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Neverwinter Nights 2


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#1 Gufry

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 01:46 PM

Well, looks like it's official.

http://biz.yahoo.com...04/45442_1.html

Question now, of course, is: Will there be a Mac version?

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#2 Rubel

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 02:07 PM

Good lord. Those Obsidian folks get everything, don't they! I wonder what it'll be like.
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#3 MadMatt

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 02:23 PM

Ack! Lets get one of the Mac game companies like Aspyr or MacSoft on this ASAP. We need a port.
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#4 clocknova

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 02:37 PM

I think we can all safely bet that a Mac version will be made, considering how well the Mac version of NWN has sold. What I want to know is how likely is it that the developers' tools will make it to the Mac version? They have 2 whole years to try. Certainly they know the demand exists. And, even if they don't want to do it, certainly someone can do it for them in that time.

What do you guys think? Will this one make it? Or will we be left out of the world-building goodness again?
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#5 Seeker1

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 07:11 PM

Well, it's looking like (although I could be wrong on the last one), we're truly headed into an age of sequels.

KOTOR2 --> Obsidian
NWN2 --> Obsidian
Fallout 3 --> Bethesda
BG3 --> Troika (?)

Oddly, it's #4 I'm the most interested in, the most worried about (if the Troika rumors are true), most curious about (will they evolve or scrap Jefferson/InfinityEngine2), and have the least info on.

Of course, the breakout game is going to be Bioware's Dragon Age, which will use their own ruleset (no more d&d/3e/d20/wotc), and at least according to them is not Aurora.

It also will have a toolset and DM client, just like NWN1.

Now, I do have to say say, just as a point of exasperation, if Mac users get NWN2 without a Toolset, and DA without a Toolset, I am absolutely going to scream. Please stop this segregation.

#6 almondblight

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 10:27 PM

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the most worried about (if the Troika rumors are true)

Why worried about?  I think Troika is the most talented developers in the group (I have no hope for FO3, and didn't like the original NWN).  But the leak of Troikas new game makes it look like it's going to be something post apocalyptic - there are two screenshots and no mutants allowed (http://www.nma-fallout.com/).  Maybe Troika will also develop BG3, though I doubt it, especially with their hatred for Atari.

#7 lady_jaye

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:54 AM

That's great news... by the time MacSoft (I suppose it'd be MacSoft) ports it to the Mac, I should have finished the entire Baldur's Gate series, plus NWN and its expansion packs and Icewind Dale...

#8 DaveyJJ

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:04 AM

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What do you guys think? Will this one make it? Or will we be left out of the world-building goodness again?
Umm, as one of the very disappointed ones about Aurora (and every other freaking game that doesn't ship with the editor), I still have to go with what some of the very senior Mac game developers have said in these forums about this ... it's rarely, if ever, worth the extra time/effort/salaries involved in making editors for a tiny market share to begin with. One even said that this will be the norm for almost all games.

Much as this sucks, of course.

Notable exceptions (and kudos) for Age of Mythology/Rise of Nations, the good folks at Blizzard (Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne), and the ongoing Myth efforts.

Quote

Of course, the breakout game is going to be Bioware's Dragon Age, which will use their own ruleset (no more d&d/3e/d20/wotc), and at least according to them is not Aurora. It also will have a toolset and DM client, just like NWN1.

Now, I do have to say say, just as a point of exasperation, if Mac users get NWN2 without a Toolset, and DA without a Toolset, I am absolutely going to scream. Please stop this segregation.

Yeah,. Dragon Age does look very, very nice. And I'd love the world editor for that on a Mac (if the game is even coming to our platform).

But as I mentioned above "I still have to go with what some of the very senior Mac game developers have said in these forums about this ... it's rarely, if ever, worth the extra time/effort/salaries involved in making editors for a tiny market share to begin with. One even said that this will be the norm for almost all games."

You'd hope that with the time available the PC coders could be convinced by the Mac gaming houses to at least make an effort toward cross-platform coding the editors, but that doesn't seem to be the way things will be happening for a while.

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#9 clocknova

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:08 AM

But this just makes no sense to me.  I mean, they're making the game for a tiny market, aren't they?  What's the difference?  If they can't bother to make the editor for us, they shouldn't be making the game at all.  What's the deal?
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#10 DaveyJJ

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:18 AM

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... they're making the game for a tiny market, aren't they?  What's the difference?

The folks who code the original game are not making the game for us (i.e., Mac users), and often times rarely even bother to write code that's anywhere near cross-platform compatible (or even use RAD tools that are even available on a Mac cough*BORLAND*cough).

They write PC game code to make deadlines for a PC publisher. Then the Mac gaming companies (Aspyr, Macsoft, Feral et al) are the ones who have to deal with the PC publishers (not necessarily the PC coders) to get the rights and code to the game. Only then do the Mac folks find out how possibly horribly convoluted and messy and proprietary some of the editors code might be and decide it's clearly not worthwhile to port the editor stuff.

I think it was some of the Aspyr folks (Glenda or Brad) who pointed the difficulties (financial/scheduling/coding/networking) in even attempting ports of the editors and how unlikely we'll see editors for most games in a previous post. I can reference the post as required.

Believe me, I'm one of the ones who really, really wants an included editor with NWN2 and/or Dragon Age. But realistically, I'm not expecting it.

PS. Kudos to the folks at OpenKnight who are trying (hard) to bring Aurora's functionality to Mac and LINUX users for NWN1 and expansions.

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#11 clocknova

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:50 AM

Thanks for the explanation.  Which, I guess makes my point this:  they have about 2 years before they say it will be released.  You'd think that would be enough time to code an editor that could be easily ported.  There can't possibly be a good reason to write an editor that can only possibly run on one platform.  If the game can be ported, they can make the editor portable, too.  Otherwise, they're just plain lazy.
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#12 deckels

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 11:16 AM

I understand why we don't get editors.  I don't understand why the sequels to great games aren't being given to the developers who made the first game...

#13 clichekiller

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 11:31 AM

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... If they can't bother to make the editor for us, they shouldn't be making the game at all.  What's the deal?
I for one would rather have the game with no editor then no game at all.  Admittedly I was disappointed that the NWN editor didn't get ported, and that it is not as easy to incorporate custom content with the Mac version, but I'd still enjoyed playing NWN, SOU, and HOU (thank you OpenKnights).

#14 Gafgarion

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 11:35 AM

Quote

Quote

... If they can't bother to make the editor for us, they shouldn't be making the game at all.  What's the deal?
I for one would rather have the game with no editor then no game at all.  Admittedly I was disappointed that the NWN editor didn't get ported, and that it is not as easy to incorporate custom content with the Mac version, but I'd still enjoyed playing NWN, SOU, and HOU (thank you OpenKnights).

I'd normally disagree with clocknova, but the editor was an integral part of NWN. The editor was the major marketing point for the PC version.

Heck, I only bought NWN after I knew that the OpenKnights editor had functionality (and used even then).

#15 clichekiller

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 11:38 AM

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Thanks for the explanation.  Which, I guess makes my point this:  they have about 2 years before they say it will be released.  You'd think that would be enough time to code an editor that could be easily ported.  There can't possibly be a good reason to write an editor that can only possibly run on one platform.  If the game can be ported, they can make the editor portable, too.  Otherwise, they're just plain lazy.
Not lazy, just generally understaffed and underfunded.  I don't know what your development experience is, but writing anything near as complicated as NWN is a massive undertaking and they constantly have to balance a fine knife's edge of effort/value.  Sure they could write a game that would operate on multiple platforms or be easy to port, but then other aspects of the game would suffer, graphics, game play, quality assurance (bugs), or it would take twice as long to get out the door and cost twice as much accordingly.  

There are three code paths for game development that I can see, ie. my $.02.  Platform specific which, ie PC, which allows you to take a massive amount of shortcuts because you can make many assumptions with regards to what hardware it will be running on.  This is the way most games are made.

Platform specific but written in such a way that most platform specific code has been abstracted and can easily be replaced for porting, Id I believe did this with Doom 3.  

Or platform agnostic using development tools that work across platforms, ie. Blizzard.  Blizzard is the only company I know of that has successfully pulled this off.

#16 DaveyJJ

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 11:48 AM

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Platform specific but written in such a way that most platform specific code has been abstracted and can easily be replaced for porting, Id I believe did this with Doom 3.

If they can't do option three (perfectly cross-platform development from the get-go, i.e., Blizzard) then this is how a smart PC game developer probably should code their game. But unfortunately, having talked a fair bit to Mac game programmers, it's not usually the case.

I'm sure the efforts by Aspyr coders, Westlake, Zonic, and the other Mac game coders to actually wrangle some of the PC code to the Mac side to actually give us some of the great games we get would simply astound us normal folk.

Sure as heck hoping that Rome Total War's PC code is manageable by someone. Flaming pigs and war elephants ... oooohhhhhhhh.  :o

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#17 Rubel

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 03:56 PM

I've been told that a large reason for methods #2 and #3 is simply bragging rights. "Look how clean our code is," cross-platform developers are saying.
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#18 Seeker1

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:18 PM

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Why worried about?

As Alfred E. Neuman said, what me worry?

Well, it's this. Who's gonna do BG3?

If it's Troika, I have to say I liked ToEE and its TB system (but that's from reading about it; as a Mac user they never let me play it), and thought Arcanum was an intriguing title, but ToEE was a bugfest (although that may not have been their fault) and virtually storyless (although again that's possibly because the original TSR module was storyless). Not two characteristics I'd like to see in BG3. Plus, I have a deep suspicion if they do it they'll have no access to whatever work went into Jefferson.

If it's Obsidian, that'd be kinda cool, as Obsidian might actually have some of the rights to the Jefferson code or at least be familiar with where it was going. But they look busy with two other titles, so in a way I hope it's not them either; strikes me as a very bad biting vs. chewing dilemma for a new company.

If it's Bethesda.... arrrgh. I cannot stand how they are going to very likely Morrowindize Fallout, and that thought brings me pain. The only thing that brings me more is thinking what they might do to BG3.

Bioware seems to have wanted to kiss Atari, WotC/Hasbro, and the shackles of D & D licensing goodbye forever, and so I know it's not them.

Ack, my worst fear might be that it goes to someone even more obscure, and becomes the next crappy munchkinized *console* series title (BGDA3?)

BTW, to me the critical issue for both DA and NWN2 and whether or not we get the Toolset is not just the RAD (although that's critical too)... it's also whether they go with DirectX or OpenGL. (The latter might also have some great bearing on the portability of the game title itself).

#19 |420| Harm

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:38 PM

Im more intersted in WoW.

#20 Gafgarion

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 11:48 PM

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Im more intersted in WoW.

What does WoW have to do with NWN2? NWN2 isn't an MMORPG, neither is NWN. WoW doesn't have user-created content, NWN does. WoW doesn't have single-player play, NWN does. It's like apples to oranges, "Hearts of Iron? I'm more interested in Doom 3."