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Anybody else had enough of this?


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#21 yves

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 03:05 PM

didnt glenda once say in an interview that openGL is so weaved into the OS that its hard to dedicate all its power in the most efficient way to one game. it had to do with open gl not being able to directly communicate with the hardware cause of certain unix layers slowing things down.
I cant imagine it being easily fixed but maybe mr Olivier can enlighten us some more on possible improvements.
anyway I'm just trying to make this a constructive discussion without really having anything constructive to say but i hope this isnt taken as another unfundamentalised flaming.
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#22 dj phat 2000

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 04:09 PM

F.E.A.R
Far Cry
Half-Life
Half-Life 2
Quake 4
Pain Killer
Max Payne 2 (I have the first one, great game)
CS (how many are there?  None on Mac though. :( )
Unreal II (we had unreal and all the Tournaments what happened here?  Will we get III?)

That is 9 games right there I would buy if it was on the Mac. I know we get games, but I am not into Sims, Golf, or simulators.  I like blowing stuff up, and or people (not real people, game people) First person shooters, and quake style games.  There was another game Area 51 on the PC that I wanted to look at.  Its not on Mac either.  

I don't know if Apple could help out by pulling a Microsoft and buy a gaming company.  Maybe they could.  Maybe if they did buy Aspyr and just funded the gaming more.  It would be great.  Get them to focus on their OpenGL not performing right problem.  It works but it is slower then the PC side.  I'm talking Apple fixing there OS Open GL not Aspyr.  This would help other gaming shops like Macsoft.  If everything is up to spec, then they could bring even more games over.  Fund for Havok licenses, and other types of Havok's that come out.  At least one dev shop can offer some Hakov based games.  But, then at the very least.  We could get Mac only and Mac first games.  This should be the primary goal IMO.  If we can't have compelling gaming content.  It will never be taken seriously.

#23 Frost

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 04:50 PM

dj phat 2000, on November 27th 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

Unreal II (we had unreal and all the Tournaments what happened here?  Will we get III?)

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You know, that's one thing I always wondered about. Far as I know the Unreal series have been pretty popular among Mac gamers. Why the heck were we passed over for Unreal II, which I've repeatedly heard was actually pretty good? I saw the game for $5 and grabbed it on impulse just incase I can play it under emulation someday with a really powerful Mac or incase a free PC falls into my lap, but it sure would be nice to play on the Mac natively.
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When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#24 the Battle Cat

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 08:07 PM

Batcat, on November 27th 2005, 12:56 PM, said:

If folks are dreaming and think that Steve really cares a lot about gaming, why not dream that he buys Havok and Gamespy to effectively eliminate the middleware issue?

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Sure that's fine.  Just as long as he keeps his filthy mitts off of Aspyr.
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#25 Space_Pirate_Killer

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 12:05 AM

the Battle Cat, on November 27th 2005, 07:07 PM, said:

Sure that's fine.  Just as long as he keeps his filthy mitts off of Aspyr.

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Apple could give them more money, which couldn't be bad.  :mellow:
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#26 Civic

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 12:13 AM

What do you mean by "more"...? Do they get money by Apple already? :huh:

#27 Tomatocow

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 12:37 AM

Civic, on November 28th 2005, 03:13 PM, said:

What do you mean by "more"...? Do they get money by Apple already? :huh:

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Perhaps he knows something we don't. I doubt that actually.

#28 Batcat

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:13 AM

dj phat 2000, on November 27th 2005, 05:09 PM, said:

Unreal II (we had unreal and all the Tournaments what happened here?  Will we get III?)

Frost, on November 27th 2005, 05:50 PM, said:

You know, that's one thing I always wondered about. Far as I know the Unreal series have been pretty popular among Mac gamers. Why the heck were we passed over for Unreal II, which I've repeatedly heard was actually pretty good? I saw the game for $5 and grabbed it on impulse just in case I can play it under emulation someday with a really powerful Mac or in case a free PC falls into my lap, but it sure would be nice to play on the Mac natively.
It didn't sell too well. It wasn't a second edition of U1, wasn't set on Na Pali, didn't get all mysterious and moody with that Unreal music that implied more was going on then was eventually revealed and so on. (Atmosphere, mood, mystery, implications... boss fight?!) It had some weak points as a more conventional mission-based futuristic FPS and high sys reqs, but overall I think it was the first set of characteristics folks couldn't get past; they wanted the second coming of U1 despite the fact that they'd already had that with the mission pack Return to Na Pali. They didn't go back to Na Pali and free the Nali with better sound & graphics. U1 was a package deal that I loved, too, except it didn't actually deliver- just left you hanging in space...

For me, tho, once I got past that (not the Second Coming), it was a kick-ass FPS with fine-to-great weapons (my favorite rocket & grenade launchers & flamethrower included), and got almost universal praise for several 'defense' scenarios- you and some AIs had to defend a locale against oppos while setting up fixed defenses at your discretion like MG and rocket turrets and energy fences... OK, story was a bit weak, voice acting could've been better, no Titans or Nali healing fruit... but overlook those and the graphics, music and all set a nice atmosphere to set the shooting in, and with great attention to detail. I was thinking of nominating it for that 'port next' list, but I didn't think it had a chance.

With a shortage of good shooters, it might still sell on the Mac, but it came out in early '03. (Then again, it was only 3 months before Wolf: ET, so...)

Developer Legend did one of the first Unreal-engined games (Wheel of Time, 12/98); on the strength of that well-regarded game was hired by Epic to do Return to Na Pali, then U2. After that they were retained long enough to do U2 XMP (eXtended MultiPlayer), a vehicle and resource-based MP variant that Epic took much of for UT2004, then were dissolved by Atari.

#29 Space_Pirate_Killer

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:46 AM

Civic, on November 27th 2005, 11:13 PM, said:

What do you mean by "more"...? Do they get money by Apple already? :huh:

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More money than they have now.

Or maybe, I'm lying.
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#30 Hippieman

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 09:48 AM

Brad Oliver, on November 27th 2005, 03:11 PM, said:

Admittedly I spent a large amount of my time programming in OpenGL, so maybe I'm missing the forest for the trees, but I don't buy the argument that OpenGL is horribly broken or that there is something to Apple's implementation that is easily fixed.

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Just to play Devils Advocate, wouldn't the problem with OpenGL be Direct X?
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#31 Huntn

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 10:18 AM

the Battle Cat, on November 27th 2005, 10:16 AM, said:

NooooOOOOoooOOOoooOOOOOooooo!!!!  Apple, you'd better keep your grubby dew hooks off of Aspyr!  Jobs would gut the soul out of my favorite gaming company like it was a chicken in an whirling evisceration machine.

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If Apple bought Aspyr, it would represent Apple's commitment and money towards Mac gaming! If anything it would expand Aspyr's ability to bring quality games to the Mac. Buying a havok license might be doable. :)

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#32 Morrigan

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 10:22 AM

Maybe Apple should just pay for the Havoc (or whatever the obstacle) licensing for any port being done by Aspyr and others...

#33 edddeduck

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 10:46 AM

yves, on November 27th 2005, 02:05 PM, said:

didnt glenda once say in an interview that openGL is so weaved into the OS that its hard to dedicate all its power in the most efficient way to one game. it had to do with open gl not being able to directly communicate with the hardware cause of certain unix layers slowing things down.

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I think I remember this interview, I believe Glenda was talking about how in OS 9 (like in Windows) you can get direct access and take over the hardware of the machine. This was shown in OS 9 when you had one application in the front in OS 9 you could starve all the other processes and use 100% of the hardware for the front-most app. In OS X you the kernel will not allow this, for good reasons and hence you have a 'layer' between hardware and the application.

This means you cannot take over the mac like you could in OS 9, although this does effect the speed of the machine it means amongst other things that when an application crashes your mac will not. As someone who tests alpha and beta software daily this was a big improvement over OS 9.

The above description is in laymans terms, one so everyone should understand, and two because it would take me to long to describing the nuances of the underbelly of Unix/OS X. Three because I am not 100% sure about the Glenda interview questions as I am going from memory and what I have experienced/know myself.

All mistakes in this post are mine ;)

#34 teflon

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 12:32 PM

thing is that if the porters give in and buy a license, it shows the middleware companies that they can charge whatever they want and eventually theyll win... that can only be bad.
Best would be if Havok started losing money because devs want the games to get ported, and Havok is the only obstacle. This would make them see sense and probably get them to broker more reasonable deals.
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#35 Frost

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 01:24 PM

Hey, maybe Apple should do a Microsoft. Buy Havok, let them do one more release, then kill them. :)
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#36 teflon

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 02:15 PM

how much is havok worth anyway? and im guessing that that might slightly alienate the other physics devs? I think it would be best to let it blow over. at least for another year. Then we can see what the mac game market looks like, and then make rash decisions in the name of apple to save it ;)
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#37 Brad Oliver

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:36 PM

edddeduck, on November 28th 2005, 09:46 AM, said:

I think I remember this interview, I believe Glenda was talking about how in OS 9 (like in Windows) you can get direct access and take over the hardware of the machine. This was shown in OS 9 when you had one application in the front in OS 9 you could starve all the other processes and use 100% of the hardware for the front-most app. In OS X you the kernel will not allow this, for good reasons and hence you have a 'layer' between hardware and the application.

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While true under Windows 98 and ME, this is no longer true with Win2k and XP - Windows now has a similar "can't monopolize all the CPU time" limitation as OSX. It's also worth stating that this has absolutely nothing to do with OpenGL.
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#38 Brad Oliver

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 03:39 PM

Hippieman, on November 28th 2005, 08:48 AM, said:

Just to play Devils Advocate, wouldn't the problem with OpenGL be Direct X?

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How so?
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#39 teflon

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:07 PM

because on the majority of games from PC are written and optimised for DirectX. So theres optimisations lost from that, as well from the switch from x86 to PPC that add up to performance loss.
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#40 Morrigan

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:19 PM

I'm guessing if "Direct X routine 117B" does some specialized thing in a PC game, the libraries for OpenGL developed by the mac game porting houses can do the exact same thing using whatever OpenGL technique is appropriate.