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Apple CPUs to Replace Intel in Macs?


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#121 Janichsan

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 12:29 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 24 April 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

The only fact is the XNU kernel for source 10.12. and 10.13 from Apple has ARM64 targets for the macosinternal SDK.
My understanding is that's only when Apple finally decided to make their ARM code open source. You can find references to ARM as target as early as in the XNU version coming with OS X 10.5.

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#122 the Battle Cat

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 02:23 PM

Rakden is trying not to get his nuts nailed to the wall for violating NDA.  His information is not available to the public.  If you have ears then listen.
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#123 Frost

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 10:47 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 23 April 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

Full multi-user port for iOS, cool. Glad ur here to set me straight. I'm just a dumb hyperchiken from a backwoods asteroid.

I don't know why the idea of Apple having internal builds of macOS for Apple designed processes is such a personal affront to everyone here. :huh:

Everyone? I agreed with you for once in a blue moon and you totally gloss over it. I'm switching my favoritism back to tBC, even if he did leave litter in my trunk. Used litter, no less.

Nevermind, just talked myself out of it.
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#124 the Battle Cat

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 11:52 AM

Um... I meant to leave a note saying my nemesis HAZMAT should deal with your trunk but during the confusing rush to make my getaway I realized only just now that I plum forgot.  Sorry.  I think I might owe you a couple years of your life back.  But hey if it doesn't kill you, it makes you that much weaker.... STRONGER.  I meant stronger.  Stronger.  Yeah that's it, that's the ticket.  Stronger.
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#125 Tetsuya

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 09:21 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 23 April 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

Feel like there is a lot of bad information in here about ARM's performance that is mostly based off of the failed Windows RT or horribly optimized apps. Also comparing the iPad's ARM chip to something like the 15W 8650U is just ludicrous. The iPad has a system TDP of 5 watts versus the single chip TDP of 15W for the 8650U. The iPad's CPU is probably closer to 2-3 watts. Comparing it to something from Intel that uses 5-8x as much power and generates 5x the heat just is not fair at all. I also don't find the WindowsRT failure argument that convincing. Windows has had literally decades of optimization for x86 whereas their ARM port of Windows was rushed out the door and then canceled before there was any real time for improvement. Granted, I think WindowsRT was an absolutely terrible idea.

Here are some actual benchmarks of ARM vs x86 in a server environment.

TLDR: Single core performance Intel wins by a good margin. Multicore performance has ARM near the top (due it's architecture being able to scale to way more cores easily). ARM also has the lowest power consumption by a good margin.

Here is the conclusion from that linked article:

Ummm.. who mentioned Windows RT?  I certainly didnt.  Im talking about the very current, just-released Windows on ARM.  Like... six weeks old at most.  

And it sucks.  A lot.

#126 macdude22

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 02:33 PM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on 27 April 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

I think I might owe you a couple years of your life back.  

More than a couple, but who's counting >_>
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#127 Janichsan

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 04:03 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 02 May 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Ummm.. who mentioned Windows RT?  I certainly didnt.  Im talking about the very current, just-released Windows on ARM.  Like... six weeks old at most.  

And it sucks.  A lot.
Windows on ARM appears to be the same popsnizzle as Windows RT with a different name – at least currently: only Windows Store UWP apps are fully supported, and the fabled x86 emulation is lacking compatibility and performance.

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#128 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 06:06 PM

I donít see how development on ARM by Microsoft currently is relevant to what Apple is doing really. I hope it isnít necessary to point out why in detail.
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#129 Janichsan

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 01:24 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 05 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I don't see how development on ARM by Microsoft currently is relevant to what Apple is doing really. I hope it isn't necessary to point out why in detail.
Maybe take it as a warning about what to expect from a desktop operating system on ARM? :P

But seriously, when in the history of mankind has a thread on IMG not been derailed at some point?

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#130 ipickert55

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 02:16 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 06 May 2018 - 01:24 AM, said:

But seriously, when in the history of mankind has a thread on IMG not been derailed at some point?

Truer words never spoken. I don't even know whats going on anymore.
Maybe it really is all cocks in the end.

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#131 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 12:33 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 02 May 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Ummm.. who mentioned Windows RT?  I certainly didn't.  I'm talking about the very current, just-released Windows on ARM.  Like... six weeks old at most.  

And it sucks.  A lot.

You mentioned Windows RT by bringing up Windows on ARM. The new Windows 10 on ARM is just the resurrection of that project with an x86 32bit emulator added on top.

Once again I think this is a pretty bad example to try and showcase ARM performance. It is an example that is so clearly stacked against ARM that is really no point discussing it - clearly Intel is going to prevail massively for the following reasons:
  • The new Windows 10 ARM laptops are all using the Snapdragon 835 processor (same processor that is in many of the 2017's flagship Android phones). It has the same power/thermals as the lowest end Intel chips. Intel's Core series chips (even the 'low power' U series) are using 3-5x as much power.
  • Windows OS and Windows native apps (Edge for example) run natively on ARM, but 99.99% of 3rd party apps will need to use the x86 emulator (aka big performance loss)
  • Windows 10 ARM is only able to run x86 apps via emulation. It cannot run x86 64-bit apps and it cannot install any x86 3rd party drivers. x86 Apps must be fine with being 32 bit and using the generic Windows drivers.
Without even looking at the benchmarks you can be almost certain that a laptop confined to the above points is going to be a garbage experience.

Here are some benchmarks to look at: https://www.techspot...rm-performance/

None of the shortfalls of Windows 10 on ARM fall on ARM as an architecture (except for the fact that ARM is a different architecture that needs on apps to be rewritten to support ARM64). In fact, if you look at the native app performance you actually see ARM outperforming Intel's comparable CPU. The problems with Windows 10 ARM fall entirely on it being an entirely new platform that relies on emulation and brute force techniques rather than elegant optimization that x86 has the benefits of having decades of on Windows. To further compound things, all of the emulation and brute force techniques are massively bottlenecked by CPU that is designed for a phone's power/thermal requirements.

TLDR: ARM architecture trying to emulate x86 apps and getting beaten by x86 processors isn't really indicative of anything. Windows 10 on ARM is bad because the nearly every app requires an emulator, not because ARM itself is bad.
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#132 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:18 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 06 May 2018 - 01:24 AM, said:


Maybe take it as a warning about what to expect from a desktop operating system on ARM? :P

But seriously, when in the history of mankind has a thread on IMG not been derailed at some point?

One of my thoughts here is that Apple engineers have a long and successful track record in development for this platform. Every year the hardware and software is improving. I havenít seen anything approaching this level of success on the Microsoft side of the coin. Iíve seen a complete failure to create a compelling smartphone and thatís about it. Itís not hard to imagine their design and engineering teams being well behind Apple as such, rendering examples of their progress far less meaningful than Appleís progress on the same path.

I think Microsoft will get there too but it will be sometime after Apple does before they have anything to write home about. I think Apple has been recruiting the best and brightest people in this area of development for longer than Microsoft has and it shows. This doesnít even get into the management side of things including who has been focusing their efforts on what and for how long although it obviously ties in directly to what I just mentioned.

Basically, development for ARM has been Appleís greatest priority for a long time now. It has never been Microsoftís greatest priority which of course is Intel CPUs. Nobody can be the best at everything and Microsoft certainly is not the leader in ARM development. Therefore, they do not constitute any sort of yardstick measurement of possibilities in their early efforts at ARM for desktop use.

The derail comment made me lol. Being a repeat offender myself I canít get away with throwing any stones for that. :-)
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#133 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:32 PM

Sneaky makes a lot of good points about a huge transitional problem for Microsoft which is the complete lack of 3rd party support pretty much vs Apple who already has a huge library of iOS software ready to go. This leaves Microsoft in the unenviable position of trying to emulate x86 on ARM with the trade offs he mentions. This is a problem that Apple does not have for the most part should they release a line of MacBooks and iMacs with ARM processors.
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#134 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:51 PM

If Apple tries to shove macOS onto ARM I think we will have a similar situation to Windows 10 ARM, although likely not quite as bad. Apple is able to force 3rd party developers to do things a lot easier then MS can, plus modern Mac apps using modern API's like Metal already support ARM64 I suspect. Apple users have gotten used to Apple not really giving 2 fraks about backward compatibility so people might be able to just deal with it better on the Mac side (not saying that is a good thing). I don't think it would be a very nice transition though, as many of the comments in this thread have expressed.

My thinking is that iOS will continue to develop as an entry-level desktop replacement, and in a few years you might have some sort of 2-in-1 device running iOS that has a fat 10-15 watt ARM chip (more in line with how much power Intel's laptop chips use) that will be able to perform absolutely fine for general consumer computing tasks and even be passable for amateur level use of heavier applications like Photoshop and Final Cut (the same way the 12" Macbook is fine for use of those applications currently). That is assuming that more pro-level apps make it over to the iPad, but I strongly suspect that that will be the case.
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#135 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 06:05 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 07 May 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

If Apple tries to shove macOS onto ARM I think we will have a similar situation to Windows 10 ARM....

I think you are not considering the many references I have made to the consumers these products would be aimed at primarily. Forget macOS on ARM. I doubt very much that this is the goal here. The market these products would serve does not need macOS nor the apps requiring it and the hardware it runs on. Tim Cook has made clear there is no intention to water down the traditional Mac platform at the present time, making the notion of macOS on ARM even more unlikely. That however says nothing about introducing new notebooks and even light duty desktops with ARM processors. Itís probably better for the purposes of this discussion to let Apple marketing and management figure out what to call them but itís fair to say redundancy will be removed, probably in stages. This still ultimately is going to leave a professional high end that is a very small but important part of Appleís business and everything else on ARM in time. What is that time frame? Five years max seems likely.

We are talking about something new here. These devices will capitalize on Appleís primary operating system which is iOS, not macOS and a launch will leverage the huge existing library of iOS apps, the benefits of the walled garden for security, etc. Consumers already know what iOS is, many more than macOS certainly and that is also a plus.

As for ecosystem, itís already in place between iOS and macOS and presumably both will evolve as needed to meet the overall needs of Appleís customers. This kind of innovation and focus on consumer needs is why the guys in the video below have such nice things to say about Apple, including Bill Gates. Note what he says about Apple. I consider this move to be just like them, Apple I mean. I also think it will be a very successful and yet again, profitable one.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=VXSEsQ_hNKg
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#136 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 11:08 PM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 07 May 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

Sneaky makes a lot of good points about a huge transitional problem for Microsoft which is the complete lack of 3rd party support pretty much vs Apple who already has a huge library of iOS software ready to go.

But Microsoft has the huge Windows Phone software library... oh, wait!

#137 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 01:29 AM

View PostCamper-Hunter, on 07 May 2018 - 11:08 PM, said:


But Microsoft has the huge Windows Phone software library... oh, wait!

lol

On a bright note, they are prepared for the future with iOS apps and they have more of them on the way.
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#138 Janichsan

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 03:39 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 07 May 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

Tim Cook has made clear there is no intention to water down the traditional Mac platform at the present time, making the notion of macOS on ARM even more unlikely.
That's actually only half of the quote. What he said in regard of converging Macs and iOS based devices was this: "We don't believe in sort of watering down one for the other. … And if you begin to merge the two … you begin to make trade offs and compromises."

So the argument goes both ways: they neither want to water down Macs and macOS, nor soup up iPads and iOS to a degree where they begin to infringe on the Mac's domain. And ARM bases laptops and desktops with an iOS derivative as you suggest certainly do that.

Quote

These devices will capitalize on Apple's primary operating system which is iOS, not macOS and a launch will leverage the huge existing library of iOS apps, …
…none of which are designed to be used with mouse or trackpads (which I gather you still see as primary way of input for these ARM iOSbooks and non-Macs) or just adapted to the significantly larger screen sizes. Hell, even eight years after the release of the iPad, there are still new iOS apps that aren't adapted to these devices.

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#139 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 12:30 AM

Well, I didnít quote Tim Cook verbatim and I didnít mean to leave anything out. However, I donít read anything extra into what he said either. I got the not wanting to merge and water down part. I take that to mean the traditional Mac remains what it is basically and the new ARM systems are just that, new. They arenít watered down Macs. They are more capable iOS devices. In that scenario, yes they do cannibalize low end Macs they obsolete. This does not differ from what Tim Cook said but of course it says more than Tim Cook is willing to or could reasonably be expected to say at this time. I think he was just clarifying that the option for a traditional Mac isnít going anywhere in his mind at this time. Thatís not a departure from anything I said but maybe didnít say clearly enough.

As for the mouse and track pad issue, how does tapping and swiping a trackpad differ from doing the same thing on the surface of an iOS device? A visual pointer for that would be implemented at the system software level such that apps donít see or need to care about where the taps and swipes are coming from. They get that info from iOS as you know. They would also get the same positional info from the operating system. Both the Apple Trackpad and Smart mouse have the ability to serve up swipes and taps along with moving to points they occur at. All this stuff I think you know is handled at the operating system level. Some issues may need addressing but I donít foresee any major problems with input really, particularly for app developers who will largely be insulated from it. On the other hand some new possibilities may present themselves with larger screen sizes and other possible changes such as increases in available memory and performance.

I just view this as any other technology change with the potential for growth and refinement over time. I see problems as issues to tackle and solve, not reasons to not do things. As such, I certainly donít see app development being a problem either. App developers will embrace new opportunities to do new things. They wonít stop adapting and developing great new or improved software just because hardware changes. They will embrace it or they will very quickly be replaced by somebody else that does.

The expansion of iOS to notebooks is going to be a very big deal I think and will include exciting new things I am not thinking of, that wonderful surprise and delight factor will be fun to experience. I plan to be an early adopter. I expect to enjoy some fun with games then too just like I already do with iOS today.
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#140 Janichsan

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:46 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 09 May 2018 - 12:30 AM, said:

Well, I didn't quote Tim Cook verbatim and I didn't mean to leave anything out. However, I don't read anything extra into what he said either. I got the not wanting to merge and water down part. I take that to mean the traditional Mac remains what it is basically and the new ARM systems are just that, new. They aren't watered down Macs. They are more capable iOS devices.
…which equates to "watering down one (i.e. the Mac) for the other (i.e. iOS devices). But okay.

Quote

As for the mouse and track pad issue, how does tapping and swiping a trackpad differ from doing the same thing on the surface of an iOS device?
And what about tilt controls, which admittedly aren't used that often?

Quote

Both the Apple Trackpad and Smart mouse have the ability to serve up swipes and taps along with moving to points they occur at.
This pretty much sums up the whole range of available input devices which support swipes, taps, and gestures to the extent that would be necessary to make iOS apps fully usuable. So the wall around that proverbial garden gets even higher by requiring Apple input devices to use Apple approved apps on Apple gadgets.

Anyway, my point was less that you require a fitting input device to use these apps, but rather that a mouse or keyboard driven computer requires a completely different interface design than a heldheld touch-driven gadget. I'm sure you remember the criticism Microsoft got when they forced an interface primarily designed for touch input on desktop PCs with Windows 8.

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