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Bungie Caught With Their Pants Down by Destiny 2 Players?


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#41 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:05 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 04 December 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

Keeping Diablo 3 running is supported by the rest of their cash-cow stable.  If it keeps you opening up the Battle.net app, which might lead to you playing any of their other games... its worth it for them.

You really believe that Diablo III is a loss leader that simply bleeds money and makes none? You think nobody buys the game anymore? The expansion didn't sell? Another one will never happen? Maybe you could explain the recent $15. Necromancer that I'm sure has sold like hotcakes across multiple platforms and which I bought myself. Also, Activision is calling the plays ultimately now and they are not in the habit of giving away anything. In short, Diablo III makes money and no doubt more money making is planned or Diablo III would not exist because no matter what Blizzard might want, Activision is calling the plays now. When I see Destiny using Battle.net and being wedged in with Blizzard's titles I am inclined to think Battle.net is an asset at Activision's disposal even without reading a bunch of stuff I don't care about related to all of that. If Battle.net is at Activision's disposal, it follows that everything Blizzard is as well so far as top management is concerned.

Diablo III is just another example of a popular game many people like that is sustained by that and nothing else. Need more money? Give them a new class they want, some virtual toys to go with them and watch the profits come rolling in 15 bucks at a time over a huge number of players.

Edit: cut out the EQ and John Smedley story. I'll save that for another time but it is related to this discussion.
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#42 Matt Diamond

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:51 AM

We already pointed out that Diablo III is not representative. And even there ,Blizzard hedged their bets for the first couple years with the auction house. Thankfully they had the luxury of removing it. But at the start it probably looked like a good substitute for the subscription model that was the industry norm for games requiring lots of servers.
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#43 Frost

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

And now Bungie has released a $20 expansion with an hour and a half of content and most of the cool gear locked behind microtransactions. Anyone who hasn't bought the expansion loses the ability to play most of the endgame activities.

You know, if you find yourself in a hole, maybe you better stop digging.
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When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#44 Janichsan

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:50 PM

View PostFrost, on 06 December 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

And now Bungie has released a $20 expansion with an hour and a half of content and most of the cool gear locked behind microtransactions. Anyone who hasn't bought the expansion loses the ability to play most of the endgame activities.

You know, if you find yourself in a hole, maybe you better stop digging.
I only boarded the Destiny 1 train pretty late, but havenít they pulled off that same crap back then with the first D1 DLC already?

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#45 Frost

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 07:20 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 06 December 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

I only boarded the Destiny 1 train pretty late, but haven't they pulled off that same crap back then with the first D1 DLC already?

Somewhat, but not nearly to the same degree. Certain Crucible playlists and Strike playlists got locked out, but you didn't lose the ability to play existing raids, and you didn't lose the ability to play Weekly Heroic strikes and Nightfalls unless the map that week was a DLC map. Otherwise they were available. They never locked any real portion of new content behind Eververse microtransactions either, they just made it easier to do things like directly buy cosmetics for exotics and whatnot if you wanted near the end of the game's life.

Looks like this time they're going full on "pay-to-continue playing." I can see how that would rub people the wrong way. Not to mention the extremely spare content. The Dark Below and House of Wolves in year 1 of Destiny 1 added a LOT more content than Curse of Osiris. Curse of Osiris is more along the lines of the free update/addition they did halfway between The Taken King and Rise of Iron, except they're charging 20 bucks for it.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#46 Janichsan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:41 AM

View PostFrost, on 06 December 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

They never locked any real portion of new content behind Eververse microtransactions either, ...
Maybe I'm missing something, but what content did they lock behind microtransactions? What I've seen so far, Eververse still only sells cosmetics.

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#47 Tetsuya

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:07 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 05 December 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

You really believe that Diablo III is a loss leader that simply bleeds money and makes none?

It certainly isn't selling tens of thousands of copies and making millions of dollars.  The number of concurrent people playing it is quite low.  

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You think nobody buys the game anymore? The expansion didn't sell? Another one will never happen?

Actually, they HAVE confirmed (at Blizzcon) that they aren't working on anything major for Diablo and are focusing on other franchises.  

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Maybe you could explain the recent $15. Necromancer that I'm sure has sold like hotcakes across multiple platforms and which I bought myself.

~25% of active players bought it.  Was it a money-maker?  Sure, because the actual effort of it was near nill.  But it isn't an ongoing revenue stream by any means.  Doesn't even total up to what Hearthstone makes in a month.  

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Also, Activision is calling the plays ultimately now and they are not in the habit of giving away anything. In short, Diablo III makes money and no doubt more money making is planned or Diablo III would not exist because no matter what Blizzard might want, Activision is calling the plays now.

Which is not what ANY of the top level people at Blizzard say... including the ones who have retired or moved on (such as Chris Metzen) and are not obligated to "tow the party line".  

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When I see Destiny using Battle.net and being wedged in with Blizzard's titles

"wedged in with Blizzard titles" - you mean the part where it ISNT next to the Blizzard games in the launcher and is in a separate section by itself labelled "Activision"?

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I am inclined to think Battle.net is an asset at Activision's disposal even without reading a bunch of stuff I don't care about related to all of that. If Battle.net is at Activision's disposal, it follows that everything Blizzard is as well so far as top management is concerned.

So, your position is that you dont care to educate yourself about the situation, but you're sure you know the real story.  Got it.  FWIW, Metzen has talked about the issue since leaving Blizzard - it was *Bungie's* idea to use Battle.net, because Activision didn't want the game on Steam (they wanted to cut out Valve) and originally wanted Bungie to build their own launcher (Keep in mind, Bungie is NOT owned by Activision, they are merely the publisher) - Bungie has been independently owned since they left Microsoft).  Blizzard also could have said no.  They said yes because the more people that install the Battle.net client the better - the more likely they are to then buy Blizzard's games.  That was actually what convinced Mike Morhaime to say yes.  

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Diablo III is just another example of a popular game many people like that is sustained by that and nothing else.

I was going to insert something snarky here about how much popularity is worth in USD, but i just dont have the heart.  No one here is claiming that the company is a saint or anything, but i am saying that sometimes "it makes us gazillions of dollars" isn't the only reason to keep supporting something, especially when the costs of doing so simply aren't that high.  

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Need more money? Give them a new class they want, some virtual toys to go with them and watch the profits come rolling in 15 bucks at a time over a huge number of players.

Because there's a pattern of that, right?  Oh.. no, there isn't.  And the company has outright stated that there's not any serious new content coming to D3 and no work being done on the franchise at the moment.  
Diablo 2 was supported for 10+ years with new seasons and even new rune words and the like, and it certainly wasn't making them any serious cash at the end (and IIRC is still playable even?  I know there was an update a while back).  D3 is still around because having the people that like it as loyal customers is worth the cost of operating it (which is quite low at this point).

#48 Tetsuya

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:15 AM

View PostJanichsan, on 07 December 2017 - 01:41 AM, said:

Maybe I'm missing something, but what content did they lock behind microtransactions? What I've seen so far, Eververse still only sells cosmetics.

I guess If you consider the expansion content a Microtransaction, then they locked people out of Heroic Strikes (which are "new" to D2 with this xpac) and out of the raid and Nightfall.. mostly.  You can still do the Nightfall if you were close to the Power cap in the vanilla game.  

View PostFrost, on 06 December 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

And now Bungie has released a $20 expansion with an hour and a half of content and most of the cool gear locked behind microtransactions. Anyone who hasn't bought the expansion loses the ability to play most of the endgame activities.

You know, if you find yourself in a hole, maybe you better stop digging.

What gear is locked behind microtransactions?  Or are we calling the expansion itself a microtransaction?  Because AFAIK, there's nothing but cosmetics from Eververse.  And i've earned so many of the damn things that every other time i play for any length of time i have to have a 10 minute "dismantle" session to make room, because im at the cap (without ever purchasing any "Silver")

On the topic of how much content there was... yeah, not going to back Bingle on that one.  The campaign is ludicrously short.  Of course i felt the same about the vanilla campaign for D2 - it felt like it needed about six more major missions and some better narrative to show that this "Red War" was actually taking place over several months or more.  

I do dig the Heroic Adventures though.  They are satisfyingly challenging as a solo experience - i actually failed the timer on one (you still get loot, just lower level and only one chest instead of two).  They need to add that feature to the other planets.

#49 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:50 AM

Diablo 3 may not be performing well lately, but they made crazy bank on it. It's one of the most popular games of all time (by sales numbers). The game sold 30 million copies as of 2015, so could be at 35ish million copies sold now. It's number 12 on wikipedia's list of best selling games of all time, right beside Skyrim.

The idea that Diablo is some loss leader that Blizzard just keeps it around as charity is ridiculous. You have to remember that any servers that they bought for Diablo 3 can easily be re purposed for their other games. If Diablo's playercount drops by 50%, they can simply transition 50% of the Diablo servers over to Overwatch, Hearthstone, or other projects. They could even patch Diablo 3 to be peer2peer or just offline (like we all wanted) if they really didn't feel like hosting it.

They aren't sitting there with server capacity for 2 million concurrent players burning through hosting budgets wondering when everyone is going to come back to Diablo. Blizzard isn't run by idiots.
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#50 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:25 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 07 December 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

I guess If you consider the expansion content a Microtransaction, then they locked people out of Heroic Strikes (which are "new" to D2 with this xpac) and out of the raid and Nightfall.. mostly.  You can still do the Nightfall if you were close to the Power cap in the vanilla game.  

The Prestige Nightfall is locked behind the expansion which has rustled some feathers since you have to complete the prestige nightfall in order to get the platinum trophy on PS4 (or perfect gamerscore on Xbox). I don't care much about trophies but I know people who do care a lot about them and it is seriously a dick move by Bungie.


View PostTetsuya, on 07 December 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

What gear is locked behind microtransactions?  Or are we calling the expansion itself a microtransaction?  Because AFAIK, there's nothing but cosmetics from Eververse.  And i've earned so many of the damn things that every other time i play for any length of time i have to have a 10 minute "dismantle" session to make room, because im at the cap (without ever purchasing any "Silver")

On the topic of how much content there was... yeah, not going to back Bingle on that one.  The campaign is ludicrously short.  Of course i felt the same about the vanilla campaign for D2 - it felt like it needed about six more major missions and some better narrative to show that this "Red War" was actually taking place over several months or more.  

I do dig the Heroic Adventures though.  They are satisfyingly challenging as a solo experience - i actually failed the timer on one (you still get loot, just lower level and only one chest instead of two).  They need to add that feature to the other planets.

I think the main complaints about content being locked behind Eververse is due to them showcasing a lot of gear/emotes in the trailers for the expansion that apparently are only available via Bright Engrams. The gear that is locked behind microtransactions is class items (hunter cloaks, etc.). Those things are just cosmetic, but it's frustrating to players to have those things being marketed as content when in reality they are locked behind either a super long level up grind, or a paywall.

All of that being said, I've been ok with Destiny 2's microtransactions. I think the main reason people are so upset is that Destiny 2 is an inferior game compared to Destiny 1 Year 3, and microtransactions are being used as the scapegoat.
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#51 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 01:43 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 07 December 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Diablo 3 may not be performing well lately, but they made crazy bank on it. It's one of the most popular games of all time (by sales numbers). The game sold 30 million copies as of 2015, so could be at 35ish million copies sold now. It's number 12 on wikipedia's list of best selling games of all time, right beside Skyrim.
I just bought the Diablo III Battle Chest 14 days ago! All the reviews says that the expansion 'fixed' Diablo III, so I look forward to playing through it again, this time with a Crusader, and see the expansion. I borrowed my brothers copy the last time. Back then it didn't hit me nearly the same as Diablo I or II.
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#52 Frost

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 03:22 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 07 December 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

I think the main complaints about content being locked behind Eververse is due to them showcasing a lot of gear/emotes in the trailers for the expansion that apparently are only available via Bright Engrams. The gear that is locked behind microtransactions is class items (hunter cloaks, etc.). Those things are just cosmetic, but it's frustrating to players to have those things being marketed as content when in reality they are locked behind either a super long level up grind, or a paywall.

Pretty much this. It's sort of like Chroma in The Taken King, except they were much more forward about that being an Eververse thing, and they also had plenty of other options for getting Chroma gear beyond just Eververse by also letting you get it from faction reps when hitting milestones with them.

On another note, I played some Destiny 1 on my PS4 yesterday and it reminded me how much more fun the game was with the Primary-Special-Heavy system than the two tickle guns and one special or heavy we have now. Also, abilities and supers being available frequently and regularly rather than on absurdly long cooldowns. Destiny 1 made you feel like a superhero. Destiny 2 is really missing that visceral action now that I go back and play the original.

Only problem is I don't know that I can do that much. Holy crap, I've gotten used to playing Destiny at around 100 FPS over the past month. Playing at 30 FPS with the tiny FOV didn't bother me when it was all I knew, but jumping directly from D2 PC to D1 PS4 was like playing a motion sickness-inducing slideshow. :blarf:

I wish there had been a PC port of Destiny 1. I'd just play that.
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When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#53 Janichsan

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 03:34 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 07 December 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

The Prestige Nightfall is locked behind the expansion which has rustled some feathers since you have to complete the prestige nightfall in order to get the platinum trophy on PS4 (or perfect gamerscore on Xbox). I don't care much about trophies but I know people who do care a lot about them and it is seriously a dick move by Bungie.

It's funny that this apparently comes back to bite Bungie in their arse: at least in some cases, owners of the digital console version were able to get a refund for the base game, as it apparently is regarded as "broken", since not all achievements/trophies are attainable without the expansion. :D

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I think the main complaints about content being locked behind Eververse is due to them showcasing a lot of gear/emotes in the trailers for the expansion that apparently are only available via Bright Engrams.

There's nothing new about that. Bungie has done that as long as I can remember. Here just the trailer for the last Festival of the Lost mini expansion for Destiny 1, that shows almost nothing but stuff from Eververse.

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Those things are just cosmetic, but it's frustrating to players to have those things being marketed as content when in reality they are locked behind either a super long level up grind, or a paywall.

Seriously, there's nothing "super long" about the level grind. I played three hours today, leveled up four times, and got one extra Bright Engram from a mission. The real problem lies in the drop rates of the contents: in all the Bright Engrams I got so far, I found exactly two pieces of these class items.

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#54 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:20 AM

View PostTetsuya, on 07 December 2017 - 02:07 AM, said:

/Snip...

Well, in reference to the most recent Blizzcon the official word was this: "The future has a lot to hold for the world of Sanctuary, but in the meantime, drop by and hang out with us at BlizzCon!

That could mean a lot of things but I'd say we may see the Amazon and Druid classes people would like and who knows what else? I don't but apparently they have some plans unless they are lying. I don't think they are lying myself.

That quote comes from Blizzard here: https://us.battle.ne...2017-10-19-2017

At any rate, my point was simply that D3 isn't just a loss leader they only keep running to promote traffic on the Battle.net app.

Here's further indication there are plans for D3:

http://www.pcgamer.c...-are-happening/

where they say this:

The Diablo 3 2.6.1 update is "on the horizon," and beyond that, "we're hard at work on the future of Diablo and exploring what's next for the franchise," Nevalistis continued. "Please be patient. Our passion for Sanctuary burns as bright as the High Heavens and as hot as the Burning Hells—and we’re excited to hunker down and get working!"

The article is dated: September 28, 2017

I have a funny feeling all that stuff is going to result in some money changing hands down the road. Then again, I am too lazy to educate myself about such things in a lot of detail because I don't regard doing that as a good use of my valuable time. :)
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