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Steam Link coming to iOS and tvOS


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#41 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 03:21 PM

The large font was a mistake on my part due to using a mobile device on the old forum which for some reason made it tiny. So I selected everything and guessed incorrectly at the size. I noticed afterward but didn't feel like fixing it.

Frost, there are plenty of niche markets that are profitable. High end audio comes to mind. Recognizing reality does not mean I am ten years behind in my thinking. It simply means I am a realist.

I'd like to see some data from a reputable business source about relative game sales market share for PC, consoles and mobile games worldwide. Last I knew the order was: Mobile, Consoles, PC. Feel free to correct me with data covering all three from a recent reputable source with a link to it if you like. I am not above being corrected but I need proof.

I agree with Sneaky that everything we see today is just work being done for the future he describes. However, the Internet itself is the biggest problem and it will take the longest time to solve in all likelihood.

In home streaming will never be mainstream. It's a niche market. I'm glad business is good for those serving it but it is what it is. That's not being mired in yesterday. It's a realistic assessment of today and future prospects where the real end game of gaming Netflix is a long way off. For now, the next best things are Microsoft Game Pass and EA Access which both eschew streaming over the Internet because it isn't feasible yet in no small part thanks to the current state of internet service at least in the US.
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#42 Matt Diamond

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 08:18 PM

Side A: "Streaming works okay for us and we like it."
Side B: "Nobody wants it" or "It's a niche market"

I'm not seeing the point of this argument, frankly. Unless I missed something, the first group of people didn't claim much other than that they personally are interested in streaming options. So what is the second group of people trying to convince them of? That they are wrong to want it because it's a niche market? Or that they don't know their own minds?
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#43 Frost

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:08 AM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 29 May 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Side A: "Streaming works okay for us and we like it."
Side B: "Nobody wants it" or "It's a niche market"

I'm not seeing the point of this argument, frankly. Unless I missed something, the first group of people didn't claim much other than that they personally are interested in streaming options. So what is the second group of people trying to convince them of? That they are wrong to want it because it's a niche market? Or that they don't know their own minds?

I'm putting my money on, "Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Savior Xbox One?" :P

Regardless, I don't care if I convince anyone. I don't need to. I don't stream regularly, but when I do, it works for me. I have customers making buying decisions based on it and it's not exactly one out of every 20. You can say, "Nu-uh, no one's using it" all day long, and well, okay, I wish you well in your alternate reality. And I wish Valve success bringing it to Apple devices, especially the Apple TV. Because I don't know how many times showing off the Shield TV has gotten a "that's awesome, I didn't even know that could be done! Do they have that for Apple TV too? I use Apple devices" and I've inwardly grumbled about the state of Apple and gaming and said no. Maybe soon I can say, "yeah, absolutely, let me show you how!"
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#44 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:45 AM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 29 May 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Side A: "Streaming works okay for us and we like it."
Side B: "Nobody wants it" or "It's a niche market"

I'm not seeing the point of this argument, frankly. Unless I missed something, the first group of people didn't claim much other than that they personally are interested in streaming options. So what is the second group of people trying to convince them of? That they are wrong to want it because it's a niche market? Or that they don't know their own minds?

Yeah, you did miss something. There was peace in the valley until Apple revoked the app approval. This thread was about streaming games on Apple hardware originally. Some discussion ensued about Apple canning it. I detailed my own experience with streaming in general and Steam in particular. I suggested getting a console since it just works.

At this point I'm the one who started getting schooled on how great streaming is. Let's get the order of events right here.

What were they trying to convince me of, that I am wrong to reject it after buying the hardware, using it and being dissatisfied for good reason or that I don't know my own mind? You'd have to ask them about that. Am I not allowed to have an experience based opinion and share it?

Then this took off into Frost's Nvidia business being the authority here, etc. My comment there was simply that I'm glad that works well for some and his business is good.

I'm sorry but I am not going to say what the crew wants to hear all the time just to fit in with the cool kids. I'm going to say what I honestly think. I said that stuff working for some folks is all well and good but it's not a mainstream thing for a variety of reasons which I have already mentioned.

Trying to return this to topic, I posted this:

On topic here, about Steam on Apple hardware, not PCs, Nvidia Shield or Xbox for that matter my entire point has been that streaming PC games to a television sucks because in most cases it does. One more time, if it was great everybody would be all over it. They aren't. That right there says it all. My suggestion in light of this and therefore also on topic is just get a fraking console if you want to play games on your TV.  They are made for this and excel at it.

The idea here was to offer information based on personal experience using Valve's hardware to people who haven't tried this yet. I don't recommend it. For those who do want to try this, Frost is selling a solution I assume he guarantees you will be happy with so message him about that would be my advice.

I am not on an Xbox crusade Frost. Sure, I talk about stuff I like. So do you with nvidia. So what? I suggested  an alternative that I know to work well. So did you. The difference is I don't make remarks about you being on a crusade just because your ideas and mine are not in agreement.

You must also consider me to be an idiot. As if crusading for some game console would ever change anyone's mind around here and why would I care other  than to share my thoughts on something I have fun with.

By the way, idiot here did his homework on your assertions regarding PC and Console revenue. In terms of money the order goes mobile (by far), console and PC gaming is heading up the rear by a substantial margin. Since I reside in an alternate universe I'll let you research that for yourself if you want facts instead of fiction. My source provides data to the major publishers in the industry. According to them, revenues for PC gaming are projected to decline in the coming years as console and mobile are projected to increase. I'm not surprised personally.
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#45 Frost

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 02:25 AM

I don't consider you an idiot at all. I disagree with you completely on the assertion than the gamers who stream or want to play PC games in the living room are a niche market and extreme use case, which you did paint it as. They're not. Or that it's somehow complicated or inconvenient and intentionally avoiding the path of least resistance. It isn't, it's not, and the whole POINT of it is creating a path of lesser resistance. macdude for instance hasn't heard of a gamer with kids having any interest in streaming. Okay. That's who's had the biggest interest in streaming from what I run into, because they can game while hanging on the couch in the room with the wife and kids without taking over the TV or leaving to another part of the house. I don't see it, but maybe we run in different circles.

And the :P denotes sarcasm/joking/tongue-in-cheek on the internet since at least the 1990s, good grief.

I don't hate you Harry, I can have a heated discussion and completely think the other guy's position is bonkers without developing a personal grudge against him. We disagree. We're still hanging on IMG and you're still a cool guy in my books. Okay?

For the record, my pimping the Shield is not because I have them as a bundle option with computer sales (among MANY other things), but rather when I got back into PC gaming seriously in 2013 I was sick to DEEEEATH of swapping cables and/or moving the damn computer because I wanted to play a game on the TV rather than at my desk. Being able to chuck the Shield TV unit under my TV and not fart around with cabling or moving hardware anymore was a godsend. I run into people all the time still stringing HDMI cables around the house or bitching about how inconvenient unplugging and replugging their hardware is and don't even know there's another option. I also found lots of time sitting around bored on business trips late at night in a hotel room and being able to connect to my PC back home for a little while to blow off steam was kickass.

I'm not trying to convert any customers here and wouldn't; only person here I've sold anything to was tBC and that was because he asked me and I insisted on working at cost or in exchange for a random gun accessory because he's a good friend and we go way back.

EDIT: Also for the record, I acknowledge I can get forceful and even cutting when making a point. Sorry. A lot of my off time is spent with ex-.mil and if we're not busting each others' balls over a disagreement we're not actually having a disagreement. I'll try to be less gruff.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#46 macdude22

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 08:25 AM

Maybe this mass of people that want more doodles instead of less exists but I don't see them. I talk to people. A lot. My wife says I have a social disorder where I don't know not to talk to people. I have the luxury/horror of working at an organization where I am running into people with a lot of free time on their hands that need distracted by random conversation I am happy to provide. I just don't run into people that are clambering for more things like this. Not kids, not students, not adults with families. The overwhelming majority of consumers just plops down in front of turnkey device that is a console, or increasingly a mobile phone. Most people I run into have a cheap laptop or wal-mart special desktop. A somewhat increasing number of those folks may have a MacBook or iPad in lieu of the cheap laptop or walmart special.

All the kids are clambering to manage separate accounts for
Steam
Origin
Uplay
Battle.net

instead of just a Live or PSN account


PC gaming enthusiasts are like car enthusiasts. It's a small, energetic group. You can make any number of legitimate, concrete arguments about why it's "better" to do this that and the other. But at the end of the day it's a niche, and as much as of folks in those communities would imagine it's broader, it's not. They REALLY encourage in depth learning about their respective topics, but the majority may nod their head in agreement but don't care.

I'm glad folks are doing things folks like to do. I'm glad people are making money at it. The most fascinating thing to me from a socioeconomic perspective is the number of people that come to an Apple centric forum to preach the gospel of windows gaming.
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#47 Frost

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 11:08 AM

I just came here when I saw tBC and Frigidman because I knew them from way back in Marathon days and hadn't talked to them since, and gaming on the Mac (and my gaming on the Mac) was actually pretty serious and we had loads of killer AAA titles in 2005 that I was gobbling up and playing.

I stayed for the small, but cool community. But as the level of availability of Mac games dropped off I slowly went console over the years, and then went Windows in 2013.

Hell, that's another reason I like the possibilities of streaming, because I can actually play a load of killer AAA titles that I enjoy but aren't in a porting house's budget on my Mac again (hence the whole throwing a controller in my bag with my MacBook Pro). I can also play them maxed out while Apple goes off on their Tim Cook era tangents where we spend years without a real GPU option. I love what Feral's doing now, but when stuff happens like I bought the C&C Deluxe Edition on the Mac App Store and then Aspyr lets it languish in non-working, crashing condition on a significant number of computers for literal years... I feel unloved as a Mac gamer.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#48 Matt Diamond

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 12:57 PM

Quote

Am I not allowed to have an experience based opinion and share it?
Of course you are. No one here is telling you that YOU should like streaming, or that your bad experience with it was your fault. It doesn't work for everyone, and even when it works it isn't always to that person's taste.

By that same token though, please don't be dismissive of people who ARE interested in streaming. I'm referring to phrases that a couple people have used, like "noone wants that", "I don't know anyone who wants that", "lol you don't really do that do you?" or telling them to buy a new couch instead.

Quote

By the way, idiot here did his homework on your assertions regarding PC and Console revenue. In terms of money the order goes mobile (by far), console and PC gaming is heading up the rear by a substantial margin. Since I reside in an alternate universe I'll let you research that for yourself if you want facts instead of fiction.

I think you are arguing against a position that no one was taking. Here's what Frost wrote (emphasis mine).

Quote

Now I have you on the one hand here saying nobody's using it and nobody cares, and in similar threads everybody's playing on consoles and PCs are on the way out. But on the other hand hard data shows PC gaming is booming, console hardware is flat or floundering for the past 18 months, streaming is becoming more common, and I have my balance sheet for this year backing that up. Plus moves by hardware and software giants to compete at addressing a market you're telling me is so small it basically doesn't exist.

I'm sure it doesn't make sense to you, you don't like it, and it's not something you care to use. I get that. And you're right, you are the majority of the market. So far.  The [streaming] market is a minority, but it is also large enough to be addressed profitably and it does most certainly exist far outside of being some extreme edge case that you're trying to paint it as for I don't know what reason.

Frost is mostly talking about growth, and potential for growth. You are talking about marketshare. Frost didn't dispute your numbers, and agreed that the majority of the market doesn't stream. So you don't need to fight that battle. He just disagreed with the statement that no one wants streaming, and gave counter-examples.


In conclusion, I think we can all agree on the following:
1. No one in this thread is an idiot.
2. We do not live in alternate universes from each other.
3. One of Battle Cat's silly digressions would be great right about now.
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#49 Frost

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:09 PM

As far as Microsoft not getting on the streaming train...


Microsoft now officially getting on the streaming train
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.

#50 Cougar

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 09:14 PM

Back on subject...So the latest news is that Apple changed the rules to explicitly disallow any type of a "store" in a streaming app. Valve has since released a TestFlight beta to testers that removes the store. I still don't get Apple's reasoning given that the Steam Mobile app exists, but maybe Apple will suddenly demand that Valve disable the store there too the next time it gets updated. :rolleyes:

#51 Frost

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 11:42 AM

Apple with the usual retardation and unevenly-applied standards for apps, I see.

If buying Steam games in the Steam app has been fine for years, WTF is the difference between that and buying Steam games in the SteamLink app? :cool:

Regardless, sounds like the best way is to just go to a two app solution like Sony did with the PS App and PS Messages. Leave the store on the Steam app where it is allowed even though app stores inside an app aren't allowed, and leave it out of the SteamLink app where app stores inside an app aren't allowed.
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Eric5h5:
When there's a multiplayer version, I'm going to be on Frost's team. Well, except he doesn't seem to actually need a team...I mean, what's the point? "Hey look, it's Frost and His Merry Gang of Useless Hangers-On!" Or something.