129 replies to this topic

[Wumpus]

Looking forward to doing a write-up preview on this. It's good stuff, just not allowed to write about it yet.  I'm actually going to be in London this week, going to see if I can meet up with Edwin

[edddeduck]

ltcommander.data, on 19 August 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:

Since you're planning on selling DIRT2 on the Mac App Store, I'm curious whether Apple saying they will soon require all apps submitted to the store implement sandboxing causes any problems for games?

I don't think it will cause to many problems, if we get any it will be mostly in the first title which will be a little bit of a learning curve.

ltcommander.data, on 19 August 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:

Games seem to be pretty self contained so perhaps implementing sandboxing isn't too hard. Does sandboxing cause compatibility problems with Snow Leopard or can one build still support both platforms?

I am fairly sure supporting Snow and Lion can be done in the same game but I don't know as we have not released a sand boxed game yet.

ltcommander.data, on 19 August 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:

Will sandboxing be available if purchased outside the Mac App Store whether digitally or physically?

The version of games we sell now are binary identical no matter the store (including the appstore versions). This means sandboxing when it is made mandatory in the AppStore will be in all versions of the game.

ltcommander.data, on 19 August 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:

And will sandboxing be implemented on older games as they are brought to the Mac App Store and will patches be provided to bring this security feature to existing owners of older games?

If we have to patch a game to fix a problem we will have to add sandboxing to submit the patch to Apple however we would not plan on releasing an update solely for sandboxing unless required to do so by Apple. Sandboxing is primarily to defend against malware as Feral games are not malware and do not contain any questionable code adding sandboxing will not add anything to the users experience apart from being able to say the game runs in a sandbox! As such it is better to focus development effort on new games and patches to fix problems users experience. But we as always monitor the situation in the coming months.

bismilah, on 21 August 2011 - 07:56 AM, said:

on this page, they sell the boxed version at 28 € while digital distribution is at 24 €

That link is to a third party reseller if they want to alter the pricing then it is their choice however the RRP is the same for all versions. You are not allowed to force pricing on anyone that is called price fixing and is illegal in most places around the world! By all means hunt about for the best deal

Edwin

[ltcommander.data]

edddeduck, on 23 August 2011 - 09:53 AM, said:

If we have to patch a game to fix a problem we will have to add sandboxing to submit the patch to Apple however we would not plan on releasing an update solely for sandboxing unless required to do so by Apple. Sandboxing is primarily to defend against malware as Feral games are not malware and do not contain any questionable code adding sandboxing will not add anything to the users experience apart from being able to say the game runs in a sandbox! As such it is better to focus development effort on new games and patches to fix problems users experience. But we as always monitor the situation in the coming months.

I didn't mean to imply that Feral games would contain malware and need sandboxing. Thanks for the detailed response.

[edddeduck]

ltcommander.data, on 23 August 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

I didn't mean to imply that Feral games would contain malware and need sandboxing. Thanks for the detailed response.

That's OK Happy to explain.

I was just giving the full fat explanation so anyone reading the thread who did not know about sandboxing before they read the thread knew what it was designed for so they will better understand my answer. I know you did not mean anything bad by it.

Edwin

[UmarOMC1]

Got the email from Macgamestore- DOWNLOADING NOW!!! Weighs in at 7GB!!! Go get it!



Edit: I. AM. FLOORED! Wow! Lemme go find a gamepad...!!! I'm typing too much... bye!

Edit #2: GET A GAMEPAD! This game's so much more responsive with a gamepad and feels much better to play... and WOW these graphics! I don't care ONE BIT that it's not DiRT 3, this game is awesome- I turned all graphics to maximum and its still super fluid!

Edited by UmarOMC1, 01 September 2011 - 10:33 PM.

[iRolley]

Oh, true. I had forgotten I ordered that game a while back... when I was younger

My order is still listed as "processing" on feral's site  

[Janichsan]

Quote

The following graphics cards are not supported: ATI X1xxx series, NVIDIA 9400, NVIDIA 7xxx series and Intel GMA series. The following cards require you to have 4GB of System RAM: NVIDIA 320M, Intel HD 3000.

Noooooooooooo!

[UmarOMC1]

iRolley, on 02 September 2011 - 12:47 AM, said:

Oh, true. I had forgotten I ordered that game a while back... when I was younger

My order is still listed as "processing" on feral's site  

*cough*direct download next time*cough*


NOTE: My Logitech Dual Action worked okay, but the analog sticks drift and controlling pisses me off–during Replay/post-race and during the race I have to start holding the stick a tad in one direction so it won't start playing back reverse or drifting the car off the road, respectively... after a little searching I read some forums posts regarding Snow Leopard coming with drivers that recognize PS3 controllers.  Hoping it would work with Lion, I tested one I borrowed from my little brother– it successfully works via Bluetooth and direct USB. For direct USB testing I made sure Bluetooth was completely off on my computer. The beat up PS3 controller handles this game a lot better than the Logitech Crapola.

[alkar]

So let me post my thoughts about DIRT2 :

after trying many of the recents Feral games recently, I can only say i'm utterly disappointed by DiRT 2.

First of all, I can't play the game properly at all with my 8800 GT + 10.7.1 : sometimes (most of the time !), the screen will have like a green veil, and i can't see anything behind it, thus can't play it at all... The only way to get rid of this is to go blindly in the settings and change the resolution... But after 30sec, it's back ! WTF ?

Also, the framerate is really painful : I need to play it in ULTRA LOW to have 40-45fps in the first race in 720p, while i have 20fps fully maxed... Never played DIRT 2 on Windows, but considering that GRID and DiRT 1 played 60fps fully maxed in 720p on Windows, I doubt that DIRT2 would be so slow as well since it isn't that more intensive than these 2 games.

Feral, please first of all make a patch for 8800 GT users on 10.7.1 (all nvidia users ? i don't know) since I can't even see the screen... Oh and don't forget to actually increase the performance, nobody likes to play a game in ultra LOW when you have a 8800GT card.

PS : i know that edddeduck will say i'm a prick, but honestly it's just the plain truth... I'm just reporting, and i'm just an angry customer : why would I praise Feral for such a disappointment and buggy game ?

[Wumpus]

I'll have to be very contrary about DIRT 2 - having been playing it I think its totally awesome and loads of fun. Then again I don't have any performance issues and it runs wonderfully on my iMac. I can see why your angry but your card is also minimum spec so its not surprising you have low performance and need to turn the options off. And while I know people like to compare Windows performance on the same machine you really can't. For one its not the same game, and for two its a different OS which normally always has lower performance compared to its windows counterpart when it comes to gaming.

The green screen problem does sound like an issue though, I'm sure Feral will take care of it or provide you with a solution. Where did you buy the game from?

[alkar]

I bought it from macgames.fr. Also, you should know that you can check your FPS in game going to the graphics settings, it will tell you your FPS. What FPS have you got on the first race in ULTRA settings ? At any point in the race, i'm like at 20fps in 1280x720.
I checked some benchmarks, the 5750 isn't that much better than 8800GT, so it shouldn't boost the game that much. Makes me beginning to think the problem is then again related to poor NVIDIA optimization... Well for sure with that green screen...

[edddeduck]

I knew it would be you Alkar Let me answer your problems in turn.

alkar, on 02 September 2011 - 04:40 AM, said:

First of all, I can't play the game properly at all with my 8800 GT + 10.7.1 : sometimes (most of the time !), the screen will have like a green veil, and i can't see anything behind it, thus can't play it at all... The only way to get rid of this is to go blindly in the settings and change the resolution... But after 30sec, it's back ! WTF ?

Can you make sure you have not modified or touched the application, what you are seeing looks a lot like copy protection kicking in which is caused by modifications to the binary.

alkar, on 02 September 2011 - 04:40 AM, said:

Also, the framerate is really painful : I need to play it in ULTRA LOW to have 40-45fps in the first race in 720p, while i have 20fps fully maxed... Never played DIRT 2 on Windows, but considering that GRID and DiRT 1 played 60fps fully maxed in 720p on Windows, I doubt that DIRT2 would be so slow as well since it isn't that more intensive than these 2 games.

The 8800 card is quite old (2006/2008?) and does not support (on the Mac especially) the features or have the performance of newer graphics cards. Another issue is in general on the Mac high resolutions give you a big performance hit compared to the PC. DiRT 2 in fact is a fair bit more complex (it uses an updated version of the EGO engine compared to DiRT 1). If you drop the resolution you can have more effects turned on, I would suggest if you run at Ultra Low with Particle effects, crowd and water +1 the game has a lot of the sparkle of the higher settings but retains its performance.

alkar, on 02 September 2011 - 04:40 AM, said:

Feral, please first of all make a patch for 8800 GT users on 10.7.1 (all nvidia users ? i don't know) since I can't even see the screen... Oh and don't forget to actually increase the performance, nobody likes to play a game in ultra LOW when you have a 8800GT card.

OpenGL will get faster as Apple Nvidia etc start to clean out any bugs left in the initial release, this as you know always happens with new OSs. In fact I think I recall you complaining about performance when 10.6 was released and also rejoicing when subsequent patches improved things. I am confident the same will happen here.

alkar, on 02 September 2011 - 04:40 AM, said:

PS : i know that edddeduck will say i'm a prick, but honestly it's just the plain truth... I'm just reporting, and i'm just an angry customer : why would I praise Feral for such a disappointment and buggy game ?

You are welcome to your opinion, but for other readers of this thread I will point out the card you mention is an older (now min spec Nvidia) card, you have a potential issue with a damaged installation and you are trying to run high end resolutions when you have a lower specification graphics card. I know the card might perform better on the PC but on the Mac it does not have the same performance. We spent an extra 3 or 4 weeks working with Apple, AMD and NV to increase the performance of the title on Lion and fix some side effects that existed in 10.7.0 (and .1) before we shipped.

If a problem exists and is repeatable we as always will patch the title. I would hope that you contact support and have your issues investigated.

I don't mind people speaking their mind in fact I appreciate any debate be it good or bad as it helps Feral improve, equally if you look to be the only one with a problem contacting the company directly and giving them time to respond and look into your problem before coming up with incorrect and damaging accusations would be appreciated. I get you have a problem, I get you are upset but I hope you can understand that claiming DiRT2 does not work and runs slowly on all machines (and a not so friendly comment towards me personally) based of your own experience with an older card without contacting support at all is not exactly fair.

I reiterate one final time that the game overall (based on the wide range of Mac's we have) performs well but you have to set your settings to the card you have. Feral have always supported games for years after release and plan to keep doing so for Dirt 2 and other games in our library. If you have a problem we will always investigate and patch if needed all you need to do is contact support.

Edwin

p.s. I will be away this weekend so I will not be monitoring the forums but any support emails should be answered by my colleagues on Monday or Tuesday depending on the amount of support over the long weekend.

[Wumpus]

alkar, on 02 September 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

What FPS have you got on the first race in ULTRA settings ?

I get 35 FPS with absolutely everything maxed and a 2560x1440 resolution. That's also with 15 other applications open on my computer.

[UmarOMC1]

I never checked the fps... what's the fps of water thrown out the window with all graphic settings maxed out? ...and yes, I'd prefer a 5xxx card over an 8800GT.

[JaguarGod]

Well, Dirt 2 runs very well on my Mac Pro with everything on high @ 1920X1200. Around 40 fps with vsync and around 65 fps without. A lot of fun to play (though I have already played other versions). Thank you for releasing it for the Mac.

[UmarOMC1]

alkar, on 02 September 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

I checked some benchmarks, the 5750 isn't that much better than 8800GT...

Looked up the 8800GT on videocardbenchmark.net That card's just slower than a Radeon 3870, slower than the 4xxx series and can't touch the 5xxx series cards (the 5870 scores a 2,727 based on 4920 samples)... the 5750 scores a 1,502 (3485 samples) while the 8800GT scores a 966 (7621 samples)— over 1 1/2 times the performance difference [between the two cards you mentioned]... upgrade that card, you'll thank yourself!

[alkar]

@UmarOMC1 : what you are saying doesn't make any sense because low end 4xxx or 5xxx are less powerful than 8800GT... Obviously a 4870 or 5870 is more powerful though.. About the 3870 ? Well, it depends of the game, when I bought it back then I remember that in some games the cards were on par. Also, ATI Radeon 5750 is far from being HIGH end, even though it's a 5xxx...

@edddeduck, you were right, my installation was corrupted, I redownloaded the game and now I don't have the weird veil on my screen. While I can now play the game, it doesn't change the fact that it runs the same (~20fps and sometimes it's jittery like some frame skipping). And FYI, 720p isn't HIGH END resolution, it's really low... Most people here for example will run a game at a much high resolution, even on laptops !

And i'm not the only one to complain about performances, see that poor guy review with a 9600GT mobility here http://www.macgamest...ct/1951/DiRT-2/ ... His computer is far from being bad, 6fps is no excuse IMO. I bet you he has 30fps fully maxed in Direct3D (Windows). Something is clearly wrong with NVIDIA and this game, don't make me think otherwise. And about Lion having poor drivers or what not : well I don't agree with that, they might suck but they are at least as good as in 10.6.8 from my experience in other games I tried and allow me to play games like StarCraft 2 in 1080p (1920x1080 !) fully maxed at ~40fps average, same for portal 2 with msaa 2x...

Dirt2 might be GPU intensive, IT'S possible to make it run better if the Windows version is 3 times faster on my rig. People are happy that the game is crawling at 20fps on their rig ? I'm not... Even 30fps is so-so...

If I have some time, I will try the Windows demo version on Windows 7, Wine and Cider, just for fun and compare it.

[alkar]

It's me again, and this email was supposed to be sent to edddeduck but his mail box is full.. So I felt free to post it in the forum (PLEASE read it edddeduck or ANY Feral dev):

Hi,

Sorry for harassing you, but I thought this "breakthrough" I made needed a PM because it will just help not only me but you and probably other users.

I was trying to tweak the game to run in Windowed editing the file Preferences Data like you suggested in other games and noticed there was an address to the Sparkle server that checks for game updates.

I was like : hey why not trying it, maybe Feral already pushed an update i'm not aware of (here :                         <value name="SUFeedURL" type="string">http://support.feral...drm.xml</value>).

And I saw this patch, installed it, tried it, and then noticed the game ran much faster, even to the naked eyes.. Mostly, the stuttering i experienced, even in the main menu were gone, and the overall game was smoother (although still slow).
So I was happy and thought you guys did actually listen to me... And then I noticed the .app was an old one, probably from a beta or whatever, since it's from July ! So i'm kinda astonished that an older build of the game runs a lot faster !

Here are the results of the in game benchmark with Retail .app vs "Beta .app" : <average min_fps="17.976830" av_fps="24.299149" min_fps_ms="55.627163" av_fps_ms="41.153706" /> (BETA) vs <average min_fps="13.934687" av_fps="18.832651" min_fps_ms="71.763367" av_fps_ms="53.099270" /> (retail).

See, average fps is 18fps vs 24.3fps... Not a lot better, but still better, same visuals, and also as told earlier, no skipping/stuttering.

Finally, a friend lent me his Radeon 5870 from his Mac Pro, and I benchmarked the game as well. I noticed the same : beta is ~49fps vs final retail 39fps !

So, all this to say : something is definitely wrong with the final game and see, I didn't do any magic in game settings or anything like that and my "low end" 8800GT spitted out even more FPS... And who knows if an earlier beta of the game would be even faster ?

If a beta can be faster on my Mac, I'm sure a future patch can be even more faster.

I'm not sure you are the right guy to report all this, but it would be great if you can forward my reports to your QA team or whatever so you guys can push a proper patch and fix current issues.

Hope you had a nice week end,

Alkar

[UmarOMC1]

alkar, on 04 September 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:

@UmarOMC1 : what you are saying doesn't make any sense because low end 4xxx or 5xxx are less powerful than 8800GT... Obviously a 4870 or 5870 is more powerful though.. About the 3870 ? Well, it depends of the game, when I bought it back then I remember that in some games the cards were on par. Also, ATI Radeon 5750 is far from being HIGH end, even though it's a 5xxx...

And i'm not the only one to complain about performances, see that poor guy review with a 9600GT mobility here http://www.macgamest...ct/1951/DiRT-2/ ... His computer is far from being bad, 6fps is no excuse IMO.

Thanks for reminding me to leave a good review...!

[edddeduck]

alkar, on 04 September 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

If a beta can be faster on my Mac, I'm sure a future patch can be even more faster.

I'm not sure you are the right guy to report all this, but it would be great if you can forward my reports to your QA team or whatever so you guys can push a proper patch and fix current issues.

Hope you had a nice weekend,

Alkar

Hi Alkar,

The version you mentioned might be faster but assuming that speed did not have consequences is a bit premature I don't want to air the issues with that build in public as it was never meant to be played by anyone outside of Codemasters, Apple and Feral. Sometimes something looks faster but you get side effects or missing effects. We had many builds some with things like 3D positional audio disabled etc so although it might look faster that is likely down to something being specially setup in that build.

I will not be commenting further on test hack builds during development however as I said if we can get more speed (without reducing stability, adding stutters or removing functionality) we will.

Edwin