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Fallout 3


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#41 Eric5h5

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 09:13 PM

View PostHuntn, on May 12th 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

I respect different opinions, but I assume that previous Fallout and other isometric view games were created due to limits in technology at the time they were created.

No.  There have been 3D RPGs since the 80s...the fact is that it's limiting, plain and simple.  Less so now because of making everything out of polygons, but the fact remains.  The "immersion" excuse doesn't hold up, because immersion is created by good gameplay, not "ooh look, I'm walking around in 3D."  Now I like a good 3D game with nice graphics quite a lot indeed, but not for EVERY game.  Leaving gameplay aside, 1st-person is also limiting from a production standpoint.  You have to take the time to make everything look good when detailed up close, so unless you have a huge budget, you'd be better off making the gameplay decision to have top-down graphics that work well from a distance, so you can focus more on other aspects of the production such as the gameplay and story.

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#42 Dark_Archon

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:08 AM

The real point is that Elder Scrolls aren't very story driven RPGs. They do have stories, but it seems as if they are afterthoughts. Bethesda seemed like they wanted to make sure everything looked pretty before even starting on a storyline, so the story of the games seem like what they are... an afterthought. Fallout games have been very story driven, where the writing is more important than graphics. That is why a game like Fallout has stood the test of time, and a game like Oblivion won't. When a game relies purely on graphics, the graphics get outdated fairly fast, making the game go out of date. Fallout is around ten years old, and people still play it. In five years, Oblivion will look like crap compared to what comes out. Too bad the graphics are the only thing it has going for it...

View PostHuntn, on May 12th 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

I respect different opinions, but I assume that previous Fallout and other isometric view games were created due to limits in technology at the time they were created.
It has nothing to do with technology, and definitely nothing to do with nostalgia. Some games just don't work in first person view, and in 95% of the games I've tried, camera control sucks. Having a stationary camera just makes everything simpler. Fallout is a tactical RPG. You need to be able to see what else is going on. Oblivion is a twitch RPG. You don't need to be able to see as much, you just need to run up to something and start clicking. I dislike Oblivion for the same reasons why I dislike shooters. I prefer my games to be at least slightly intellectually stimulating.

View PostHuntn, on May 12th 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

New games take advantage of new technology and should not allow themselves to be boxed into a dated format. A game plot and setting like Fallout can be improved upon without destroying the nature of it's game play, can't it?
There is no more effective way of destroying the nature of the gameplay of Fallout then taking the world and transplanting it into the Oblivion engine. Comparing Fallout to Elder Scrolls is the same as comparing Civilization 4 to Age of Empires 3. Sure, they are both strategy games, but they aren't comparable. Civ4 wouldn't work as a real time strategy, and AoE3 wouldn't work as a turn based strategy.

I would love to see a Fallout 3 with updated graphics. The visuals were pulled off very well with Neverwinter Nights, and as long as there is a setting that leaves the camera alone except for when the user specifically tries to rotate it, that would be fine. If it is a twitch game, I don't care how pretty it looks, it won't be acknowledged  as Fallout 3 by the Fallout community. Sure, I would prefer the handpainted backdrops like in Baldurs Gate because they have more artistic of a feel(*imagines hand painted backdrops of giant cities filled with buildings of the Art Deco style architecture lying in ruins...), but if it had to be more "modern" I'd be ok with that.
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#43 Tacohead

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 08:25 AM

Others summed up my feelings on this pretty nicely. The main point being that an Oblivion-like approach/engine just wouldn't work well with certain game types or sub-types. I hope I'm wrong about Bethesda's Fallout 3. I really do. But I don't have much confidence in the project at this point. We'll see.  :D

Here's a peek at what would have been.



It looks like Black Isle Studios made some nice improvements to the engine  without it messing with the look and feel of the previous Fallouts. Their Fallout 3 was apparently nearly finished before the project got canned. Very unfortunate.  :(

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#44 Cyan421

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 09:53 AM

Huntn, I think you need to go download some roms of Final Fantasy 2, 3, or even Dragon Warrior 4 and play them.  ( i dont know if there are mac versions of those) Those games are RPGs.  That means they are story based.  Today FF3 is as much of an immersive experience as WoW, for me.  Obviously people are looking for retro feeling games and developers are succeededing with them, probably experimenting more in their creations than other developers.  With Final Fantasy 7 there is some 3D feel to it, but the camera isnt in control of the gamer.  It moves durring cut scenes.  I think in other, later, Final Fantasy titles they went full 3D but it still succedes as a story driven RPG. (I don't know for sure, i didnt play them).  I do think its possible to put the story of Fallout into the engine or style of Oblivion, but i doubt at the hands of the makers of Oblivion.  I think thats were most of these peoples fears come from.

#45 Rev-O

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 10:30 AM

View PostTacohead, on May 13th 2007, 08:25 AM, said:

Others summed up my feelings on this pretty nicely. The main point being that an Oblivion-like approach/engine just wouldn't work well with certain game types or sub-types. I hope I'm wrong about Bethesda's Fallout 3. I really do. But I don't have much confidence in the project at this point. We'll see.  :D

Here's a peek at what would have been.



It looks like Black Isle Studios made some nice improvements to the engine  without it messing with the look and feel of the previous Fallouts. Their Fallout 3 was apparently nearly finished before the project got canned. Very unfortunate.  :(

-PN

That's a shame. Van Buren/ Fallout 3 looked pretty good.

#46 Tesseract

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:33 AM

Going fully 3D isn't necessarily a bad thing for Fallout, but if you also make it real-time, with a camera/control scheme like that of WoW or NWN, it creates some problems. NWN is real-time on top of turn-based rules, and it only does an okay-ish job of things. For example, how far can you run in a round in NWN? Can you make it around the corner before that goblin can fire his bow at you again? It's really hard to tell.

Fallout's system of hex tiles and action points makes it very easy to answer questions like that. The turn-based combat system is a large part of what makes the game so good.

#47 Huntn

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 02:39 PM

I salute the Fallout fans preying for the same game mechanics and camera system. I still like you! :)

I am now informed that isometric view was not a technology limitation but a game design limitation, my guess is to limit technology and design issues.

Oblivion is not a twitch game.

Don't dislike, blame, or assume 3D and/or good graphics makes the story suffer. It would be just as easy to write a good story first and then throw in the pretty graphics. I don't believe the former excludes the latter or vice a versa. It's all choices that developers make. I will be surprised if F3 will be a traditional isometric view game and it could still be very good... or a flop.

View PostTesseract, on May 14th 2007, 07:33 AM, said:

NWN is real-time on top of turn-based rules, and it only does an okay-ish job of things.

A heretic has besmirched one of our RPG classics? Arise to smite him!! :D
(author's note: this comment falls under the category of humor and in no way represents a serious view point.)

Edited by Huntn, 15 May 2007 - 02:55 PM.


#48 DavidM

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 07:20 PM

View PostHuntn, on May 14th 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

I am now informed that isometric view was not a technology limitation but a game design limitation, my guess is to limit technology and design issues.

Huntn, you actually still don't understand. As I recall, you said earlier that you came to RPG's through FPS, so it is not surprising that you don't. I would guess most of those in this thread come to this point from a different background.

Isometric is a gameplay style. It has nothing to do with technology or design limitations or graphic limitations. It could be in 3d or not. It could be high quality graphics or not. What it  is, is a choice of gameplay preferred by many.

I, and probably many others come here from pen and paper Role-Playing and/or board games and miniatures, where you sit at a table looking down on a game board, game pieces or minatures that represent your character. In essence a tactical battlefield. This doesn't work well from 1st or 3rd person.

D&D was first created as set of miniature rules for medieval warfare. This is still an inherent part of the game, and many other pen and paper role-playing games. You can only capture this style of play in a top down view.

Traditionally, CRPG have been turned based, even the ones in the first person, such as Wizardry, and turn based captures that feel of tactical combat.

So, changing from the isometric view to 1st/3rd person changes gameplay significantly. It is no longer the same thing a Fallout game. Now, you may be right and it might be a lot of fun to play, but it still won't be the same because gameplay is being altered.

Hope I wasn't too wordy there.  :D

#49 Huntn

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 09:05 AM

View PostDavidM, on May 15th 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

Hope I wasn't too wordy there.  :D

Not at all. I appreciate the clarification. :)

I'm just not an isometric-only view enthusiast. I'm not saying you have isometric view on a pedestal, but I have played many real time strategy games where 3rd person is the standard to maintain situational awareness and many views are available. Boxing the player into a Isometric view is not required to keep the tactical picture nor is it required to maintain a certain feeling imo. Multiple views gives the player the choice to pick what they prefer. You might find it interesting that in WoW, usually I'm in fairly close 3rd person view with the camera fairly close to the ground so I'm viewing the horizon, but when I'm a healer in a party in a big fight, I usually pull back and raise the camera to something approximating isometric to keep track of everyone. :)

What really turns me off about traditional isometric view games is rooms without ceilings and tops of walls cut off. That is a technical issue as it makes less work for the developer if they have you locked in to one view. And personally it is a detriment to immersion into the environment, but that is just me. ;)

#50 Huntn

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 11:48 AM

I just talked to a Software ETC store manager who told me that Fallout 3 will be using the Unreal engine and that it will offer camera control with a variety of views. (I did not verify the accuracy of his statements) :) Very interesting teaser pic over at the Fallout site.

#51 the Battle Cat

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 01:53 PM

The two pics on that site look very much like the amazing work of Craig Mullins who worked for Bungie on Marathon 2 and Infinity as well as many other games.  Is there any way to confirm that it is Craig's work?
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#52 DavidM

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 12:59 AM

The video is out:
Here on the Fallout 3 website


I had completely forgotten about it.

It shows nothing about gameplay, a cut scene in essence but gives the impression they have a feel and understanding for the Fallout world.

#53 Smoke_Tetsu

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 01:36 AM

Yeah you can't really draw any conclusions about the game from that teaser but it does look interesting. Like is it even a game that fits in this sub-forum? It's like if Blizzard simply released the Starcraft II trailer and that's it. I bet you people would speculate that it might be an MMO.
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#54 txa1265

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 02:26 AM

I just got from it that they clearly do understand the mythos of Fallout ... and really nothing else.

But that is something.  For the rest we still have ~2 years (anyone believing Fall 08 will happen needs a reality check ;) ) to find out.
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#55 Huntn

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 07:30 AM

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on June 6th 2007, 02:36 AM, said:

Yeah you can't really draw any conclusions about the game from that teaser but it does look interesting. Like is it even a game that fits in this sub-forum?

If I'm not mistaken Fallout = RPG, no? Gamespot article.

#56 the Battle Cat

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 08:25 AM

View PostHuntn, on June 6th 2007, 06:30 AM, said:

View PostSmoke_Tetsu, on June 6th 2007, 12:36 AM, said:

Yeah you can't really draw any conclusions about the game from that teaser but it does look interesting. Like is it even a game that fits in this sub-forum? It's like if Blizzard simply released the Starcraft II trailer and that's it. I bet you people would speculate that it might be an MMO.
If I'm not mistaken Fallout = RPG, no? Gamespot article.
And PlayStation Universe pegs it as a MMO so either way (or both), at least until further news clarifies it otherwise, this thread is in the correct sub-forum.
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#57 Tesseract

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 04:18 AM

View PostDavidM, on May 16th 2007, 11:20 AM, said:

Isometric is a gameplay style.
Actually it's a type of 2D->3D projection. Although, due to square pixels being used, many games that are called "isometric" actually use a dimetric projection because it looks nicer. Camera movements other than tracking perpendicular to the view direction look really weird when using an isometric projection.

Many isometric games use tile-based movement, but the two aren't tightly coupled. For example the Exile series uses a sort of 3/4 perspective on a rectangular grid, and Starcraft and Diablo II use isometric views.

#58 PeopleLikeFrank

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 07:51 AM

Just a wee quote from PA. I don't actually have a strong opinion on it, but, as usual, Tycho is pretty funny about it:

Tycho - Penny Arcade, on June 6th 2007, 12:00 AM, said:

I have seen opinions running the rage on the Fallout 3 Teaser, but I brave those forums daily - I'm well over the DRI for franchise-related anguish. The clip is not designed to shock or startle people, it has only one purpose - to deliver a high-pressure jet of fan service. Of course, many of the hardcore fans are actually irritated by such brazen attempts to placate them. And thus we see the heavy stone, and also the steep hill, and look! There's Sisyphus, waving madly. Is he greeting us, or warning us?

I consider myself a fan of Fallout, at any rate I did before, and I was grieved to see it ransacked at the hands of an increasingly desperate Interplay. But it's become clear that what makes it Fallout to me is very different than it is for other fans. We ran into the same issue with Tribal War over Tribes 2, culminating in a brutal conflict that pitted gamer against gamer. As it relates to Fallout, I am distinguished from what you might call the Orthodox fan of the series. One is that I simply believe that elements like Turn-Based and Isometric were artifacts of their time. There is nothing wrong with them mechanically, they do not want for elegance, and the genre is still going strong in Japanese titles that I play and enjoy. But I'm not going to create a religion out of it because tiled environments happened to be expedient a million fire trucking years ago.

Fallout is not - for me - defined by its perspective.  It's defined by the unique setting, and the meaningful, satisfying choices I can make to affect that setting. I don't care where the camera is.  If those things are intact, they can put the camera in geosynchronous Goddamn orbit.

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#59 Riko

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 12:35 AM

More info here: http://nma-fallout.c...pic.php?t=36877

#60 Tacohead

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 09:43 AM

View PostRiko, on June 16th 2007, 11:35 PM, said:


Ughhh.  I can just see it now. A Ciderized OSX Fallout 3, Oblivion with Guns, "RPG" that only 5% of all Mac owners can actually play due to the system requirements.

Seriously though, It's early so I'm willing to give this the benefit of the doubt. However, it's really getting slammed in the Fallout 3 message boards.

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