Jump to content


Firearms


  • Please log in to reply
151 replies to this topic

#141 Frost

Frost

    Secretary of Offense

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6175 posts
  • Steam ID:CaptFrost
  • Location:Republic of Texas
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:02 PM

View PostG_Player, on 05 January 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

With all the nut cases running around lately, I'm seriously considering getting a concealed carry permit
(my longbow doesn't conceal at all and a quiver full of bodkin-tipped arrows won't fit under a winter coat).

Now guys, don't laugh...

I wear a kilt most of the time (except, of course, during this harsh winter) and plan on strapping it to my upper thigh under the kilt.

I should like a 9MM that shoots sweetly (not a lot of kick), will fit under the kilt strapped to my thigh, and POINTS DOWNWARD.

What do you guys recommend?

I've had my License to Carry (formerly Concealed Handgun License) for 12 years... in that time I've been shot at by a lunatic one time, just this past summer in fact, and I wasn't carrying. Let that be a lesson: make sure you get something you can carry with you all the time. Or alternately, get something you prefer, and then a backup that can be carried even when you're dressed very poorly for CCing. Also you don't have to be in the hood for there to be a nut, I was somewhere you would take your kids without a second thought. And lest anyone mention gun laws, the guy in question is a felon so can't legally possess a gun anywhere in the United States in the first place so he is already ignoring the law. I got a tiny Beretta Pico to go alongside my regular setup just so that I would have something that I could conceal even if I was in shorts and a light T-shirt in the middle of the Texas summer.

If you're manly enough to wear a kilt, I ain't gonna criticize! Pretty damn good concealment option, honestly. You could hide my Mark 23 under there, not that you'd probably want to.

Not sure what you mean by points downward. What's your budget? My go-to recommendation for a 9mm that is extremely well-built, superbly reliable, with very controllable recoil and great accuracy but without a high price would be any member of the Beretta 92 series (M9, M9a1, M9a3, 92FS, 92A1, etc.). Most of them can be had around the $500-600 mark which is very reasonable. M9a3 is the exception at around $800-900 because it's sporting piles of upgrades. If you have big paws like me or at least medium sized ones you will probably like the standard grip. If not, the Vertec grip is much friendlier to smaller hands and has a feel closer to a Colt 1911 or equivalent 1911 clone.

92s, due to high mass for the caliber, their very low bore axis, and the Walther P38-derived locking block system are exceptional with recoil, and can best be described as giving you more of a "push" feeling than a rapid snap. Very easy to control and be accurate with with a little practice.

If you've got a big budget, the HK USP9 is fantastic and features HK's patented recoil reduction system like the rest of the USP line. Think of them as downsized versions of my Mark 23 that are more "normal" size. Like the 92s, it is superbly shootable and has a push feel to the recoil rather than a snap, although for different reasons. The USP is probably one of the most unkillable pistol designs in existence as well and will survive abuse that will destroy other weapons. But, you pay for it in price.

The Sig P22x series (P226, P228, P229, etc.) are pretty good guns, but they have a crazy high bore axis and you'll probably find you need a lot more practice to shoot one consistently and accurately versus their competition. Their price range also puts them in the same price class as the USP, and IMO the USP is superior. Sig is still good quality though generally. Although I do not favor the Sig P320... at all.

If you prefer a more angled grip and light trigger pull with a much more affordable price, HK VP9, Walther PPQ, and Beretta APX are all good options. I'd give the edge to the VP9 as it's a much more durable piece of kit than most of its direct competitors.

There's also the option of Blocks (Glocks) and things like the Springfield XD. They may work for you. You won't find me recommending them. Their price is amazingly affordable. On every single other metric, their competition is better.
Kestrel (Falcon NW Tiki) – 4.0 GHz i7 8086K / 32GB RAM / 2TB Samsung 960 Pro M.2, 2x480GB Intel 730 (RAID0), 10TB STX BarraCuda Pro / TITAN V 12GB
Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / 4TB Samsung 860 Pro / GeForce GT 650M 1GB
Antimony (PowerBook G4 2001) – 1.0 GHz PPC 7455 / 1GB RAM / 512GB Micron M600 / Radeon 9000 64MB

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#142 G_Player

G_Player

    Fanatic

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 85 posts
  • Location:Great Plains, Merica'!

Posted 06 January 2018 - 03:25 AM

Thank you, Frost for the informative reply.  : )

To answer you questions:

"Points Downward", refers to the direction of the inner thigh holster (rather lose a toe than have a lead slug up the ol' Hershey Highway).
My budget consists of selling my S&W .357 Revolver 6" Long Barrel (fired less than 20 rounds out of it), a single-shell-at-a-time 410 shotgun given to me that I've never fired (I don't have ammo for it). And making up any difference in cash. The average American male is 5' 9" tall. I stand 5' 7" and have small hands. Open heart surgery last year means that anyone who singles me out to start a fight with, means a death sentence for me. My ribcage is held together by a few small titanium plates and screws. I looked at my hand-crafted yew longbow and cedar arrows, and wept.

I'll print out your reply and take it to a gunsmith so he can show me the weapons you write about and elaborate on your comments.

Great advise you've given which I shall explore it all. Is there anything else you can think of? Or that I should know?
Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff!

#143 the Battle Cat

the Battle Cat

    Carnage Served Raw

  • Admin
  • 17567 posts
  • Location:Citadel City, Lh'owon
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 06 January 2018 - 11:35 AM

Huh... usually when a Scotsman reaches under his kilt and pulls out his gun it's with friendly intentions.  What you want is a compact 9mm, also called a pocket gun.  There is an article about that in Guns and Blammo.  The pistols are shooting 9mm parabellum like in a full sized 9mm pistol so there will be a little more kick because there is less metal mass to help dampen the recoil.  If kick is very important to you, I would suggest going with a smaller caliber pistol.
Gary Simmons
the Battle Cat

#144 DirtyHarry50

DirtyHarry50

    Special Snowflake

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1796 posts
  • Steam Name:DirtyHarry
  • Steam ID:dirtyharry2
  • Location:North Carolina, USA

Posted 06 January 2018 - 07:23 PM

This is my weapon. This my gun. This is for....
“The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” — Bertrand Russell

#145 Frost

Frost

    Secretary of Offense

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6175 posts
  • Steam ID:CaptFrost
  • Location:Republic of Texas
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:59 PM

View PostG_Player, on 06 January 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

Thank you, Frost for the informative reply.  : )

To answer you questions:

"Points Downward", refers to the direction of the inner thigh holster (rather lose a toe than have a lead slug up the ol' Hershey Highway).
My budget consists of selling my S&W .357 Revolver 6" Long Barrel (fired less than 20 rounds out of it), a single-shell-at-a-time 410 shotgun given to me that I've never fired (I don't have ammo for it). And making up any difference in cash. The average American male is 5' 9" tall. I stand 5' 7" and have small hands. Open heart surgery last year means that anyone who singles me out to start a fight with, means a death sentence for me. My ribcage is held together by a few small titanium plates and screws. I looked at my hand-crafted yew longbow and cedar arrows, and wept.

I'll print out your reply and take it to a gunsmith so he can show me the weapons you write about and elaborate on your comments.

Great advise you've given which I shall explore it all. Is there anything else you can think of? Or that I should know?

Gotcha. I have never actually heard of a holster that points upward at the user... you'd probably have to look far harder to find one of those.

Only thing I have to add is that unless you have large hands for your size, you might find the standard grips of models of the Beretta 92 a bit of a chunk to hold (but still try them; they're an extremely popular weapon and for good reason and finding one to try should be a non-issue). If you like the platform, you might find Vertec grips much more to your liking. See below: those are the three military versions of the 92. The M9a3, the tan one, has a Vertec grip (also available on civilian models). It's thinner with a flat backstrap, and much more friendly to shooters with smaller hands while retaining all the other features that make the platform popular.

Posted Image

If you have smaller hands you will likely find a USP's grip to be pretty fat. Something like the HK VP9 or Beretta APX might be most to your liking. Grips are interchangeable so you can make them larger or smaller as you see fit, they are very lightweight, and with a very low bore axis (meaning the barrel is much closer to your hand) making controlling them under rapid fire considerably easier than most guns without as practice.

I'll also note that Glock has a big following due to its price, it is ubiquitous due to Glock basically giving away their pistols to police departments, so expect a lot of disagreement with my opinion there. As a longtime shooter who's used a LOT of different platforms I still stand by that opinion. Glocks are often modded into fine weapons due to their great aftermarket, but why buy the gun and then spend a ton more modding it into something good when you can get something as good or better right off the bat that doesn't need modding?

I would recommend you don't let people upsell you to .40 S&W. If you're using modern hollowpoints, the size advantage over 9mm is negligible for effectiveness at stopping what you're shooting at, it costs a lot more so you can afford to practice less, and you lose several rounds of capacity over the same pistol in 9mm. All for a snappier recoil that you need more practice to overcome in rapid fire.

Also, think about shopping online for deals and even buying off of GunBroker (think eBay for guns) before you buy from a retailer. Just as an example, my mom decided she wants her license this year and is shopping around for what works for her, I've offered to take her to the range multiple times and try all kinds of things, and she ended up settling on a VP9. Academy wants $630 + tax for a standard one off the shelf. If she wanted the upgraded VP9 Tactical with the threaded barrel, tritium night sights, and so on, they want $799 + tax. Meanwhile there are dealers on GunBroker selling VP9-Ts for less than what Academy wants for a bone stock VP9. You can save quite a bit.

For reference, VP9-T:

Posted Image

Finally, if you're a new and inexperienced shooter, there's also the factor of a manual safety to consider. Striker-fired pistols (as opposed to pistols that fire using an external hammer) generally don't have a manual safety. The little nub on the trigger, such as that on the VP9 above, functions as the safety. You need to consciously be careful you don't accidentally pull the trigger. Someone who shoots a lot, that's no real concern. Someone who is new to it, you might like the extra safety factor. Another reason the Beretta 92 is a popular weapon is it is about as safe as you get. You have a manual safety that actually rotates the firing pin plunger away from the hammer so it's physically impossible to fire. You also have a firing pin disconnect so that the pistol physically cannot fire no matter how hard you hit it, drop it, throw it, etc. And it has a heavy double action pull on the first round, so even with the safety off and your finger on the trigger, the odds of you accidentally pulling it are extremely low. Basically, you have to be a rank moron not observing anything resembling proper gun safety to get an accidental or negligent discharge from a 92.

(Speaking of which, if you're not familiar with the term, DA/SA or double-action/single-action means the first round, if you don't cock the hammer manually, then pulling the trigger is heavy as it cocks and drops the hammer with one trigger pull. Subsequent shots automatically cock the hammer after every shot, so you have a lighter single-action pull that simply releases the hammer in order to fire when you pull the trigger. Beretta 92s, HK USPs, and Sig P22x pistols are good examples of DA/SA pistols).
Kestrel (Falcon NW Tiki) – 4.0 GHz i7 8086K / 32GB RAM / 2TB Samsung 960 Pro M.2, 2x480GB Intel 730 (RAID0), 10TB STX BarraCuda Pro / TITAN V 12GB
Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / 4TB Samsung 860 Pro / GeForce GT 650M 1GB
Antimony (PowerBook G4 2001) – 1.0 GHz PPC 7455 / 1GB RAM / 512GB Micron M600 / Radeon 9000 64MB

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#146 Frost

Frost

    Secretary of Offense

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6175 posts
  • Steam ID:CaptFrost
  • Location:Republic of Texas
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 08 January 2018 - 02:16 PM

On the Mark 23: oh my gawd. I haven't fired one in years but I remember it being stupidly accurate. Took mine out for its first trip. That is an understatement. Set up a cinder block at about 25 yards. Five shots of .45ACP FMJ blew it apart. So I picked the largest chunk and shot at that. Blew that apart. Picked the next largest chunk and shot that. Blew it apart. Holy popsnizzle this thing is a frakking laser. Pistol ranges are almost silly. I need to go to the rifle range and see what kind of groups I can get at 100 yards. :ohmy:
Kestrel (Falcon NW Tiki) – 4.0 GHz i7 8086K / 32GB RAM / 2TB Samsung 960 Pro M.2, 2x480GB Intel 730 (RAID0), 10TB STX BarraCuda Pro / TITAN V 12GB
Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / 4TB Samsung 860 Pro / GeForce GT 650M 1GB
Antimony (PowerBook G4 2001) – 1.0 GHz PPC 7455 / 1GB RAM / 512GB Micron M600 / Radeon 9000 64MB

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#147 the Battle Cat

the Battle Cat

    Carnage Served Raw

  • Admin
  • 17567 posts
  • Location:Citadel City, Lh'owon
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:47 AM

The old Colt M1911A  I carried in Vietnam was an amazing piece of military hardware.  Once on a boring day I took the thing for a little target practice.  I picked out the biggest can of C-rats I had and set it on a log then backed off about 25 feet.  After missing the damn thing with an entire magazine I decided to move up halfway.  After missing with another magazine I said the Marine equivalent of "gosh darn it all" ... or was it "golly shucks" ... sort of forget now, and got up point blank close and burned 7 more rounds.  I decided then that it was throwing the rounds over my shoulder and if I didn't stop I'd shoot myself in the forehead.  But hey, at least it was loud as frak.
Gary Simmons
the Battle Cat

#148 G_Player

G_Player

    Fanatic

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 85 posts
  • Location:Great Plains, Merica'!

Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:48 PM

IF, for any reason, you cannot read this, post a reply as I have copied the entire article to a TextEdit document.

How to get your hands on a historic M1911 pistol from the US Army stockpile
By Allison Barriel / Fox News

http://www.foxnews.c...-stockpile.html

you're welcome  ; )
Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff!

#149 Frost

Frost

    Secretary of Offense

  • Forum Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6175 posts
  • Steam ID:CaptFrost
  • Location:Republic of Texas
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 10 January 2018 - 03:58 AM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on 09 January 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

The old Colt M1911A  I carried in Vietnam was an amazing piece of military hardware.  Once on a boring day I took the thing for a little target practice.  I picked out the biggest can of C-rats I had and set it on a log then backed off about 25 feet.  After missing the damn thing with an entire magazine I decided to move up halfway.  After missing with another magazine I said the Marine equivalent of "gosh darn it all" ... or was it "golly shucks" ... sort of forget now, and got up point blank close and burned 7 more rounds.  I decided then that it was throwing the rounds over my shoulder and if I didn't stop I'd shoot myself in the forehead.  But hey, at least it was loud as frak.

In the M1911's defense, I don't think we procured any new ones post-WWII. I imagine what little life was left in them after World War II and Korea got beaten and corroded out of them by Vietnam. That barrel's lands and grooves had probably been worn down to a smoothbore. If the military did as pants-on-head-retarded a job on pistol maintenance back then as they've done with the M9 in more recent years, I'm surprised it survived until the 1980s. 1911 in civilian hands has a pretty good track record, with its only major downsides being low capacity and tending to need parts to be fitted for optimal performance instead of being true drop-in like modern designs.

Highlights from the M9's career:

- Procuring a defective batch of ammo from Winchester that was loaded to proof pressures and caused slides to crack and fly off into the shooter's face. Blamed Beretta instead of owning up to the mistake.

- Beretta sued Uncle Sam for defamation for the above and won easily, then engineered at their own expense a slide change that would catch a broken slide from flying backward since it was unknown how much more of that ammo was in the supply chain.

- Handing the TDP (technical data package) to third tier manufacturers instead of approved ones and procuring bottom dollar parts and then blaming the platform when the junk parts break well ahead of schedule.

- Taking multiple pistols marked as destroyed and destined for scrap and assembling them into one working pistol that is a rattle trap that falls apart, then grumbling about the platform as a whole being faulty. Think cobbling together a truck, engine included, from the junkyard parts of three destroyed trucks with 200,000 miles on them and then saying their design sucks when the frankentruck doesn't work very well.

- Ordering magazines from Checkmate for deployment to desert conditions. Insisted on a gritty phosphated finish. Checkmate warned using that would catch fine sand like a sponge and cause jamming, suggested anti-friction finish instead. Order for phosphated finish was placed anyway. Phosphated mags caught fine sand like a sponge and caused jamming.

- Mysteriously, magazines supplied by Mec Gar and Beretta subsidiary MDS with the recommended finish worked fine in sand. Checkmate was blamed for supplying faulty magazines.

- Continuing to use the 1st generation locking block that breaks around 8,000-10,000 rounds despite the civilian models being on the third generation locking block design by now that lasts ~30,000 rounds and complaining about how frequently locking blocks break. Justification is the 1st gen block is what was officially adopted in 1986.

- Overhauled model with all modern advancements, with things like threaded barrel and night sights standard and anti-friction coatings submitted by Beretta in 2015 at a cheaper price than the original pistol gets rejected for having too many changes despite Colt's submitted changes for the M4A1 carbine being drastically more significant deviations from the original design and getting a pass.

- Finally replaced by XM17 starting 2017 with Sig Sauer's faultiest model after a fraction of the testing the XM9 trials in the 80s had, using a pistol that has no drop safety and has the potential to cause friendly fire when dropped like something from 100 years ago. Claims Sig underbid Beretta by offering $200 per pistol and the taxpayer got a great deal. Then reveals Sig sold them $1800 for holsters, parts, and ammo to go with it, multiplying per unit cost 10x.

Welcome to small arms management by bureaucrats. :cool:

Although a happy upset to all of that, which was mainly Big Army doing its thing, the Marines approached Beretta in 2006 about updating the 20 year-old platform specifically for the USMC and Beretta was happy to oblige. They beefed up the dust cover and added an accessory rail, upgraded the locking block to third generation, beveled the magazine well for easier insertion under stress, applied sand-resistant coatings to the magazines, a much stronger trigger guard that could survive the Marines' request of being able to beat someone to death with it and then pound in a tent peg, added more aggressive checkering to the grip for a better hold with hands or gloves slick with blood or grease, added a radius cut to the top of the grip allowing a bit higher grip on the pistol, and moved from dot-and-post sights to more modern 3-dot sights. That became the M9a1. The Marine Corps ordered a few hundred thousand of them and still love them and recently ordered even more.
Kestrel (Falcon NW Tiki) – 4.0 GHz i7 8086K / 32GB RAM / 2TB Samsung 960 Pro M.2, 2x480GB Intel 730 (RAID0), 10TB STX BarraCuda Pro / TITAN V 12GB
Iridium (MacBook Pro Mid-2012) – 2.7 GHz i7 3820QM / 16GB RAM / 4TB Samsung 860 Pro / GeForce GT 650M 1GB
Antimony (PowerBook G4 2001) – 1.0 GHz PPC 7455 / 1GB RAM / 512GB Micron M600 / Radeon 9000 64MB

Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#150 the Battle Cat

the Battle Cat

    Carnage Served Raw

  • Admin
  • 17567 posts
  • Location:Citadel City, Lh'owon
  • Pro Member:Yes

Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:56 AM

That pistol was very very old.  No blueing left, the grips worn smooth, the works.  The 1911A1 I have now is a match grade pistol.  It promised never to shoot me in the forehead.
Gary Simmons
the Battle Cat

#151 ipickert55

ipickert55

    Honorary Special Snowflake

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 489 posts
  • Steam Name:Triton
  • Steam ID:triton98
  • Location:Monterey, California

Posted 10 January 2018 - 04:05 PM

Yeah, I've fired a .22 once, take that Frost bet you're jealous...




I also fired a .357 once but it was without earmuffs so i only did it once and never again lol
Maybe it really is all cocks in the end.

Poseidon - Retina MacBook Pro Mid 2014, macOS High Seirra 10.13.x, 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3, NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M 2048 MB

My GOG name is ipickert55, feel free to add me!

#152 DirtyHarry50

DirtyHarry50

    Special Snowflake

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1796 posts
  • Steam Name:DirtyHarry
  • Steam ID:dirtyharry2
  • Location:North Carolina, USA

Posted 10 January 2018 - 05:30 PM

It really makes me angry that it is even possible that our young men would be sent into combat with anything less than the very best possible weaponry available. A fitting punishment would be sending those responsible to the front lines with the hand picked worst of the same popsnizzle. That is not realistic but jail time ought to be.

Otherwise, Iíve really enjoyed reading this discussion and learned a lot from it.
“The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” — Bertrand Russell