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The Perfect MMORPG


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#21 Rev-O

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 11:56 PM

Whaleman, on November 10th 2005, 10:22 AM, said:

<snip>
Because everybody should have the right to do everything in the game, the world has to stay completely static.

As a normal RPG player, this gets to you... badly. If you do something, you want it to stay done... not respawn in a minute or so. All of the sudden all you do loses its reason to be done, because you know it will be back shortly.
<snip>

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I agree 100%. For me this has a tendency to ruin the Role Playing aspect of these games... the lack of permanence. It got to me, badly. WoW is not my thing.

#22 Morrigan

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 12:28 PM

Shadowbane was cool in that you really could "change the world" by wiping other peoples' cities from the map. Of course the farming grind was the same as any, mobs respawned shortly after being cleaned out, special items were available on schedule as drops from specific mobs, etc. But, you and your friends could definitely make an impact on the politics and demographics of the game world.

#23 NeoWolf

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 01:07 PM

The problem with Shadowbane is that the game world's story and lore was severely crippled because of this, replaced with the game world politics which although dynamic, basically boiled down to typical online PvP crap. If there was role playing to it, it'd of been much cooler.

#24 Rubel

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 11:29 AM

I'm still able to somehow suspend my disbelief somewhat, and pretend that even though the mighty quest I just completed doesn't have any real lasting effect on the world around me I still have somehow achieved some great RP goals. I can't really think of a decent solution for this problem.
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#25 Morrigan

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Posted 12 November 2005 - 03:07 PM

NeoWolf, on November 11th 2005, 01:07 PM, said:

The problem with Shadowbane is that the game world's story and lore was severely crippled because of this, replaced with the game world politics which although dynamic, basically boiled down to typical online PvP crap. If there was role playing to it, it'd of been much cooler.

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While I can't disagree that RP was lacking in shadowbane, I found plenty of Loreplay on the Mourning server. The game's back story was pretty cool, but you're right, it wasn't present in the game world in enough strength. I blame that more on lack of resources at Wolfpack than lack of desire on their part.

#26 Huntn

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 03:13 PM

I've been poking around MMORPG.com which has some good info, but I'm wondering if there is a site which compares and ranks features of MMORPGs?

Morrigan, on November 4th 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

EVE Online has the answer. You don't level up, you train skills. If you want to train Missile Bombardment from rank 3 to rank 4 it might take 4 days. But you can just log off and come back 4 days later and it's done.

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Does the entire game take place in space or can you explore planets? If so are the planets huge? Do you play it?


Has anyone here played EQ2 and WoW for comparison?
Thanks!


-Hunt'n

Edited by Huntn, 03 January 2006 - 08:45 AM.


#27 hambone

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 11:41 PM

Huntn, on January 2nd 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

I've been poking around MMORPG.com which has some good info, but I'm wondering if there is a site which compares and ranks features of MMORPGs?
Does the entire game take place in space or can you explore planets? If so are the planets huge? Do you play it?
Has anyone here played EQ2 and WoW for comparison?
Thanks!
-Hunt'n

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there are two pretty good discussions about the ins and outs of EVE on the ArsTechnica.com forumshere and here. if i recall correctly, there is a discussion in the second thread specifically as to how EVE compares to other MMOs.

i for one think it looks really interesting since EVE attempts to implement two of my criteria for an interesting, dynamic MMO: 1) privately held property that can be exchanged with others; 2) a player driven world. i'd argue that these are somewhat limited implementations, but they are both realized better than in most other large-scale MMOs.

just one more of those juicy games i'll have to try when i can install XP on my IntelPowerBook. :P

as for the issue of player-driven fantasy worlds, i can only think of one way it would work with a significant degree of power and freedom given to each player: a "serialized" server. By changing the "chapter" or "episode" once every two months (and hence "resetting" and "developing" the server at the same time), you could solve a number of the classical roadblocks. first, you would regularize or even-out the leveling of all players so that no one player was massively more powerful than the others though the use of a per-episode level cap. this would lead to player-created systems of justice and rules enforced by the players themselves. second, you would be able to hook people on a more closely directed storyline and world-development thread. with its regular "issues", the game would become something of a soap opera, getting people to talk less about the minutiae of gear collection and more about what they think is coming next.

if the game became huge, the infrastructural challenges of switching almost all players over to new content at once would be difficult, as would the steady production of content with hard deadlines. but in a lot of ways i think the regular content updates WoW has pushed proved that both difficulties can be overcome.

another downside to this would be cookie-cutter players who are all at the same development point and who all have the time to gain the best gear. this could be balanced out with the game mechanics in a whole host of ways. it could also be overcome by staggering the opening of new servers, which would then each be at a different point in the plot. of course, players would know what comes next plotwise, but they would have the chance to replay it with a different class, or making different plot / development choices, etc.

#28 Huntn

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:40 AM

hambone, on January 6th 2006, 11:41 PM, said:

there are two pretty good discussions about the ins and outs of EVE on the ArsTechnica.com forumshere and here. if i recall correctly, there is a discussion in the second thread specifically as to how EVE compares to other MMOs.

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Thanks Ham! I'll check it out. :)

#29 Huntn

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 02:19 PM

Believe it or not, I started this thread when I was feeling very positive about WoW. While I'll admit that WoW, short term is a spectacular starting point, I now realize that a starting point is all it is. Long term, it needs to be much more. I've modified my first post to say "a huge world for exploring- an evolving world not static."

I just read about a new MMORPG called Seed by Runestone which is starting public beta testing in the near future. Unfortunately it's not been announced for Mac.

Despite this game not having any combat, I find it very intriguing because instead of relying on set quests that everyone gets, it relies on quest templates allowing the game and setting to evolve. Individuals are not going to see every quest in the game. I found this MMORPG.com interview to be very interesting because as someone who crashed and burned on a static world mmorpg, this seems partily to be the answer for the future for this genre.

-Hunt'n

#30 BadgerHunter

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 04:16 PM

The thing is.. its really not easy to make a world thats completely dynamic or unique. If its too dynamic you kill roleplay anyway, and often the players themselves ruin the game. If its unique for each player.. well go play a normal RPG.

For myself, I think a nice balance needs to be struck between gameplay and content. Not everyone wants to do the roleplay thing, and alot of people don't want to be in the sort of high-pressure world of end-game.

I LIKE end game in WoW. I love hunting for new gear, killing new things, and learning to work in large groups. The social aspect is great, the teamwork challenge is awesome.

#31 Dark_Archon

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:19 PM

Wow... I REALLY want EVE online. I take it the chance of a Mac port isn't good. :(
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#32 Huntn

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 07:46 PM

BadgerHunter, on January 11th 2006, 04:16 PM, said:

I LIKE end game in WoW. I love hunting for new gear, killing new things, and learning to work in large groups. The social aspect is great, the teamwork challenge is awesome.

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If your into large raids at the top end, WoW has alot to offer. I agree that you can't beat the socialization aspects of WoW. It's the part I'll miss the most.

-Hunt'n

#33 Morrigan

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 12:18 PM

Dark_Archon, on January 11th 2006, 06:19 PM, said:

Wow... I REALLY want EVE online. I take it the chance of a Mac port isn't good. :(
Nope, there will not be a mac or linux port of this one. Someone needs to make Escape Velocity Online  for Macs :)

#34 Whaleman

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 12:28 PM

Morrigan, on January 12th 2006, 07:18 PM, said:

Nope, there will not be a mac or linux port of this one. Someone needs to make Escape Velocity Online  for Macs :)

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Well, Vendetta Online is a good attempt in 3D... but I'd prefer a 2D EV style MMO too.
You shouldn't ask yourself such worthless questions. Aim higher. Try this: why am I here? Why do I exist, and what is my purpose in this universe?

(Answers: 'Cause you are. 'Cause you do. 'Cause I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one.)

***END MESSAGE***

#35 Huntn

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 04:50 PM

Is there any MMO present or future (Mac or PC) that avoids the static world trap?

-Hunt'n

#36 Whaleman

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 05:34 PM

Well, Shadowbane (as mentioned before) do kind of this.... and I never played enough Vendetta to see if it did as well.
You shouldn't ask yourself such worthless questions. Aim higher. Try this: why am I here? Why do I exist, and what is my purpose in this universe?

(Answers: 'Cause you are. 'Cause you do. 'Cause I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one.)

***END MESSAGE***

#37 Skyfox

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 06:32 PM

Whaleman, on January 12th 2006, 09:28 AM, said:

Well, Vendetta Online is a good attempt in 3D... but I'd prefer a 2D EV style MMO too.

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Vendetta has a long way to go. It shows a lot of promise in the way that the devs listen to the players, its just that their small team takes a very long time to make updates. *cough*graphics?*cough*

EVE is awesome in the way that it's very realistic in economy and setting and all that. The awesome graphics don't hurt either. However, it can be a huge time-sink and you can expect to spend quite a fair bit of time mining astroids and running trade missions.

If only it worked on mac... Ah well, maybe in two years when it comes time to get a new laptop i'll scoop up a nice windows box, then hack it to run mac.

#38 Huntn

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 08:42 AM

Whaleman, on January 12th 2006, 05:34 PM, said:

Well, Shadowbane (as mentioned before) do kind of this.... and I never played enough Vendetta to see if it did as well.

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In the scheme of MMO's, how would you rate Shadowbane overall? I've started a download of the free Mac Trial.

Rubel, on November 7th 2005, 10:39 AM, said:

I remember seeing a pack of Night Elves riding on their big white kitties down the Gold Road in the Southern Barrens. I thought, wow, some crazy Alliance players looking to stir up trouble. Good thing they can't touch my unflagged self! Then, as  they charged over and stomped me into the ground, I realized that they were actually rare NPCs! damn you, Outriders! If my skills were honed to a jitter on a PvP server, I would never have been so confident.

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Sorry for the late response. That is quite funny! Like the time after an update when I rode over to that horde fort in Eastern Arathi and being surprised by all of the horde npcs that didn't used to be there. The challenge was getting my corpse out of there (without rezzing at the angel). :)

#39 Whaleman

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:01 AM

Huntn, on January 13th 2006, 03:42 PM, said:

In the scheme of MMO's, how would you rate Shadowbane overall? I've started a download of the free Mac Trial.

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Seeing how I generally hate MMOs and think that even WoW could have been made a better RPG experience if made as an offline game with a multiplayer component (like instances, battlegrounds and party questing), I can't say I'm the right guy to rate it. If you want a dynamic MMO with heavy PvPs, I guess there's not much like it... but if you want questing and non-griefed adventures... it's definitely the wrong game. I like the class system of SB a lot more than the one in WoW though, since it's more free and possible to experiment with, much like D&D classes... and the artwork isn't too bad... but damn the game lacks goals outside of PvP, so it's hard to enjoy an otherwise good RPG engine.
You shouldn't ask yourself such worthless questions. Aim higher. Try this: why am I here? Why do I exist, and what is my purpose in this universe?

(Answers: 'Cause you are. 'Cause you do. 'Cause I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one.)

***END MESSAGE***

#40 Huntn

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:55 AM

Whaleman, on January 13th 2006, 09:01 AM, said:

If you want a dynamic MMO with heavy PvPs, I guess there's not much like it... but if you want questing and non-griefed adventures... it's definitely the wrong game. I like the class system of SB a lot more than the one in WoW though, since it's more free and possible to experiment with, much like D&D classes... and the artwork isn't too bad... but damn the game lacks goals outside of PvP, so it's hard to enjoy an otherwise good RPG engine.

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Oops. Don't you know I want it all?? :D That (PvP emphasis) does not sound what I'm looking for. Thanks for the info!

-Hunt'n