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A average FPS...


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#21 Tomatocow

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 08:45 PM

MightySlugMan, on November 11th 2005, 10:34 AM, said:

I would put Halo under the "average fps" category.  As good as a story/plot it told, I can't think of anything that makes it stand out.  Medal of Honor series is the same as well, but I enjoyed MoH:AA more than Halo, I think.

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Well, I liked the flying bits and the use of gravity in Halo. I think I would have like it a lot more if I didn't have to go running into that base and then come running back out. Tedious it was. Tedious. Did I mention it was tedious?

#22 Endymion

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 10:28 PM

I have Red Faction for the Mac and PS2. It is fun. I enjoyed it. Groundbreaking? And anybody who disagrees with it doesn't know anything?

Well it is groundbreakingly funny, that's for damn sure.

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A great many a hallmark of the half-assed game is present in Red Faction. A lot of these are in the story mode, but to say "the story doesn't matter to me"is about as ignorant as to dismiss someone who doesn't worship it. The typical gaming paradigm today--and for some years now--is that the single-player/story game is what brings the player, the multiplayer is what keeps him coming back. If the multiplayer isn't so good then the title sputters after its fifteen minutes. If the single-player isn't so good a great deal of owners never even bother with the multiplayer. The player who comes to it for the multiplayer first is hardcore, will be predisposed to like the game despite its faults, and not very representative of many relevant factors that influence a titles playability and what kind of ground it actually breaks.

There are lots of other games for the Mac.

There are plenty of other games with good AI.

There are several great stages in many games.

Vehicles have been all the rage for years now but on the Mac Red Faction is probably one of the earlier; this doesn't necessarily make it a progenitor as it was in development concurrently with "some other titles" which also featured weapons, but just released later. Or much later. Even though it was finished much earlier. Only a very begrudging point can be given here.

The weapons are very powerful to behold and utilise but I think it takes a swift backseat from Unreal Tournaments' which are also more versatile.

What is it about all of these things you find "groundbreaking?"

#23 Biablo

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 04:49 AM

the Battle Cat, on November 11th 2005, 01:23 AM, said:

...and it had explosives you could stick to people,



Pff, Shadow Warrior did it better. Best FPS ever.

Well, not counting Deus Ex.
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#24 Whaleman

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 05:03 AM

My list of FPS games that truly felt fresh:

Marathon
Deus Ex

Everything else is just small tweaks of everything else. Not bad games in any way... but nothing revolutionizing. Red Faction is probably one of the more original due to the destructible terrain, but it could have been used even better.

This doesn't go for shooters alone either though... you can do this with all genres and just come up with a few titles that feel original enough to be mentioned. It's how the gaming industry works. Take what works, tweak it a bit and call it your own.
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#25 Tomatocow

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 09:17 AM

I like to think of Deus Ex as a first person RPG. :happy:

#26 the Battle Cat

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 10:08 AM

Whaleman, on November 11th 2005, 03:03 AM, said:

My list of FPS games that truly felt fresh:

Marathon
Deus Ex

Everything else is just small tweaks of everything else. Not bad games in any way... but nothing revolutionizing. Red Faction is probably one of the more original due to the destructible terrain, but it could have been used even better.

This doesn't go for shooters alone either though... you can do this with all genres and just come up with a few titles that feel original enough to be mentioned. It's how the gaming industry works. Take what works, tweak it a bit and call it your own.

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I would add Damage Incorporated to your list.  While it was based on the Marathon 2 engine, it was the first true squad based shooter on the market.  You could pick out your team, walk them in specific tactical formations, assign them positions to hold and fields of fire, and you could issue orders to individuals.  It was way before it's time.
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#27 The iMac Man

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 11:19 AM

MacProject, on November 10th 2005, 09:25 PM, said:

All you Red Faction fans, what did you think about the N-GAGE version of Red Faction?

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Never played it.  We didn't make that version... that was licensed out to some other studio.
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#28 Silver Samurai

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 11:57 AM

I liked Red Faction (played it on the PS2) but average games to me are Quake etc. Don't get me wrong they are kinda fun, but they seem like twitch fests mainly. Same with UT series (which I played to death back in the day, when UT 1st came out)
I personally prefer story elements though and would love to give Deus Ex a shot sometime.

How is Red Faction on OS X Tiger? Workable? And if I went through the PS2 version is their any reason to go through it again on the Mac?
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#29 Endymion

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 03:35 PM

Askilfeasd, on November 11th 2005, 03:00 PM, said:

Wait, you just called Quake "average"? IMO that kinda' cuts you off as someone who would know what a average FPS would be, Quake was amazing.

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I think it is fair to say that the boldened word above is key to understanding Quake's place in the scheme of things. It was seminal and defining on the broadest range possible of the first-person genre and brought multiplayer to new heights--but a new game made to Quake's standards today would not be enough. It would be lost in the mix of choices. It could even be a real gem, but to only go so far as Quake does, across the breadth of bullet-points that it marked, it would still fail and be termed "average" with almost every reference.

Quake was the standard, and that its fandom and playerbase lasted as long as it did is proof that the bar it set was pretty high, but that was 1996, and games have changed and improved in other ways, in part from Quake's prodding--each game since then needed to do something else to define itself and stand out. I think that Quake is no longer the standard for a first-person game. I think Half Life is probably closer the standard now when you consider how much developer emphasis has moved towards stronger story and single-player games in recent years, and even that game would be a pretty low standard considering its age and the competition since then.

#30 NCG_Mike

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 04:20 PM

The only FPS is QuakeWorld. All the others are derivatives from it.

It's like Manic Miner... oh hang on, I mean Miner 2049er.

#31 Frost

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 07:38 PM

the Battle Cat, on November 11th 2005, 10:08 AM, said:

I would add Damage Incorporated to your list.  While it was based on the Marathon 2 engine, it was the first true squad based shooter on the market.  You could pick out your team, walk them in specific tactical formations, assign them positions to hold and fields of fire, and you could issue orders to individuals.  It was way before it's time.

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Oh hell yeah. That game didn't get half the recognition it deserved. It was like First to Fight, but with the Marathon engine. And actually, in some ways it was better than FTF. I wasted bookoo time on that game when I first got it. I ought to take another crack at it one of these days.
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#32 Eric5h5

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 08:28 PM

Frost, on November 11th 2005, 08:38 PM, said:

I wasted bookoo time on that game when I first got it.

"Beaucoup."  It's French.  As in "Eric5h5, please don't increase your post count by posting spelling/grammar corrections, merci beaucoup.  Or I shall boot you off the boards, oui?"

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#33 Tomatocow

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 09:53 PM

voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir~Posted Image

#34 Endymion

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 11:53 PM

Askilfeasd, on November 11th 2005, 04:39 PM, said:

Games which were incredible when they came out are not average.

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The entirety of your statement does not change the fact that Quake today is not cutting edge. Just like your computer that will only make limited advances nine years from now, Quake does not withstand the light that newer games shed upon it. It does stand the test of time, it is still very fun to play and technically excellent. It is also extremely limited in the face of the newer games that made big splashes since its release.

Yesterday Quake was incredible.

Today Quake is not average--it is below average.

If Quake were released today it would be rather laughed at by everyone spoiled from playing Half Life and several other titles. I am not saying that none of these "other titles" would have been as good as they are if it hadn't been for Quake. But I am saying that players moved on for a reason. The reason wasn't just "because it was old." It's because there are newer games that have improved upon it.

If you go any further in the direction you already have you might as well be saying that there have been no incredible games since Quake. I sure hope you don't think that is the case.

#35 Whaleman

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 07:37 AM

the Battle Cat, on November 11th 2005, 05:08 PM, said:

I would add Damage Incorporated to your list.  While it was based on the Marathon 2 engine, it was the first true squad based shooter on the market.  You could pick out your team, walk them in specific tactical formations, assign them positions to hold and fields of fire, and you could issue orders to individuals.  It was way before it's time.

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Good point. It did feel very special in its day. I had completely forgotten about that.
You shouldn't ask yourself such worthless questions. Aim higher. Try this: why am I here? Why do I exist, and what is my purpose in this universe?

(Answers: 'Cause you are. 'Cause you do. 'Cause I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one.)

***END MESSAGE***

#36 Eric5h5

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 08:00 AM

Tomatocow, on November 11th 2005, 10:53 PM, said:

voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir~Posted Image

Note that I exhausted virtually my entire knowledge of French with that post.  If the Babel Fish translation is accurate, though, I'm going to have to decline your request.  :blink:

Speaking of grammar, though, of course there's such a thing as an average FPS, at least theoretically.  You take all the FPS games made and divide them by two.  Half of them are below-average and the other half are above-average.  Of course, what "average" means changes with time, as more FPS games are released.

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#37 the Battle Cat

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 09:33 AM

I'm a hopeless Marathon fanboi, so I too compare even the most modern games to it.  Didn't Marathon have the first modern keyboard/mouse setup?  Until then it was keyboard control with the mouse being some sort of running tool that had you scooting your mouse back and forth the width of your desk.  I still used the mouse, it let you do some amazing manures (sic) in combination with the keyboard run keys.  Marathon even gave you up-and-down looking, Doom gave you auto-aiming for the Y-axis.  The Y-axis became the standard after Marathon, along with submersible media, NPCs and complex story > kill everything.  Wow.  Come to think of it, that's a lot of ground to be broken in a game!  Definitely above average for it's day.</fanboi>
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#38 Space_Pirate_Killer

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 05:21 PM

Eric5h5, on November 12th 2005, 07:00 AM, said:

Note that I exhausted virtually my entire knowledge of French with that post.  If the Babel Fish translation is accurate, though, I'm going to have to decline your request. 

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Why not the Translator widget?
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#39 Batcat

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 09:02 PM

Space_Pirate_Killer, on November 12th 2005, 06:21 PM, said:

Why not the Translator widget?
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...and why is Tomatocow posting the refrain from 'Lady Marmalade?' Is he channeling Patti LaBelle? :blink:

#40 Endymion

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 12:24 AM

Askilfeasd, on November 12th 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

Yes, I have not played a single good FPS besides Tron 2.0, and Call of Duty since Quake, I still compare my games besides either Marathon, Quake, or Starcraft.

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What, no Undying? No Deus Ex? No Half Life? Well if you are only gaming on your Mac I guess I can excuse that one.

Good games are pretty common, to the point that excellent ones aren't rare. Quake doesn't have enough to satisfy the most common FPS games today. This is really the whole crux of your topic. Since you seem so convinced that everything but Quake is garbage it seems you have a pretty low opinion of most games in general.