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World of Warcraft - a MUST for Mac gamers


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#21 Gafgarion

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 07:40 PM

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We don't need to agree.  :wink:  

Some tend to flog the dead horse more than others is all.

Indeed, in the end it is rather pointless to debate a video game tooth-and-nail... We can leave that for the political topics :)

#22 almondblight

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 07:59 PM

I think the problem for a lot of us is "what is the ~$150 a year going towards?"  If it is a static world and PvP just means 60 characters bashing each other, it seems like a lot of the game could be done, and done better, as a solo-rpg with online capabilities (a big Diablo II).  Without being able to change the world there doesn't seem to be much of a need for persistant world servers other than seeing MoooooMoooo the Tauren run past me while I'm collecting 9,000 razormane teeth.  I don't really feel like paying $15 a month, or even $10 a month just so I can see an entire world full of people level grinding.

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 08:56 PM

I think the perfect MMORPG for me would allow players to affect the world in minor ways. For example, my character would be an arsonist. Now that would be cool.

I guess the idea method would be an overall balance between static and dynamic gameplay. If you had totally dynamic worlds all the time, it would be very possible for one faction to conquer the entire planet, and then only have guerilla insurgents to fight back. Eventually, the power structure would collapse, and anarchy would reign until some sort of factions would set themselves up again. Actually, that would be pretty cool. Now I don't know what to think. It would be neat to have an entire continent wage war on another one, with thousands of players on either side, and the battle spreading across hundreds of digital kilometers. That would be an epic battle.
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#24 Malus121

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 12:25 AM

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And obviously, with over 200k registrations on day one, there are a lot of people who feel the same way.

There are a lot of people that like Windows, too. What's your point?

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And no, I don't need to change the world. To go back a few years, I used to log into Multi-User Dungeons almost daily. We couldn't change the world and it made it no less addicting. In fact, it was much like EQ in that you'd typically spend a couple hours killing the same crap over and over for gear and XP.
I don't know about you, but I always played MUDs that allowed me to affect the world and even the ones that didn't were tolerable because they were free.

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What draws me to WoW is the thousands of quests, many of which have been changed or "unlocked" in retail. Never are you stuck doing the same old thing repeatedly, unless of course you want constrain yourself that way.

Oh joy, the thousands of quests... the majority of the which are the same.

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As for Shadowbane: no thanks. Until you mentioned it, I hadn't heard a good word about it.
Have you even played it? Shadowbane is, despite its bugs, well-regarded in the PvP community because it was one of the first games to ever feature real NvN PvP.
Shadowbane gave real meaning to PvP and didn't bother with boring, pointless quests and leveling-grinding. The carebears were very turned off to it... But since you're all about "guild wars", it seems right up your alley.
Ahahahhahahahhahahahahahahha
Shadowbane is a freaking joke.  Shadowbane has a MUCH worse level grind than WOW.  Granted in Shadowbane you level MUCH faster, HOWEVER ALL you do is kill the SAME popsnizzle OVER AND OVER.  It gets so damn tedious.  Not to mention once you get high level,  For every hour you spend PVPing you spend 3 farming gold just so you can afford it.  Oh and did i mention the games buggy as hell.  For the longest time the Mac client couldn't even handle large scale PVP with out either crashing or going down to 1-3FPS(this even happened on the fastest macs availible at the time).  While Shadowbane may have been a good concept in the end it was killed by the fact that there were no resources to protect/fight over(other than areas to farm), the game balance sucked hard(certain classes/disciplanes were alomst worthless) and nothing else to do besides farm gold and PVP.
Unless Shadowbane has come A LONG way since the last time i played it, its nowhere near the quality level or fun factor of WOW.  Not to say its all bad mind you I did have some fun with it, its just, well, out of its leauge...

Oh just FYI.... I don't think WOW is perfect(far from it in fact).  The grouping system needs major work, right now you typically gain more exp killing mobs your level by yourself than killing powrefull elite mobs grouped with your friends.  IMO this makes no sense in a game where "Massive Multiplayer" are two of the key words.  Also I will admit the game could use more character customization options(picking my own stats would have been nice thanks...).  I will admit those are two areas Shadowbane actually excels in.  Well it would excel in the last one if they ever got the damn thing balanced anyway....
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#25 hambone

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 02:11 AM

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I think the problem for a lot of us is "what is the ~$150 a year going towards?"  If it is a static world and PvP just means 60 characters bashing each other, it seems like a lot of the game could be done, and done better, as a solo-rpg with online capabilities (a big Diablo II).

a lot of people look at this game mechanistically. which is fine, because MMOs tend to lend themselves to that perspective at first glance.

but when you've got a world as lovingly and handcrafted as is WoW, you've got to step back a little bit and take a look at it qualitatively.

i like playing WoW because it really is a world to explore. i do a lot of stopping and just looking around, admiring the views and the work that went into creating such an amazing little place. i like to stop and chat with people, ask them where they are from, what they need, whatever.

have you ever stopped and just enjoyed the dynamic lighting? have you ever thought about how freakin well done the color palletes are? stopped to think how good the building architecture is, or how totally seamless the landscapes are? you can look at the game like a machine if you want to, but there are other levels to enjoy it on as well.

i probably only spend half my time killing stuff or going on quests. the other half, i'm just enjoying the world as toy. and a fun toy it is.

#26 Whaleman

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 04:37 AM

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I think the problem for a lot of us is "what is the ~$150 a year going towards?"  If it is a static world and PvP just means 60 characters bashing each other, it seems like a lot of the game could be done, and done better, as a solo-rpg with online capabilities (a big Diablo II).

a lot of people look at this game mechanistically. which is fine, because MMOs tend to lend themselves to that perspective at first glance.

but when you've got a world as lovingly and handcrafted as is WoW, you've got to step back a little bit and take a look at it qualitatively.

i like playing WoW because it really is a world to explore. i do a lot of stopping and just looking around, admiring the views and the work that went into creating such an amazing little place. i like to stop and chat with people, ask them where they are from, what they need, whatever.

have you ever stopped and just enjoyed the dynamic lighting? have you ever thought about how freakin well done the color palletes are? stopped to think how good the building architecture is, or how totally seamless the landscapes are? you can look at the game like a machine if you want to, but there are other levels to enjoy it on as well.

i probably only spend half my time killing stuff or going on quests. the other half, i'm just enjoying the world as toy. and a fun toy it is.

So basically you want to pay $15 a month for a vacation tour in a digitally created world? I know the world is beautiful, but since this is almost exactly what I want to do, I don't see the need of an MMO to do it. Had they made it a normal style RPG, I could enjoy the world all I wanted, when I wanted, without having to pay extra for it every month I wanted to do it.

And to spin on what Malus said. Grouping in WoW is really odd. I often find it faster to level up going solo on easy quests than grouping up for the harder ones. And I really hate that when I group up with random people for a quest, a majority of the members would have been kicked out of #IMG for disrespect of the english language.
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#27 DaveyJJ

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 05:54 AM

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For example, my character would be an arsonist. Now that would be cool.

Err, OK. Security!!!! :-)

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#28 placebo

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 09:14 AM

As it stands right now, World of Warcraft would be just as fun as a single-player game. I know there's PVP, I know there's parties and guilds, but the vast majority of the gameplay is soloing.

And the fact that key enemies respawn isn't stupid, but it completely kills the suspension of disbelief in the game when everyone is asking on General, "When does Kreenig Snarlsnout spawn????"

I think the better approach would have been for quests to say "Kill one Razormane leader", and those leaders would spawn with randomly generated names, so instead of waiting for a single enemy to respawn and have it be cheesy, it could be significantly less cheesy because it would make you believe that there were multiple leaders, with different names.

I think that approach would have worked better.

#29 Tetsuya

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 09:49 AM

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I think the problem for a lot of us is "what is the ~$150 a year going towards?"  If it is a static world and PvP just means 60 characters bashing each other, it seems like a lot of the game could be done, and done better, as a solo-rpg with online capabilities (a big Diablo II).

a lot of people look at this game mechanistically. which is fine, because MMOs tend to lend themselves to that perspective at first glance.

but when you've got a world as lovingly and handcrafted as is WoW, you've got to step back a little bit and take a look at it qualitatively.

i like playing WoW because it really is a world to explore. i do a lot of stopping and just looking around, admiring the views and the work that went into creating such an amazing little place. i like to stop and chat with people, ask them where they are from, what they need, whatever.

have you ever stopped and just enjoyed the dynamic lighting? have you ever thought about how freakin well done the color palletes are? stopped to think how good the building architecture is, or how totally seamless the landscapes are? you can look at the game like a machine if you want to, but there are other levels to enjoy it on as well.

i probably only spend half my time killing stuff or going on quests. the other half, i'm just enjoying the world as toy. and a fun toy it is.

So basically you want to pay $15 a month for a vacation tour in a digitally created world? I know the world is beautiful, but since this is almost exactly what I want to do, I don't see the need of an MMO to do it. Had they made it a normal style RPG, I could enjoy the world all I wanted, when I wanted, without having to pay extra for it every month I wanted to do it.

And to spin on what Malus said. Grouping in WoW is really odd. I often find it faster to level up going solo on easy quests than grouping up for the harder ones. And I really hate that when I group up with random people for a quest, a majority of the members would have been kicked out of #IMG for disrespect of the english language.

What fantasy world are you living in where  you think that a game where Jimmy Joe Bob over in California can completely alter the world you play in, making it unfamiliar and unplayabe, is a good idea?

Also, do you even begin to have a concept of how incredibly hard it would to write code that took something lke that into account?

It just isnt feasible, Whale.  

Either you like MMO's, of which WoW is probably the best one ive played, or you don't.  

Stop complaining about them not making the game something that isnt possible to make.

T

#30 almondblight

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 10:55 AM

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have you ever stopped and just enjoyed the dynamic lighting? have you ever thought about how freakin well done the color palletes are? stopped to think how good the building architecture is, or how totally seamless the landscapes are? you can look at the game like a machine if you want to, but there are other levels to enjoy it on as well.

Sure, it's fun to explore, but you can do that just as well (I would say better) in a single player RPG, and you wouldn't have to pay a monthly fee.  So, what's the point of the persistant world?  Paying monthly just so there hordes of other tourists waiting in line for the same attractions?  And then advertising how great the game is because there are non-MMORPG dungeons?  All the reasons for why the game is so great seem to be things that could be done better in a traditional singleplayer/multiplayer game.

#31 blackphoenix

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 10:56 AM

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I think the problem for a lot of us is "what is the ~$150 a year going towards?"  If it is a static world and PvP just means 60 characters bashing each other, it seems like a lot of the game could be done, and done better, as a solo-rpg with online capabilities (a big Diablo II).

a lot of people look at this game mechanistically. which is fine, because MMOs tend to lend themselves to that perspective at first glance.

but when you've got a world as lovingly and handcrafted as is WoW, you've got to step back a little bit and take a look at it qualitatively.

i like playing WoW because it really is a world to explore. i do a lot of stopping and just looking around, admiring the views and the work that went into creating such an amazing little place. i like to stop and chat with people, ask them where they are from, what they need, whatever.

have you ever stopped and just enjoyed the dynamic lighting? have you ever thought about how freakin well done the color palletes are? stopped to think how good the building architecture is, or how totally seamless the landscapes are? you can look at the game like a machine if you want to, but there are other levels to enjoy it on as well.

i probably only spend half my time killing stuff or going on quests. the other half, i'm just enjoying the world as toy. and a fun toy it is.

So basically you want to pay $15 a month for a vacation tour in a digitally created world? I know the world is beautiful, but since this is almost exactly what I want to do, I don't see the need of an MMO to do it. Had they made it a normal style RPG, I could enjoy the world all I wanted, when I wanted, without having to pay extra for it every month I wanted to do it.

And to spin on what Malus said. Grouping in WoW is really odd. I often find it faster to level up going solo on easy quests than grouping up for the harder ones. And I really hate that when I group up with random people for a quest, a majority of the members would have been kicked out of #IMG for disrespect of the english language.

What fantasy world are you living in where  you think that a game where Jimmy Joe Bob over in California can completely alter the world you play in, making it unfamiliar and unplayabe, is a good idea?

Also, do you even begin to have a concept of how incredibly hard it would to write code that took something lke that into account?

It just isnt feasible, Whale.  

Either you like MMO's, of which WoW is probably the best one ive played, or you don't.  

Stop complaining about them not making the game something that isnt possible to make.

T

I think the point is that all he infrastructure and high monthly fees are wasted. There is no reason why you need that much money for a game thats mostly static and is pretty much all soloing.

#32 Whaleman

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 10:59 AM

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What fantasy world are you living in where  you think that a game where Jimmy Joe Bob over in California can completely alter the world you play in, making it unfamiliar and unplayabe, is a good idea?

Also, do you even begin to have a concept of how incredibly hard it would to write code that took something lke that into account?

It just isnt feasible, Whale.  

Either you like MMO's, of which WoW is probably the best one ive played, or you don't.  

Stop complaining about them not making the game something that isnt possible to make.  

T

If you read my suggestions, it's all possible, because I suggest the game would be better as a non MMO. And in that reality you can change the world.

I see the game gain no advantages from being a MMO, but losing a lot.

The game has several drawbacks that people seems to accept, "because it's an MMO"., And that's completely silly.

"Hey guys! Let's make the game less dynamic, less advanced, and remove a lot of stuff that would make it absolutely superb. Instead we add the possibility for grief play, endless respawn waiting, the options for some asses to completely ruin the experience and then we charge a monthly fee for it!"

Just brilliant.

And no, I don't like MMORPGs, I hate them. Because they usually stand against everything a good RPG is. And I agree that as far as MMOs go, WoW is the only one I could stand. I will get it, and I will play it, but I will never forgive or forget its shortcomings that keeps it from becoming on of the best RPGs ever. I could easily have paid $200 for a RPG of WoW's magnitude. And it looks like that exactly what I will end up doing anyway, because they made it a fricken MMO. And better yet, to make it available for the casual gamer, they removed the few advantages a MMO could offer, and that is a dynamic world where you are just a pawn.






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#33 machineman

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 11:48 AM

It boils down to this: It's a game, so is IT FUN? The clear answer is YES.

All of the critique about decisions made in the creation of the game have nothing to do with it's ability to spend time in and have fun playing!  

For those of you "game designers" making these comments, please make the improvements in the next release of YOUR mmorpg and let us know when it launches...


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#34 Joe M.

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 11:56 AM

One hasn't played very far into the game if one finds "soloing" faster than grouping up for anything but the first 15-20 levels.

#35 Gafgarion

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 11:58 AM

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Ahahahhahahahhahahahahahahha
Shadowbane is a freaking joke.  Shadowbane has a MUCH worse level grind than WOW.  Granted in Shadowbane you level MUCH faster, HOWEVER ALL you do is kill the SAME s**t OVER AND OVER.  It gets so damn tedious.
Huh? You can max your level in a matter of hours. It's not tedious at all. Plus, consider you kill the same exact monsters over and over again in WoW too.

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Not to mention once you get high level,  For every hour you spend PVPing you spend 3 farming gold just so you can afford it.

This is absolutely wrong. Have you even played the game?
I have not farmed in a good 9 months.

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Oh and did i mention the games buggy as hell.  For the longest time the Mac client couldn't even handle large scale PVP with out either crashing or going down to 1-3FPS(this even happened on the fastest macs availible at the time).
Again wrong. I have been able to participate in large scale PvP since beta without problem, I just didn't expect stellar graphical performance.

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While Shadowbane may have been a good concept in the end it was killed by the fact that there were no resources to protect/fight over(other than areas to farm),

What about rune spawns, mines, cities and territories?

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the game balance sucked hard(certain classes/disciplanes were alomst worthless)
Eh? Obviously you didn't play since beta or early retail. This was a myth that was quickly dispelled. Remember the whole thing about melees being worthless? They weren't worthless, everyone built them gimp because they didn't give them any int. The classes are brilliantly balanced.

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and nothing else to do besides farm gold and PVP.

Hmm let's see... It is a PvP game. It would make sense that PvP is a focus. Skimishes, raids, sieges, etc... It all adds up to a very satisfying experience if you're a PvP player. If you're a carebear, then you won't have any fun.

And cmon farming? Who farms when you could grab a mine, attack another group, sell your wares or one of the numerous other ways to get money. Farming is a way to get quick cash, if you had to it as a steady cashflow then you were economically stupid and probably built far more than you could support.

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Unless Shadowbane has come A LONG way since the last time i played it, its nowhere near the quality level or fun factor of WOW.  Not to say its all bad mind you I did have some fun with it, its just, well, out of its leauge...
WoW is just a level-grind, Shadowbane is about hardcore PvP.

Have you even played Shadowbane? Most of your anecdotes are totally incorrect.

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Oh just FYI.... I don't think WOW is perfect(far from it in fact).  The grouping system needs major work, right now you typically gain more exp killing mobs your level by yourself than killing powrefull elite mobs grouped with your friends.  IMO this makes no sense in a game where "Massive Multiplayer" are two of the key words.  Also I will admit the game could use more character customization options(picking my own stats would have been nice thanks...).  I will admit those are two areas Shadowbane actually excels in.  Well it would excel in the last one if they ever got the damn thing balanced anyway....

You probably never played past beta, if you had it would dispel the illusion of imbalance in Shadowbane.
If you honestly think Shadowbane has massive imbalance problems then you have not played it very much.

As a statistics junkie, I cannot stand playing a character for hours that I have next to no control over their growth. I'd rather play a "buggy, unbalanced" game than a boring, dumbed-down game.

#36 Gafgarion

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 12:16 PM

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One hasn't played very far into the game if one finds "soloing" faster than grouping up for anything but the first 15-20 levels.

I disagree, if you were playing a character like a Shaman or Paladin, you could easliy solo faster than grouping at any level in the game.
Even in 40s-50s I found myself soloing far more than grouping because it was just plain faster.

Priests are a different story.

#37 blackphoenix

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 12:27 PM

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It boils down to this: It's a game, so is IT FUN? The clear answer is YES.

All of the critique about decisions made in the creation of the game have nothing to do with it's ability to spend time in and have fun playing!  

For those of you "game designers" making these comments, please make the improvements in the next release of YOUR mmorpg and let us know when it launches...


- machineman

No, its about value. Of course its a fun game but its simply not worth the price.


Not all of us have the resources to throw into a game like this.

#38 DaveyJJ

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 12:49 PM

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Either you like MMO's, of which WoW is probably the best one ive played, or you don't.  

Stop complaining about them not making the game something that isnt possible to make.

Still failing to answer one of the other major criticisms though of the WoW experience here ... $15/month is expensive for what you get for causal gamers.

A "pay-as-you-play" system is easily "possible", we've got programmers at work here who've coded similar systems many times before.

And I'm not arguing here about what's "causal" in terms of how much each person will play, or how much one person considers "expensive." I'm saying that without a pay-as-you-play option, many casual gamers won't bother with WoW.

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#39 Gafgarion

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 12:56 PM

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Either you like MMO's, of which WoW is probably the best one ive played, or you don't.  

Stop complaining about them not making the game something that isnt possible to make.

Still failing to answer one of the other major criticisms though of the WoW experience here ... $15/month is expensive for what you get for causal gamers.

A "pay-as-you-play" system is easily "possible", we've got programmers at work here who've coded similar systems many times before.

And I'm not arguing here about what's "causal" in terms of how much each person will play, or how much one person considers "expensive." I'm saying that without a pay-as-you-play option, many casual gamers won't bother with WoW.

True, no one would be refuting the greatness of WoW if, say, it were free. The fact is that it's not a "must have" game because of both the expense of it and the design flaws.
These would both be moot if it weren't a commercial title, but it is. A careful consumer has to look at both of these.

Isn't lumping all MMO's together in a blanket statement and calling WoW one the best a little... Well, closed-minded?
You have Planetside and WW2Online in the MMO catagory, neither of which remotely resemble the gameplay style of WoW, and even within the MMORPG genre you have PvP focused (Shadowbane, Mourning, Darkfall Online, old-school UO, etc) and socially focused (Tale in the Desert, Second Life, Puzzle Pirates, etc) games .
WoW is a polished example of the level-grinder MMORPG genre, though... But that's no excuse for the massive design flaws.

#40 Joe M.

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 02:12 PM

Will the madness ever end.