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OS X Graphics API's: OpenGL vs Metal vs Vulkan

OS X Metal API OpenGL Vulkan DirectX Performance

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#21 clocknova

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:47 AM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 11 January 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

I wish I knew. Apple has almost always preferred to have full control over all systems, but a graphics API seems like a strange thing to try and be unique on. Metal is a very powerful API and I wish it the best, but Vulkan will almost certainly see much better support from developers and faster updates/new features.

There's nothing stopping Apple from having both Metal and Vulkan, but I doubt that will be the case.

Is there anything stopping another company from developing their own implementation of Vulkan for OS X, something that could be installed as an extension?
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#22 macdude22

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:50 AM

I would imagine SIP would put a damper on a third party implementing low level technology like that on OS X.
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#23 clocknova

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:54 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 14 January 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

I would imagine SIP would put a damper on a third party implementing low level technology like that on OS X.

SIP?
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#24 macdude22

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:12 AM

View Postclocknova, on 14 January 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

SIP?

Sometimes referred to as rootless security, in 10.11 Apple designated certain directories and files within the system as immutable except by them, even if you are using root privileges. I would expect that it would be difficult to implement a low level graphics technology like Vulkan in 10.11 and later. But I don't know enough about it to speak with authority.

Rich Trouton has an excellent overview if you are interested in learning more.

http://www.jamfsoftw...fense-in-depth/

https://support.appl.../en-us/HT204899

https://developer.ap...rotections.html
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#25 clocknova

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:06 PM

I've got a fully-loaded, 27" iMac (late 2013) now, but it's beginning to look like my next computer purchase will be a Mac Mini and a cheap, custom-built gaming PC with a third-party monitor to share between them.  I hate that I have this glorious 27" screen on my desk but I cannot connect any other devices to it.
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#26 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:28 AM

View Postclocknova, on 14 January 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

I've got a fully-loaded, 27" iMac (late 2013) now, but it's beginning to look like my next computer purchase will be a Mac Mini and a cheap, custom-built gaming PC with a third-party monitor to share between them.  I hate that I have this glorious 27" screen on my desk but I cannot connect any other devices to it.

You can use Target Display Mode, but it will only work from a Thunderbolt source (ie: from another computer's thunderbolt port)
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#27 ikir

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 12:48 AM

View Postclocknova, on 14 January 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

I've got a fully-loaded, 27" iMac (late 2013) now, but it's beginning to look like my next computer purchase will be a Mac Mini and a cheap, custom-built gaming PC with a third-party monitor to share between them.  I hate that I have this glorious 27" screen on my desk but I cannot connect any other devices to it.
Or you can buy an eGPU for the mini. Bizon on eBay :)


@thread: Firewatch is out and it should use Metal
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#28 macdude22

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 07:12 AM

View Postikir, on 11 February 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:

Or you can buy an eGPU for the mini. Bizon on eBay :)


@thread: Firewatch is out and it should use Metal

https://camposanto.z...atch-use-Metal-

Newp.

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#29 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 08:09 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 11 February 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

https://camposanto.z...atch-use-Metal-

Newp.

Come join us at the disappointed bar. We have whiskey.

mmmmm whiskey. It was -25 C this morning when I had to go brush off the car for work. Could have used a nice whiskey blanket. Is 6:30 AM too early to commence drinking?
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#30 the Battle Cat

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:40 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 11 February 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

https://camposanto.z...atch-use-Metal-

Newp.

Come join us at the disappointed bar. We have whiskey.

I'm disappointed that I'm all grown up and there still aren't any flying cars.  May I join you?

View PostSneaky Snake, on 11 February 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Is 6:30 AM too early to commence drinking?

Yes.  At 6:30 AM you should only be sipping whiskey.  Save the drinking for after you crashed into a telephone pole.
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#31 macdude22

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:44 AM

A sip of nice warming OGD is prescribed by 4/5 drunken street doctors for cold winter mornings.
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#32 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:17 AM

Two interesting links:
• Vulkan 1.0 specifications are now released! Anandtech link.
• Running Vulcan over Metal? MetalVK - This could turn out interesting, and if I understand this correctly, will be the basis for wrappers in the future, and likely be much faster than the current OpenGL-DirectX wrappings that exist now?
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#33 Janichsan

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:50 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 16 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

• Vulkan 1.0 specifications are now released! Anandtech link.
So, the Khronos Group still uses 20+ year old MS Office clipart?

Posted Image

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#34 Frost

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 12:50 PM

View PostJanichsan, on 16 February 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

So, the Khronos Group still uses 20+ year old MS Office clipart?

http://images.anandt...e-010_575px.jpg

Obviously never seen what passes for a presentation in the Air Force if you think that's bad.

I remember a guy I knew who managed the sat uplinks at Aviano used to rail about how PowerPoint was rotting the American military from the inside out. :P
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#35 macdude22

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 09:42 AM

View PostFrost, on 16 February 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

Obviously never seen what passes for a presentation in the Air Force if you think that's bad.

I remember a guy I knew who managed the sat uplinks at Aviano used to rail about how PowerPoint was rotting the American military from the inside out. :P

Can confirm. Know a guy who does admin for the Navy out in Cali. If it wasn't made on Powerpoint XP then printed on overhead film they don't want anything to do with it.

It would be nice if there was, you know, any friggin game on OS X that was using Metal. So we could adequately benchmark the performance vs. OpenGL/DirectX.

I'ma still mad at Campo Santo even if it's on unity not them that Firewatch doesn't have the advertised metal renderer.

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#36 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 01:51 PM

I feel like we will be waiting on either Blizzard or Epic for the first metal game in OS X.

Blizzard is confirmed to be bringing metal to WoW, Starcraft and HotS. I would run a benchmark now if you can in order to get a performance metric for the OpenGL version and then in how ever many weeks/months/years it takes for them to update the game with metal support another benchmark can be run then. Metal support is coming to WoW with the Legion expansion, which has a release date of September 21st, 2016.

I would do this myself, but my Mac doesn't support Metal, so there's not much point in me benchmarking my non-metal performance.
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#37 macdude22

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 01:57 PM

Drink Beer. Benchmark Starcraft and WoW on my MBP. Well ok, you talked me into it.
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#38 jeannot

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 03:49 PM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 16 February 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Two interesting links:
• Vulkan 1.0 specifications are now released! Anandtech link.
• Running Vulcan over Metal? MetalVK - This could turn out interesting, and if I understand this correctly, will be the basis for wrappers in the future, and likely be much faster than the current OpenGL-DirectX wrappings that exist now?
So now we have games ported to Apple's outdated openGL, and in the future we'll have wrappers around Metal... I'm not sure which is worse. :unsure:
Apple could just support Vulkan like anybody else. :glare:

View Postmacdude22, on 17 February 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:


I'ma still mad at Campo Santo even if it's on unity not them that Firewatch doesn't have the advertised metal renderer
As I said on another thread, Metal seems pretty far away on Unity's roadmap. Probably not this year.

#39 Janichsan

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 02:01 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 17 February 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

It would be nice if there was, you know, any friggin game on OS X that was using Metal. So we could adequately benchmark the performance vs. OpenGL/DirectX.
So far, I know even of only a single non-game (and non-benchmarking) application that supports Metal: Pixelmator uses Metal in its extensions for Photos. But that's it.

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#40 MichalM.Mac

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 02:06 AM

Hmm so we might get first Metal game after next OS X release which could include some missing features devs want.

btw there are extremely interesting posts by Unreal engine dev in this thread http://forums.macrum....1825150/page-7





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