I could argue that Empire Strikes Back did this too. All they managed to do (other than train Luke) was escape with their lives, losing Solo to a bounty hunter in the process.
Whereas I think one major thing was accomplished in Last Jedi. Luke's journey was to go from "what difference can one man make against the First Order" (his speech to Rey) to stepping up and finding a way to make that difference. "The rebellion is reborn today. This war is just beginning.." They did gloss over the sacrifices-- the rebels took a serious pounding. But it was about instilling hope, not about firepower.
But, how was the rebellion reborn? Instilling hope is great and its one of the central themes of star wars but what tangible thing happened to back that up and instill hope? The rebels got their popsnizzle kicked in and Luke showed up as a ghost for a few seconds to frak with Kylo?
In Rogue One (I don't think that movie is perfect either), the rebels get their popsnizzle kicked in too, and everyone dies, but every death was preceded by someone doing their important bit to advance the plan. Jyn's speech about "taking every chance we get until our chances are spent". There were tangible actions and sacrifices backing up the hope that fueled the rebel alliance.
I would say that Solo getting captured is a pretty large plot point, also Vader being Luke's dad (spoilers kids). But I can't disagree that compared to the other two there are significantly less things moving. Perhaps its just the fate of the middle movie in a trilogy?
That was a great scene. Kylo meant what he said. He's oddly sincere for a villain. One of the reasons I don't miss Snoke..
He's honestly started to feel a bit like Revan to me. He's clearly got an evil and severe side but thats not all he is. He truly is a just a damaged and complicated individual. I'd say he's the best character in Star Wars.
Fair enough! I saw some real flaws myself, things we haven't even touched on, but the good outweighed the bad for me. I have friends who feel as you do so I sympathize.
Yeah theres a few things I'm leaving out, I wanna try and at least be a little focused so Im not just going on tangents
Ive seen people in real life be all over the place with this movie as well, it's definitely interesting.
I heard one patently ridiculous tinfoil hat theory that Disney made TLJ polarizing so that people would see it twice just to be sure of their opinion on it and make $$$. Im starting to get a little suspicious...
Star Wars from being essentially little more than the Skywalker family saga
I mean, Kathleen Kennedy's statement about the films following the skywalkers still applies. Ben Solo is still a Skywalker, and he is clearly a large focus of these movies, so that hasn't changed.
Luke has been pushed of the pedestal as shining hero, becoming fallible, but also more human in the process.
I was a fan of this, I wanted more of this sort of "grounded" behavior in this movie. I will say though that it is quite a jump that Luke found good in Vader, known for murdering thousands, but Ben is a kid who's like maybe a little dark sidey so he wants to kill him immediately. That transition is definitely possible but it was quite jarring considering how fast it happened. Not the only jarring part of this movie.
Kylo has further been fleshed out, and gets a better and more believable motivation for his turn to evil than Darth Vader ever had. Plus, he both fails to be a worthy successor to Vader and also surpasses him at the same time: he fails by still being an ill-tempered youth with uncontrolled anger issues, but he surpasses Vader by achieving what his grandfather never did, which is killing his master and becoming Supreme Leader in his place.
I concur, Kylo is a ridiculously well written and complicated character, I hope that keeps up. I'm still disappointed about that throne room conversation though, because he literally said leave the past behind, Jedi and Sith, and then continued to be a sith who wanted to rule the galaxy. What exactly was he leaving behind?
Maybe JJ Abrams will deliver some more information about him in Episode IX (I mean, it's his character), but overall, the series is – in my opinion – better off without him, exactly because Johnson killed off the underdeveloped villain in favour to the better developed one.
I don't think having Kylo kill him was the incorrect choice but i think not giving him at least some sort story or character was just Rian Johnson not wanting to. It wouldn't have been easy, so i understand why he didn't want to think of a backstory for someone who was clearly propped up to be the emperor, but it could've been done. Like even having some of his lines with Kylo in the beginning reference his past in a vague way would've at least done something for him.
You mean unlike for instance RotJ jumped from cute fuzzy teddy bear shenanigans to a dramatic confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor, back to Chewbacca imitating the Tarzan yell in the middle of a battle against the Empire in which many of the cute fuzzy teddy bears die?
Hey, Rotj is regarded as the worst of the original trilogy and Im sure thats one of the reasons. I have no illusions about the OT being the pinnacle of filmmaking, im not old enough to have those nostalgia goggles (no offense geezers on here cough cough Battle Cat Frost). Im probably more critical of the OT than the average star wars fan, so I absolutely apply that criticism to both movies.
…and Force smashing him into the AT-M6's consoles. I think Kylo has – at least for the time being – pretty much established his dominance.
I think that'd be super cheap if Hux just gave up after this movie, and further doing a disservice to his character. He was already made into a gag this entire movie, if they make him Kylo's punching bag and submissive then his character is just bleh. Whats the point of him? Isn't the Empire/First Order supposed to be scary and make the whole galaxy bow to them because of how scared they are? And thats the dude they have running things?
This is also something you could say even more about the classic trilogy: aside the few scenes added at the end of RotJ SE showing the celebrations, you get few ideas about which impact the Empire and the Rebellion have on the galaxy. It required Rogue One and probably the upcoming solo Solo movie to show that. In TLJ on the other hand, I suspect that one of the things Johnson tried to achieve with the Canto Bight sideplot was to show that the fight between the Resistance and the First Order in fact barely affects the rest of the galaxy, except to make a bunch of arms dealers very rich. I would say that this part didn't really work, though.
Again I wholeheartedly agree, this was a weakness in the OT and oddly enough a strength in the PT. People say the The Clone Wars TV show complemented the Prequels really well, and its because despite their numerous flaws they had pretty good world building, and it allowed great stories to be told on the side. Some of my favorite EU novels (legends now) were based on events around the time of the PT, and they complemented those movies very well.
The thing is, if he's trying to say that it barely affects anyone, then what the hell are we even watching this movie for? If none of this matters to the larger galaxy then why do we care? Maybe thats why I'm so not inspired to see Episode 9.
Wow I said I didn't want to go on a tangent but look at this monstrosity. Sorry everyone.
EDIT: I think I've talked way too much, I'll step back for a bit.