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#21 Space_Pirate_Killer

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 07:36 AM

I see. Why would that be?
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#22 RandyWang

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 07:41 AM

1) Enclosures for hard drives aren't free.

2) External storage comes on top of what's already in the system. As such, there's still a very definite limit to the amount of storage available for a machine, given that the PowerMac only has three FireWire ports - meaning, in short, you can only add so much storage before you need to buy an entirely new system. By limiting internal storage to only two drives, Apple's managed to limit the maximum storage-per-machine to the point much lower than that of any other manufacturer of this class, substantially lowering their value as a video editing platform.

I notice, too, that you've yet to reply to the rest of my above post. Since it was edited, I thought I should remind you that it exists.
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#23 Space_Pirate_Killer

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 07:45 AM

You mean this?

RandyWang, on June 25th 2005, 06:31 AM, said:

Let's take this further: How can Apple sell "the best" hardware, when they don't even support the latest versions of GeForce and X800 series of graphics cards? I find it hard to believe that a PowerMac is somehow "better" than a machine a much faster graphics card and a greater internal storage capacity. And multiple optical drives. And a considerably faster processor (dual dual-core Opterons, perchance?).

They simply don't compare.

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Well its up to Nvidia and ATI to supply those video card to Apple isn't it?
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#24 RandyWang

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 07:49 AM

Space_Pirate_Killer, on June 26th 2005, 12:45 AM, said:

You mean this?

Well its up to Nvidia and ATI to supply those video card to Apple isn't it?

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Yes, with the real pity being that Apple - as a result - isn't capable of shipping those cards in it's hardware. The blame is irrelevant, because Apple does not sell hardware equipped with the most powerful graphics acceleration currently available, nor even anything approaching it (the 6800 Ultra is already aging compared to the latest releases from both ATI and NVidia).

So they do not sell computers with the best graphics hardware available. That's two counts on which Apple is not "the best", and I'm going to bed.
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#25 Endymion

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 08:11 AM

RandyWang, on June 25th 2005, 05:47 AM, said:

Hell, there's a lot of things their hardware doesn't support that other manufacturers do *cough*PCI-E*cough*

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What does this look like to you? It doesn't look like AGP to me. It could easily be a slow 1x/2x PCI Express, but there you go.

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just look at the market-leading GeForce 7800 GTX, which doesn't come in an AGP version

There is every reason to believe that there may be an AGP 7800 card with time. It is not as if the GPU is incapable of being used with AGP. It is not as if there would be no customers for such a card, even for the PC.

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External storage comes on top of what's already in the system. As such, there's still a very definite limit to the amount of storage available for a machine, given that the PowerMac only has three FireWire ports - meaning, in short, you can only add so much storage before you need to buy an entirely new system.

Two problems here: your griping about storage space internally is purely a consumer's gripe, only the pros need the vast amounts of storage that you speak of and there is no way that something quite as vast as what is being discussed will be an internal solution. There ARE pros who would want more internal storage, but they aren't going to gripe quite so much about being pushed to getting out of sub-terabyte level in an external solution, trust me they're thrilled when that happens. Second, I haven't seen a single FireWire external enclosure yet that did not include two FireWire ports. See, one is for connecting to the computer, the other is connecting to another enclosure. You can keep going down the line like this with more than three FireWire drives all connected to one FireWire port on the computer, so there's your consumer solution to more storage. Did you honestly not know that?

#26 Siriusfox

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:56 AM

RandyWang said:

You mean, even after I've invested US$4500+ on my bitchin' fast video-editing rig, I still need to buy external hardware just to make up for it should have supported to begin with? Sorry, but that doesn't sound like "the best hardware around" to me.
YES YOU DO! Companies sell Video Development packages, it usually has a 1TB-15TB RAID stack, A G5, final cut pro, and a few other things.

Tell me if you find a Windows with every single capabitly on your list at any price. Strait from the box. You can't do it.

There will almost never be a time were you can make a feature length film with what you get. Apple expects people who want to do that to buy a few PowerMac G5s, a HUGE Hard Drive Stack, and a multi client package of Final Cut Pro.

There aren't to many films that have been made by one person. If all you get is the Computer. Stick with 15-45 minute shorts. Using that drive in your computer.

And my first comment was a general comment. How many Windows using friends do we have with a computer that was more than $400. I show them this Mac. If they don't like it then they can put windows on it, and still have the ability to switch back to a better OS. Or have better specs then they would have on another computer they would buy.
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#27 bobbob

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 03:12 PM

joefox, on June 25th 2005, 09:56 AM, said:

Tell me if you find a Windows with every single capabitly on your list at any price. Strait from the box. You can't do it.

What list? If I have a clue, I can pick out parts at a local white box place and have them put it together. For starters I would probably pick out something with SATA2 and lots of ports, not Apple's slightly borked SATA1 with less ports. Definitely not expensive drives to hang off Apple's borked FW800.

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Apple expects people who want to do that to buy a few PowerMac G5s, a HUGE Hard Drive Stack, and a multi client package of Final Cut Pro.

Uh, yeah, because it's in everyone's best interest to throw money at Apple for all the extras they probably don't need.

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If all you get is the Computer. Stick with 15-45 minute shorts. Using that drive in your computer.

You should sell that to :-( Despair, Inc.

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Or have better specs then they would have on another computer they would buy.

What kind of straw man is that? Buy what, from who, with what budget? There are definitely better specs out there than any Mac.

#28 RandyWang

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 06:20 PM

Endymion, on June 26th 2005, 01:11 AM, said:

What does this look like to you? It doesn't look like AGP to me. It could easily be a slow 1x/2x PCI Express, but there you go.

Those look like the PCI-X slots that the G5 has always shipped with.

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There is every reason to believe that there may be an AGP 7800 card with time. It is not as if the GPU is incapable of being used with AGP. It is not as if there would be no customers for such a card, even for the PC.

And even then, Apple wouldn't sell machines with it. It's a funny ole world, no?

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Two problems here: your griping about storage space internally is purely a consumer's gripe, only the pros need the vast amounts of storage that you speak of

I was under the impression the higher-end PowerMacs were professional machines.

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Second, I haven't seen a single FireWire external enclosure yet that did not include two FireWire ports. See, one is for connecting to the computer, the other is connecting to another enclosure. You can keep going down the line like this with more than three FireWire drives all connected to one FireWire port on the computer, so there's your consumer solution to more storage. Did you honestly not know that?

View Post


Would you daisy chain harddrives across your desk like that, just to make up for space you should have had in the first place?

Further, how fast do you think the FireWire spec is, if you think it could keep up with such a load?

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Tell me if you find a Windows with every single capabitly on your list at any price. Strait from the box. You can't do it.

1. Windows is an Operating system, not a computer.

2. Try the IBM online store, sometime. You might learn something.

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Or have better specs then they would have on another computer they would buy.

Because we all know how blazing fast the PowerMac's default GeForce FX 5200 Ultra is compared to, say, the 7800 GTX...

I think you realise that Apple's computers are not, and probably won't ever be, better spec'ed than any whitebox PC. The six-month to one-year update cycles on Apple's hardware mean that they inevitable lag behind the competition in terms of hardware, and even when they switch to Intel I simply cannot see them dropping a business model like that.
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#29 Endymion

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 08:22 PM

RandyWang, on June 25th 2005, 07:20 PM, said:

Those look like the PCI-X slots that the G5 has always shipped with.

If the one offset brown slot looks like PCI-X to you then I guess you haven't seen too many PCI Express slots.

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And even then, Apple wouldn't sell machines with it. It's a funny ole world, no?

And you know this, sitting in on Apple's design boards like this. How nice of you to inform us.

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I was under the impression the higher-end PowerMacs were professional machines.

They are. That's why the RAID is available for them.

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Would you daisy chain harddrives across your desk like that, just to make up for space you should have had in the first place?

Do I have the funds for a RAID? Do I have the sense to put a 400GB SATA disk there internally?

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Further, how fast do you think the FireWire spec is, if you think it could keep up with such a load?

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I'm really starting to question your technical knowledge. FireWire is 400 and 800Mb/sec. What do you think RAID speeds are and how do you suppose SATA keeps up for anybody who needs it?

Your gripes are not the big issues you think they are, dude.

#30 Dark_Archon

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 09:22 PM

Lets try to tone this down a little. We don't need another shouting match.
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#31 Dark_Archon

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 09:44 PM

Back on topic...
These machines are meant for developers, and Apple doesn't seem to care what the developers do with these computers. I wonder what they will do with a consumer machine. The normal consumer who pays a premium for an Apple computer probably won't install MS Windows on it. Apple's market share is growing, and that means more people switch to Macs than away from em, so Apple doesn't really have much to fear. Some people might dual boot, but most people won't switch just because they can install Windows on their machine.
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#32 Siriusfox

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:05 PM

bobbob said:

What list?
I just said the requirements that he was dissing the PowerMac G5's on.

bobbob said:

If I have a clue, I can pick out parts at a local white box place and have them put it together. For starters I would probably pick out something with SATA2 and lots of ports, not Apple's slightly borked SATA1 with less ports. Definitely not expensive drives to hang off Apple's borked FW800.
Where? What company? I will trust you that some company does, but this sounds odd.

bobbob said:

Uh, yeah, because it's in everyone's best interest to throw money at Apple for all the extras they probably don't need.
If you want to develop a full length film, yes. You are going to feel like you are throwing money in the toilet. But you will be happy you had the space latter on.

bobbob said:

You should sell that to :-( Despair, Inc.
That's what you get from only iMovie.

bobbob said:

What kind of straw man is that? Buy what, from who, with what budget? There are definitely better specs out there than any Mac.
I said MY PC USING FRIENDS.
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#33 Dark_Archon

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:16 PM

Like I said before, tone it down. Don't make tBC yell at you for ruining a perfectly good thread. The arguing is accomplishing nothing besides pissing each other off more. If you want to have a flame war, please do it somewhere else.
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#34 masahs

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:50 PM

From Apple insider

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#35 Arenzera

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 11:32 PM

RandyWang, on June 25th 2005, 10:49 PM, said:

Don't they already say they have the best technology, the most advanced features? If they don't put PCI-E into their flagship computers right now, then I see no particular reason for them to be interested in putting it into what will be - for marketing purposes - exactly the same machine.

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Because that would require them to re-design the motherboards of their computers... also PCI-E is pretty new... give Apple a bit of time, they're not as big as whoever designs Dell's motherboards.

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#36 bobbob

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 11:41 PM

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Where? What company? I will trust you that some company does, but this sounds odd.

You pick the parts, and pay them to put it together. Is that odd? For example, NCIX does it locally and online, but of course you might have to actually know what you want. I usually just put it together myself. Dell also has better BTO options than Apple, especially when it comes to drives. The move to Intel doesn't imply any change at all, except it might free up a bit of wasted space formerly used for CPU cooling.

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If you want to develop a full length film, yes....
But you will be happy you had the space latter on...
That's what you get from only iMovie.

I'm missing something, here. You're not saying that Apple competes with anyone else's multidrive RAID on price or performance, and that I should be happy that Apple's offering suck so much? I think Apple should fit a few more connectors and bays in their gargantuan PowerMac case, and then you wouldn't have to appologise for them. Intel makes some decent motherboards for this, and Apple should pick up a few.

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I said MY PC USING FRIENDS.

Some people might not care about spending more for less, but my friends are hobbyists who record hours of film per month with no budget. I wouldn't foist a Mac on them if I knew there were cheaper, better options, and there are. Apple's definitely got some problems with its motherboard chipset, no Macs have decent expandibility, and their BTO 'upgrades' are almost full retail plus the cost of the base option. Where's the beef?

#37 zapranoth

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 12:57 AM

Y'all could flame this out in email, you know, and that'd be perfectly fine.

(I think this thread could be cited as one of the reasons these dev machines were supposed to be kept under wraps and not scrutinized as the tea leaves that they are.  This isn't even a real flame war.. it's just a sort of technoweenie's palmistry.)

(edit:  I consider myself to be a sort of technoweenie, of low order.  So that word isn't meant as invective.)

Edited by zapranoth, 26 June 2005 - 01:02 AM.

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#38 the Battle Cat

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 09:58 AM

The IMG Forum welcomes debate, even heated debate.  What is not welcome is taking the debate to a personal level.  So far this has been a pretty good debate and an interesting read.  Keep in mind though that it IS a good debate because you are arguing the issues instead of the personalities.  Although words are naturally derived from the personalities of the debaters and is perceived as writing style, aiming ones comments at a person rather than his ideas is when the debate is over.  

I understand your comment zapranoth, I think all of us here are technoweenies to some degree, and we naturally gravitate to this forum because our mutual interest is games. I felt a comment here was needed by me as I see some people getting a little antsy about the tone of the debate and I take zaps comment as another such observation.

As long as the participants avoid the pitfalls and continue to explore the facts of the argument as they see them, then this is a good debate.  Just keep it "a clean fight" is all I ask.  Keep this in mind though, you will most likely never change your opponents mind, it is the minds of the readers you should be aiming for.
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#39 Siriusfox

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 10:13 AM

bobbob said:

You pick the parts, and pay them to put it together. Is that odd? For example, NCIX does it locally and online, but of course you might have to actually know what you want. I usually just put it together myself. Dell also has better BTO options than Apple, especially when it comes to drives. The move to Intel doesn't imply any change at all, except it might free up a bit of wasted space formerly used for CPU cooling.
I never thought of the CPU cooling thing but that is not were I saw this debate going. So some companies can do that, but could they make a full length feature film. Not likely, possibly but not likely. The point I was originally making was RandyWang had some "po-poing" the G5 for not being able to just with the G5 make a full feature length film. The points you have made I see nothing to debate on so, thats out of the way.

bobbob said:

I'm missing something, here. You're not saying that Apple competes with anyone else's multidrive RAID on price or performance, and that I should be happy that Apple's offering suck so much? I think Apple should fit a few more connectors and bays in their gargantuan PowerMac case, and then you wouldn't have to apologize for them. Intel makes some decent motherboards for this, and Apple should pick up a few.
You kind of lost me, I think that the point of what whatever was going on here is lost so lets move on.

bobbob said:

Some people might not care about spending more for less, but my friends are hobbyists who record hours of film per month with no budget. I wouldn't foist a Mac on them if I knew there were cheaper, better options, and there are. Apple's definitely got some problems with its motherboard chipset, no Macs have decent expandability, and their BTO 'upgrades' are almost full retail plus the cost of the base option. Where's the beef?
This has no concern anymore. I was only referring to the limited budget and narrow-mindedness of MY PC using friends. But that is very-much beside the point.
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#40 RandyWang

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 08:57 PM

Endymion, on June 26th 2005, 01:22 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

There is every reason to believe that there may be an AGP 7800 card with time. It is not as if the GPU is incapable of being used with AGP. It is not as if there would be no customers for such a card, even for the PC.
And even then, Apple wouldn't sell machines with it. It's a funny ole world, no?
And you know this, sitting in on Apple's design boards like this. How nice of you to inform us.

Cheap shot. I don't need to be an executive at Apple to recognise the likelihood of them introducing a major shift in business strategy simply because they're starting to move away from the PowerPC.

Consider this: Apple's run it's business in exactly the same way for a very long time. Products are upgraded perhaps once every six-to-twelve months, with no roadmap for the future given and as little warning of impending updates as possible. Products are not updated weekly or rapidly, and so we have Apple's renowned product stagnation. The PowerMac hasn't had it's top-of-the-line graphics card upgraded since it's first revision in June 2004, and in that time we've seen a huge increase in the power of graphics technology, to the point where new cards such as the 7800 GTX utterly thrash last year's fastest cards.

Apple may, or may not, include the 7800 in it's upgraded PowerMacs. It's irrelevant whether they do. The crux of the matter is, however, that Apple's own business strategy has forced to it to stay behind the game constantly - it simply isn't possible to own a PowerMac with the fastest graphics available in a modern PC, nor will it ever be.

Let me rephrase that: except for a few short weeks every now and again, Apple's hardware is not the fastest and best available, and it's been that way for decades.

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I'm really starting to question your technical knowledge.

Because that's not a personal attack at all... :glare:

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FireWire is 400 and 800Mb/sec. What do you think RAID speeds are and how do you suppose SATA keeps up for anybody who needs it?

Suppose you've daisy-chained 16 FireWire drives together (the maximum allowed by the spec). The maximum throughput of each hard drive, then, is 3.25 megabytes per second - well below the minimum standard expected for video editing.

The larger problem here is that by daisychaining that many drives together - a solution you're suggesting is perfectly acceptable - you'll be stuck with 72 metres of FireWire cable. That's a lot of cable, and I'm surprised that you'd be willing to have that much crap on your desk when you could spread the same storage between a few extra G5s, simulatenously used for editing by members of a larger team.

You shouldn't have to invest in a RAID when an extra two drive-slots would probably solve, or at least alleviate, the problem.

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The point I was originally making was RandyWang had some "po-poing" the G5 for not being able to just with the G5 make a full feature length film.

You're attacking an example I made to support a larger argument. The limited internal expansion of the PowerMacs was an example of how Apple's hardware is not the best in the industry.

With that in mind, feel free to respond to the argument itself. I, myself, am not particularly interested in an example-based debate.

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Just keep it "a clean fight" is all I ask.

Yeah, no need for another "Help RandyWang get himself banned" thread :ph34r:
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