5th 2006, 03:24 PM, said:

Right now, Linux gaming is a virtual ghetto compared to Mac gaming, so I don't know that it's the best comparison to make.
Well maybe not but at least in the worst case scenario it might not mean no games at all.
--Tetsuo

Alex Delarg, A Clockwork Orange said:

It's funny how the colors of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen.

the Battle Cat said:

Slower and faster? I'm sorry to hear such good news?

Late 2012 27 inch iMac, Core i7 Quad 3.4GHz, 16GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB, 3TB HDD - Mavericks

Late 2009 27 inch iMac, Core i5 2.6GHz, 12GB RAM, ATI Radeon 4850HD 512MB, 1TB HDD - Mavericks

Mac Mini, PowerPC G4 1.4Ghz, 1GB RAM, Radeon 9200 32MB, 256GB HDD - Leopard

Dell Inspiron 1200 Notebook: 1.2GHz Celeron, 1.2GB RAM, Intel GMA915, 75GB HDD - Ubuntu

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#51 mrnintendoguy

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 03:28 PM

Anyone done it yet? Did it work? Can you play Battlefield 2 with a good framerate? Half-Life 2? F.E.A.R? Far-Cry? Tribes?

#52 Mister Mumbles

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 03:32 PM

Apparently, the likes of Battlefield 2 and Rome: Total War run just fine and dandy. ;)
Formerly known as a Mac gamer.

#53 Eric5h5

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 05:05 PM

View Postjohnwillo, on April 5th 2006, 02:16 PM, said:

For those who want to stay legal, remember that places like Newegg will sell OEM versions of XP for a LOT less than a boxed version from CompUSA.  

For those who really want to stay legal, you shouldn't even buy the OEM version.  Those are intended for...wait for it...yep, OEMs.

--Eric

#54 DaveyJJ

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 05:08 PM

View PostPegasus, on April 5th 2006, 05:32 PM, said:

Apparently, the likes of Battlefield 2 and Rome: Total War run just fine and dandy. ;)

See pics here ... of RTW naturally  ;)

http://www.insidemac...showtopic=24976

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#55 zapranoth

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 06:10 PM

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

:huh:
"I use heavy strings, tune low, play hard, and floor it.
Floor it.  That's technical talk."   - SRV

#56 wickedsteve

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 06:40 PM

View PostEric5h5, on April 5th 2006, 05:05 PM, said:

For those who really want to stay legal, you shouldn't even buy the OEM version.  Those are intended for...wait for it...yep, OEMs.

--Eric

If selling OEM stuff were illegal...
I serve too many masters.

#57 mindnoise

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 06:44 PM

HI,

just to have my blurb also engraved for eternity:

I think Iīll drop dead from my command chair.

Games seem to run fine with bootcamp, dual booting WILL happen lotīs of as long as itīs hot, then
the rate will drop to an average low. Like someone else in the forums nailed it:
If I donīt boot OS9 for DeusEx nothing will make me do it.

part time true, Iīve just some much unfinished, never played before Games for OS X,
but DX will be among the next turns, again.

Oblivion, HL2, Brotherhood of Steel and TONS of cheap games.  LIFE  I S  TOO SHORT!!!
(damn, Iīve got a academic career to care about...)

I saw the sky falling today, ... Iīll think Iīll weep.

regs
hey, don´t worry - it´s only red pixels on your hands...

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#58 Eric5h5

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 07:03 PM

View Postwickedsteve, on April 5th 2006, 08:40 PM, said:

If selling OEM stuff were illegal...

Note the disclaimers NewEgg has with their OEM stuff.  I know very well that nobody is going to get busted for it.  I'm just sayin'.

--Eric

#59 Batcat

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 09:48 PM

View PostEric5h5, on April 5th 2006, 08:03 PM, said:

Note the disclaimers NewEgg has with their OEM stuff.  I know very well that nobody is going to get busted for it.  I'm just sayin'.

--Eric
I'm afraid you're wrong on this one, Eric. This isn't even a 'grey market' area, where you're, say, at a computer show and buy a copy of Windows marked as 'not for resale,' having been supplied originally with a Dell, Compaq etc and so labeled. MS frowns on that, but in those cases some OEM bought x number of Win [whatever] licenses, ended up not using all of them and dumped the rest to some distributor. MS doesn't like it and limits support, but won't bust you.

The OEM/System Integrator/builder deal is different. Most who build their own go that route, it is legal as long as you buy hardware with it (usually a motherboard, hard drive or CPU, but sometimes less), and it is supported. OEM copies of XP have a limited number of online activations before you have to call MS and get a new #, but it's not illegal. Newegg is the largest etailer in the world, not some fly-by-night operation and yes, I've read the docs.

#60 nixice

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 10:03 PM

View PostArenzera, on April 5th 2006, 09:13 AM, said:

Well instead of booting into Windows, people can boot into the superior Mac OS X and run their favourite games natively. It's like saying Classic (or the ability to boot into Mac OS 9) was the death of Carbon games when Mac OS X was first released.

When there's a demand for games to run natively: that's what the incentive to create native Mac games will be.

Kiel :-)

Er, not sure if I'd go as far as to compare it to the Carbon/Classic evolution. Carbon was the future of Mac, so it made sense for developers to code to it and work towards it; BootCamp is tangent and yet is ... I don't want to at all call it the future of Mac for everybody to be boot-swapping, but I'd imagine a good percentage of people will have it on their Macs even if they're staunch PC exiles just because of the sheer volume of titles available on PC but not on Mac.

Pure Mac games have weathered the worst of it and will likely still keep kicking and hollering -- companies Ambrosia won't switch to Windows-first ports, they're success has been in being a good and known Mac company. That, and just the logo of "For play on Macintosh" gets you placement in Apple stores and sections, so it's smart to keep targetting it even if the base code is plenty happy in the PC world.

The question really is about companies like Aspyr and MacSoft, how much benefit they really get in continuing to port? Intel Macs are already much faster to port to than PPC, so my earlier feeling -- way before BootCamp -- was that we'd see hybrid disc releases of major games if Intel Mac took off. That hasn't happened yet, and I don't know now many publishers pushing its devs to consider Mac while working on the general version, but it still could as Intel Macs settle over. Modern middleware lets you keep your projects connected in the pipeline with little concern for porting until certain stages, so it's just a matter of publishers recognizing that -- up until now, they've just not seen the numbers ring up right, and Aspyr must be a fun company to work with if they've got so many names on the docket, so no reason to screw that pooch. With Intel Macs and now Bootcamp, though...

According to Tuncer's article, Aspyr is already thinking about what it's going to do next. MacSoft is in a better position, though -- they've got Destineer, and they already do simultaneous releases. My guess would be that any company that has to rely on other company's games for other platforms is in trouble because of BootCamp, but maybe -- as Andrew of Ambrosia said -- BootCamp will actually help native Mac games since so many will take to it easily and so many will wish to stay on Mac.