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Apple CPUs to Replace Intel in Macs?


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#81 Janichsan

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 02:18 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 16 April 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

Will it be messy? Not necessarily if the new ARM systems use the iOS App Store. Microsoft Office already awaits them there, keyboard support and all doesn't it?
Not really: there are only very limited versions of the Office applications, which only work as pure document viewer above a certain screen size (>10.1", so a potential ARM Macbook would be affected) without an Office 365 subscription – which in turn is not purchaseable through the App Store.

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#82 Spike

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 07:59 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 16 April 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

What I am doing is separating out the consumer and professional user markets here and their respective needs. Productivity software for the typical office, business user, home user and most college kids is not demanding. On top of that, in larger businesses many users are accessing server applications as clients. It seems reasonable to me that all these users would be fine without high performance CPUs in their notebooks or even office desktops.

These as you say consumers that have little need would not need or buy a Mac. They just get a cheap windows computer or chromebook, which an ARM MacBook would not compete with. People who want and buy Macs want to run Intel Mac software and a large percentage want bootcamp.

#83 macdude22

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 10:14 AM

View PostSpike, on 17 April 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

a large percentage want bootcamp.

I doubt that is true. True of certain demographics of Macintosh users, sure. As a whole, not really.
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#84 Matt Diamond

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 12:49 PM

You are right that some of my objections go away if Apple keeps the Intel option on the high end. I still think it's a stretch but I don't need to repeat my arguments.

Here's a thought. Perhaps Apple will frame it not as a change to the Mac lineup, but an expansion of the iOS lineup. They'd introduce a new iPad Pro which is basically a touchscreen MacBook running ARM OS X. It would run both iOS apps and a subset of Mac OS X apps (those built with ARM support.) If the demand is good then the market for those apps would increase. The market would drive the adoption. If/when most software is ARM-first or ARM-only, then Apple could get off of Intel, pissing off a relatively small number of users.

(Incidentally I would call such an iPad-MacBook hybrid "iPad X", for obvious reasons.)

I still don't view a complete transition to ARM as likely, mind you. But in 5-10 years who knows.
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#85 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:59 AM

View PostJanichsan, on 17 April 2018 - 02:18 AM, said:


Not really: there are only very limited versions of the Office applications, which only work as pure document viewer above a certain screen size (>10.1", so a potential ARM Macbook would be affected) without an Office 365 subscription Ė which in turn is not purchaseable through the App Store.

I subcribed to Office on the web and used it on iOS. I had no issues with Excel, etc. You donít think Microsoft would continue to support Apple hardware as needed over time? They are now. I donít think that would be an issue myself.
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#86 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 07:21 AM

View PostSpike, on 17 April 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:



These as you say consumers that have little need would not need or buy a Mac. They just get a cheap windows computer or chromebook, which an ARM MacBook would not compete with. People who want and buy Macs want to run Intel Mac software and a large percentage want bootcamp.

I think you may misunderstand me. I am talking about Apple users who are consumers that already prefer Apple products for a variety of reasons including the ecosystem benefits, ease of use, perceptions regarding security vs competitors, quality and design of the hardware, quality of support, innovation in the product lines, software user interfaces, services, etc.

A cheap windows notebook or chromebook does not offer the quality hardware and software user experience that Apple does with itís products. The consumer market for notebooks does not need a lot of horsepower for what the vast majority of users do with them.

I would naturally agree there are exceptions to the rule which was why I mentioned that along with the persistence of Mac Pro and iMac Pro perhaps MacBook Pro persists indefinitely as well. For everyone else, itís overkill.
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#87 Janichsan

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 09:08 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 18 April 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

I subcribed to Office on the web and used it on iOS. I had no issues with Excel, etc. You don't think Microsoft would continue to support Apple hardware as needed over time? They are now. I don't think that would be an issue myself.
MS Office for iOS (or any other tablets – including those running Windows 10 Mobile) is not supposed to be a fully featured alternative to the desktop version. It's a supplement, a nice bonus, similar to the web-based version of Office. That's Microsoft's policy and I don't see them change that for Apple. So no, if Apple releases an ARM Macbook with a version of iOS, I don't think MS would support that with a full version of MS Office.

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#88 Spike

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 09:09 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 18 April 2018 - 07:21 AM, said:

I think you may misunderstand me. I am talking about Apple users who are consumers that already prefer Apple products for a variety of reasons including the ecosystem benefits, ease of use, perceptions regarding security vs competitors, quality and design of the hardware, quality of support, innovation in the product lines, software user interfaces, services, etc.

No, I disagree. People who want ecosystem, ease, perception of security, etc, will want an Intel Mac. Once people see that an ARM Mac offers nothing except slightly lower cost and only offers incompatibilities, confusion, and headaches will show that the vast majority then see Intel is the way to go as already seen by Microsofts ARM computers being fail. Apple ARM would not have slightly more battery life, they would instead build with a slightly smaller battery.

#89 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 01:03 PM

View PostSpike, on 18 April 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

No, I disagree. People who want ecosystem, ease, perception of security, etc, will want an Intel Mac. Once people see that an ARM Mac offers nothing except slightly lower cost and only offers incompatibilities, confusion, and headaches will show that the vast majority then see Intel is the way to go as already seen by Microsofts ARM computers being fail. Apple ARM would not have slightly more battery life, they would instead build with a slightly smaller battery.

I would counter by saying that I do not believe Apple would release an ARM mac if it would lead to confusion and headaches for its target market. They don't need to move to ARM, and as such, they can take as much time and care as they want to nail the execution.

When Apple moved to x86 from PowerPC it was out of necessity - the PowerPC platform wasn't really getting the updates that Apple needed it to be getting, and it wasn't compatible with Apple's largest selling computer category (laptops). Apple had to move to x86 in order to continue advancing their notebook line of computers  (The Powerbooks and iBooks were stuck on the very old G4 architecture). This forced move came with all of the headaches and incompatibilities that most users here are familiar with, and forced Apple to release software like Rosetta that allowed PowerPC apps to run on x86 architecture. I firmly believe that this will not be the case when Apple moves to ARM for some of their computers.

I would be willing to bet that the ARM Mac will actually be running iOS. This will give it the huge advantage of being able to use iOS's massive software library, and it will also give it the advantage of not being confused with 'real' Macs. Apple is clearly trying to position the iPad Pro as a laptop competitor and given a few more years of development and a few more years of iOS updates I would guess that iOS will finally be in a place where its target market won't just be able to use it as a computer but will prefer using it as a computer. (Keep in mind that I'm referring to the 'average joe' user here, not the power user that many on this forum are). The may even bring back the 'iBook' name to symbolize the union between the iPad and the Macbook.

Look at how far mobile operating systems have come in just 10 or so years. I tried using an iPad 1 as a laptop replacement and the experience was pretty bad. Almost zero good applications for the iPad. Many websites required Flash. iOS had barely any features. Just an overall bad experience. The current iPad and iOS are so much better now. Give it another 3-5 years and it'll be even better for the average joe who doesn't care about all of the power user features of Windows and macOS.
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#90 macdude22

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 03:27 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 18 April 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

iOS will finally be in a place where its target market won't just be able to use it as a computer but will prefer using it as a computer.

Guess what. This is your average consumer. Apple's bread and butter. The ARM Mac/iOSputer will come in the next 5 years because it will be a better, more convenient, device for the majority of Apple's customers. The organization I work for has over 10,000 iOS devices and under 2000 Macs. We use iOS devices for everything. Communication. Patient Access. General day to day office work. Sure we have researchers that still need powerful desktop workstations. The majority do not.

We power users from the 90s are not Apple's bread and butter anymore. They don't need to make us 9600s and style writers. Even me, the 90s power user, just uses his iPad 80% of my personal time.
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#91 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 04:41 AM

In reference to MS Office 365 on mobile, the idea of these apps being pared down to the essentials for basic documents viewing, creation and data entry is something I am aware of. The reason they are this way now is the reason it wonít be a problem on ARM MacBooks either. They are tailored to a specific category of end users and their day to day needs. In business, complex applications are created for office users as a rule that utilize them for data entry, analysis, reporting, etc. These people do not generally know how or need to know how to create highly complex documents, macro driven canned reports and charts which in some cases are then further automated to be sent somewhere or may be interfacing to a corporate database system, etc. as just a very basic and broad example. Document templates are popular for a reason. Many users donít want to know how to create complex documents. Why should they? Itís a classic case of reinventing the wheel. Businesses arenít big on wasting money like this when human resource hours are their greatest expense. In other words, there is plenty of specialization here with the majority of users interfacing with solutions created by a much smaller group of technical professionals who provide them with what they need. Again, not always but a very large amount of the time. The pros need the fully featured Excel, etc. The road warriors are already using it with iPads for various applications right now. Last but not least, if market needs change somewhat, software vendors will adapt to meet them.
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#92 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 05:49 AM

View PostSpike, on 18 April 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:


No, I disagree. People who want ecosystem, ease, perception of security, etc, will want an Intel Mac. Once people see that an ARM Mac offers nothing except slightly lower cost and only offers incompatibilities, confusion, and headaches will show that the vast majority then see Intel is the way to go as already seen by Microsofts ARM computers being fail. Apple ARM would not have slightly more battery life, they would instead build with a slightly smaller battery.

I am talking about people who do not care about what is inside the hardware they use which I think I need to point out again, is most of them. They are not like you and I who take interest in and follow this stuff. They donít know a CPU from a GPU, etc. These people just care about whatever it is that they want to do with the thing and the quality of their experience in doing it. They want to climb in, turn the key and drive. They know next to nothing about how the vehicle is built, works, etc. This is the consumer market. This is the vast majority of tech users today. These are the people Apple is focused on. That isnít to say to exclusion of all else.

I was corrected earlier in this discussion by Janichsan I think was about the professional marketís importance to Apple which I was dismissing but I was wrong about that. There has to be support for app developers above all else there and it makes sense to continue to provide high end solutions for the professional market of users in the form of the Pro line.

The crux of this discussion in my eyes is the middle tier of users, most of which have already moved to iOS as Apple revenue pie charts very clearly indicate. I know itís hard for people here to get their head around this but a huge number of people do all their computing on a phone now. A substantial number also use a tablet primarily owing to its larger display.

For the sake of this discussion weíll just term the mobile crowd the low end, the consumers, the filthy casuals of the computing world.

The middle tier, sticking to Apple and ignoring all others, would be the non-pro hardware users, not to be confused with whatever it is they happen to do for a living. These folks either used to use (see filthy casuals above) or still do use standard desktop iMacs and standard MacBooks with some using various still sold but neglected models like the Mac Mini or MacBook Air.

Last but not least, there are the mighty power users at the high end served by Mac Pro, iMac Pro and weíll just toss in MacBook Pro which while not in the same league as those desktops is the Apple notebook high end. Itís where as just one example, an Excel user can make make use of the full feature set needed to create elaborate turn key office solutions for people who do not need that functionality or know how to use it.

This whole thing is about the middle group above. Without nitpicking various use cases it it easy to see how the needs of this group can be met in the relatively near term with ARM based notebooks and potentially even iMacs if Apple sees enough demand to justify making them. After all, an iMac is essentially a notebook on a stand with a bigger screen. So if enough people still want them, why not? I could see that for letís say office data entry, corporate database access, etc. I donít see many if any people wanting them for home use but then that is already true.

As for the battery brought up above, I would be very surprised if Apple didnít capitalize on this golden opportunity to offer notebooks with improved battery life between charges as a selling point.

The kinds of apps the middle tier need to run are not dependent on Intel CPU power and Apple would benefit greatly by not being dependent on Intel. They would gain control over refresh cycles that has at times been problematic with Intel. They would also further unify the ecosystem for this significant group of users on the software side of things. At the end of this rainbow they are better off than they are today on a number of fronts and most importantly their customers in this market segment are as well. Apple and their customers have a lot to gain here and that is why I think this is the plan.

Speaking for myself, I do everything now on an iPad Pro and I really like it. I do a lot with my new iPhone as well. Itís a beautiful thing how I can pick up where I left off on either device anytime, wherever I happen to be. Sometimes I do miss a traditional keyboard and a bit larger screen but I would not want a larger and heavier iPad than perhaps 11Ē max. Itíll be sweet when iPad morphs into a big iPhone X with Face ID and an edge to edge killer display. The notch is no big deal. I was worried I might hate it but after a couple of days, I donít even notice it now. Itís just a non-issue. I will be very interested in checking out an ARM MacBook personally. What do I know though? Iím just a filthy casual now. The closest I get to work is Excel budgeting, forecasting and paying my bills.

It would be pretty sweet doing my so called work on a little bigger screen, writing my lengthy missives here and some other stuff with an ARM MacBook running all the apps I already own. It would fit right into the ecosystem here let me tell you. I have become consumer and we are legion!
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#93 Spike

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:37 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

I am talking about people who do not care about what is inside the hardware they use which I think I need to point out again, is most of them. They are not like you and I who take interest in and follow this stuff. They don't know a CPU from a GPU, etc.

Exactly my original point, these consumers that have little need opt for cheap windows laptop or chromebook or ipad, not an ARM Mac over an Intel Mac.


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

The crux of this discussion in my eyes is the middle tier of users, most of which have already moved to iOS as Apple revenue pie charts very clearly indicate. I know it's hard for people here to get their head around this but a huge number of people do all their computing on a phone now. A substantial number also use a tablet primarily owing to its larger display.

A lot of the discussion here lately has redirected to saying what everyone here already knows - that iOS is popular and has its larger market. So people here are saying they believe Mac growth will halt and get replaced by iOS? That Macs are then doomed? I have heard this for decades all the time. I think a different thread would be better for these Macs are doomed rants, as this is suppose to be about rumor of Macs replacing Intel. I admit Macs are doing badly right now as Apple hasnt updated the Mac Pro, Mini, and Air in many years along with MacOS development currently so bad with High Sierra. I wish Apple had a better CEO.


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

The kinds of apps the middle tier need to run are not dependent on Intel CPU power and Apple would benefit greatly by not being dependent on Intel. They would gain control over refresh cycles that has at times been problematic with Intel.

Intel isnt just about processing power, it also has many features that Apple's CPU does not. Also, Intel is NOT the problem with Apple refreshing their Macs. All the Windows laptop makes dont have a problem with Intel refresh cycles, the PROBLEM IS Apple. Intel refreshed to Skylake and all the manufacturers went to it except it took Apple a year. Intel refreshed to Kaby Lake and all the manufacturers went to it except Apple who still have most models that have not refreshed.

#94 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 06:28 PM

View PostSpike, on 19 April 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:

A lot of the discussion here lately has redirected to saying what everyone here already knows - that iOS is popular and has its larger market. So people here are saying they believe Mac growth will halt and get replaced by iOS? That Macs are then doomed? I have heard this for decades all the time. I think a different thread would be better for these Macs are doomed rants, as this is suppose to be about rumor of Macs replacing Intel. I admit Macs are doing badly right now as Apple hasnt updated the Mac Pro, Mini, and Air in many years along with MacOS development currently so bad with High Sierra. I wish Apple had a better CEO.

I don't believe the Mac is doomed. I do believe Apple will narrow its focus. Right now the Mac is something aimed at both the casual user and the professional. I think that iOS will continue to evolve as the operating system for the casual user and eventually Apple will introduce 'Macs' (that are running iOS - with an ARM processor and touch screen support) that are meant to service the casual user. The x86 Mac lineup will be pruned to power/professional systems only that aren't really meant for the casual user.


View PostSpike, on 19 April 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:

Intel isnt just about processing power, it also has many features that Apple's CPU does not. Also, Intel is NOT the problem with Apple refreshing their Macs. All the Windows laptop makes dont have a problem with Intel refresh cycles, the PROBLEM IS Apple. Intel refreshed to Skylake and all the manufacturers went to it except it took Apple a year. Intel refreshed to Kaby Lake and all the manufacturers went to it except Apple who still have most models that have not refreshed.

I don't think anyone is blaming Intel for the lack of Mac updates. Intel, AMD, and Nvidia have released a wide range of new CPUs and GPUs that would be fantastic in the Mac. Apple is definitely very slow to update their models.

The move to ARM certainly not because of some 'dead end' with x86.
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#95 Tetsuya

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 07:51 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 18 April 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Guess what. This is your average consumer. Apple's bread and butter. The ARM Mac/iOSputer will come in the next 5 years because it will be a better, more convenient, device for the majority of Apple's customers. The organization I work for has over 10,000 iOS devices and under 2000 Macs. We use iOS devices for everything. Communication. Patient Access. General day to day office work. Sure we have researchers that still need powerful desktop workstations. The majority do not.

We power users from the 90s are not Apple's bread and butter anymore. They don't need to make us 9600s and style writers. Even me, the 90s power user, just uses his iPad 80% of my personal time.

There are, though, other ends of even in the industry you're in where an iPad/iOS/ARM device simply cant work.  My wife works in clinical support for physician offices tied to her hospital system.  Almost without fail, the doctors are using MacBook Pros.  We're talking thousands of doctors, not to mention whoever is in their offices (though PAs and Nurses often get stuck with low-end HP laptops).  A lot of them have to use Windows in a VM to use some of the applications they use (like E Clinical Works or Epic).  

That will, quite simply, not EVER work on an ARM based machine.  If you dont believe me, go and ask MS how that Windows-on-ARM thing is working out, where the fastest ARM chips on the planet produce sub-AMD-FX series performance.  

Now, the Doctors could just use Windows machines, and i imagine that a lot of them would if they had to.  But that's a lot of cheddar for Apple to just leave on the table for absolutely no potential gain.  

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

I am talking about people who do not care about what is inside the hardware they use which I think I need to point out again, is most of them. They are not like you and I who take interest in and follow this stuff. They don't know a CPU from a GPU, etc. These people just care about whatever it is that they want to do with the thing and the quality of their experience in doing it. They want to climb in, turn the key and drive. They know next to nothing about how the vehicle is built, works, etc. This is the consumer market. This is the vast majority of tech users today. These are the people Apple is focused on. That isn't to say to exclusion of all else.

But those people DO care how that piece of hardware performs. If it is slow as a pig, they still wont care whats inside it, they just wont use it.  ARM is just not there, and literally nothing on their roadmap is even giving a hint that they will be any time within a decade or more.  

Quote

I was corrected earlier in this discussion by Janichsan I think was about the professional market's importance to Apple which I was dismissing but I was wrong about that. There has to be support for app developers above all else there and it makes sense to continue to provide high end solutions for the professional market of users in the form of the Pro line.

The crux of this discussion in my eyes is the middle tier of users, most of which have already moved to iOS as Apple revenue pie charts very clearly indicate. I know it's hard for people here to get their head around this but a huge number of people do all their computing on a phone now. A substantial number also use a tablet primarily owing to its larger display.

Actually, ive been saying this for years, but that's because those people aren't doing anything i'd call "computing".  They arent editing videos (and i dont mean pro video editors, i mean, ma-and-pa-and-the-kids videos of family time), they arent making music, they aren't managing a document stack, hell, aren't even writing documents.  

Theyre doing Failbook and Instagram and other non-computing electronic consumption tasks, and sending text messages.  

You ever actually used the iPad Pro to try to edit video?  Holy crap it is a terrifyingly slow, unintuitive, nightmarish mess.  Its a garbage experience, and it's only acceptable because the Android version is even worse.  Want to put together a 20 minute video of the family vacation?  See you in 50 hours.  And then a 30 hour render.  

Quote

For the sake of this discussion we'll just term the mobile crowd the low end, the consumers, the filthy casuals of the computing world.

The middle tier, sticking to Apple and ignoring all others, would be the non-pro hardware users, not to be confused with whatever it is they happen to do for a living. These folks either used to use (see filthy casuals above) or still do use standard desktop iMacs and standard MacBooks with some using various still sold but neglected models like the Mac Mini or MacBook Air.

Last but not least, there are the mighty power users at the high end served by Mac Pro, iMac Pro and we'll just toss in MacBook Pro which while not in the same league as those desktops is the Apple notebook high end. It's where as just one example, an Excel user can make make use of the full feature set needed to create elaborate turn key office solutions for people who do not need that functionality or know how to use it.

This whole thing is about the middle group above. Without nitpicking various use cases it it easy to see how the needs of this group can be met in the relatively near term with ARM based notebooks and potentially even iMacs if Apple sees enough demand to justify making them. After all, an iMac is essentially a notebook on a stand with a bigger screen. So if enough people still want them, why not? I could see that for let's say office data entry, corporate database access, etc. I don't see many if any people wanting them for home use but then that is already true.

... how can the needs of that group be met (especially in the near-term) when the ARM CPUs cant handle those tasks?  That's what you dont seem to be getting.  The synthetic benchmarks are laughable and not worth even looking at, because they cherrypicked a single one that the chip was specifically engineered for.  A low-power Core i5 8650U pulls all of 15W and will absolutely destroy anything in ARM's portfolio by an order of magnitude.  

A lot of the day-to-day not Flailbook tasks that people use their computer for run like dog-poo on an ARM chip, even if the app is native.  It's a major part of the reason that Windows-on-ARM sucks.  Even the native apps are dog turds.  You can also see this on Chromebooks, where ARM-based entries run like molasses compared to even a Celeron based Intel machine.  And that's freaking ChromeOS, which is about as lightweight as its possible to be.  

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As for the battery brought up above, I would be very surprised if Apple didn't capitalize on this golden opportunity to offer notebooks with improved battery life between charges as a selling point.

Id be shocked.  Theyve literally never done this.  Every time theyve had the opportunity to keep the chasis the same size and increase the battery... they've shrunk the chasis and the battery and kept battery life about the same.  

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The kinds of apps the middle tier need to run are not dependent on Intel CPU power and Apple would benefit greatly by not being dependent on Intel.

Uhh.... what  benefit, exactly?  

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They would gain control over refresh cycles that has at times been problematic with Intel.

It has quite literally NEVER been problematic.  Intel refreshes their lineup 4x as often as Apple does.  Apple's refresh problems are entirely due to Apple, not Intel.  

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They would also further unify the ecosystem for this significant group of users on the software side of things. At the end of this rainbow they are better off than they are today on a number of fronts and most importantly their customers in this market segment are as well. Apple and their customers have a lot to gain here and that is why I think this is the plan.

Speaking for myself, I do everything now on an iPad Pro and I really like it.

You ever do anything actually productive on that thing?  Like try to type a 10,000 word Word document (or Google Doc, or whatever)?  When it slows down to a turtle-like crawl because it doesn't have enough RAM to hold the entire document in memory, enjoy that.  Ever tried to edit a family video on it?  If you have, and you didn't try to rip your hair out or twist the iPad into a pretzel, im utterly amazed at your patience.  Seriously edit or retouch a photo (and no, i dont mean in a Pro app, i mean, in a way that a lot of people do with their family photos) - not just apply some Instagram filter?  Good luck.  

Those aren't "Pro" uses.  Those are everyday uses for people doing things like... having a job, or going to High School or College.  Or having a family.  And they all SUCK on an iPad, either because the control scheme sucks or the iPad is just slow as dog doo in doing them.  

That isn't going to change.  Apple doesn't have some magical Super-ARM chip up their sleeves.  

Oh, and do you like doing things like...transfering files to your computer?  Do you like USB ports, and TB ports, and having more than ~128GB of storage?  Good luck with that.  Ports require controllers which require more power.  Except.. on Intel chips they are built into the chip.  Did you record something with your phone and you want to edit it on that nice big iPad Pro?  Good luck getting that file over there in anything resembling a reasonable time frame.  

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I do a lot with my new iPhone as well. It's a beautiful thing how I can pick up where I left off on either device anytime, wherever I happen to be.

This is not exactly a new feature in computing, however much Apple likes to trumpet it as some huge achievement.  Been able to do this for going on 6+ years, through various methods, including Apple's own.  

I think you really need to look into how chips work if you think ARM is remotely a solution for even light desktop work.  They aren't.  At all.  

Again, we're not talking Pro work.  We're talking.. writing a paper for school, editing a family video or photo, doing simple content creation that "consumers" like to do.  ARM isn't there.  It's murderously slow and missing a TON of features that are built in to better CPUs (like USB and TB controllers, better memory controllers, etc).  

The actual benefit to Apple is.... what, exactly?  Pay more for Qualcomm or GF or TSMC to make their custom chips, or continue getting a sweetheart deal from Intel for superior products.  If iOS cross-polination is your thing, most iOS apps can be made to run on OSX with very little work (and Intel chips have the power to emulate ARM much better than ARM does to emulate x86, if that is required), but the reverse is not necessarily true.  

They fragment their user base into 3 or 4 instead of just 2?  I dont see how that is helpful in any way.  They have to have more guys working on more versions of software for no particularly good reason, and at least two of those groups will now be keeping alive software for a miniscule audience, whereas before they were just part of the MacOS team.  

View PostSneaky Snake, on 19 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is blaming Intel for the lack of Mac updates.

Dirty Harry literally just did that.  See above.

#96 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM

Read this please if you want an indication of how serious this is being taken in a place that does matter unlike here and unlike me, the stock market where Intel shares took a hit in response to news from various outlets about Apple moving to ARM.

ďIntel shares dropped as much as 9.2 percent, the biggest intraday drop in more than two years, on the newsĒ is the big takeaway from this Fortune article dated April 2, 2018:

http://fortune.com/2...ntel-mac-chips/

That is a lot of money. Plenty of people see where this is probably going whether some of you guys do or not. The people that manage money at this level are not idiots. They do their homework.

I specifically mentioned that I didnít want to get bogged down in various outlying use cases. I still donít. Just to clarify since it seems to be a point of confusion for some, a smartphone is a computer. An iPad is a computer. There is no real computing vs casual or whatever some may want to call it. It is all software executing on computers whether it is a social media app, game, spreadsheet or whatever. Also, there are two distinct computer user markets with plenty of crossover between them. These are business and consumer.

With the above definitions clarified I will one more time point out that I have been talking about consumers. I have made comments about business users in the context of this topic but the things I am saying, the views I hold about Apple moving MacBooks and low end iMacs perhaps to ARM are about the consumer market, the people buying notebooks at BestBuy, Amazon or whatever. The same ones sporting iPhones and sometimes using iPads either instead of or along with a MacBook. These people are buying these products to use at home and sometimes school as well. Desktop Macs no longer even rate a footnote with this crowd on the whole.

This tech isnít static. It continues to be improved and substantially so annually by Apple. Are they done? Will there be no A12 Bionic chip that is significantly more powerful than its predecessor and so on? Can someone here tell me what year the ceiling will be hit and Apple will be screwed because they can no longer refresh the iPhone? I didnít think so.

What about macdude22ís comments? This guy is an expert and knows what people are using in a large Apple environment. Did you miss his post? 10,000 iOS devices vs 2000 Macs. I just read above that ARM sucks so badly and software runs like popsnizzle on it unless you are some teen glued to Instagram, WhatsApp and Facebook. I donít think thousands of people where he works are doing that all day because the place wouldnít last a week like that. So, what are those people doing with those 10,000 ARM powered iOS devices, work maybe? That would be my guess. Apparently there is some software that people do real work with on ARM. Who knew?

Did I say the next refresh will be ARM? No. Did I say at any point that an A11 Bionic could replace an Intel chip in a MacBook today? No. So why am I reading about you canít do this and you canít do that? I never said you could. I said we will is what I think. Thatís all. I have not given any specifics about when but macdude22 did, putting it at roughly 5 years. I guess some of you guys could challenge him there. Good luck with that since he probably knows more than anyone else here by a long shot about the viability of ARM for productivity applications in the real world.

Lastly, the thing about being dependent on Intel is something Iíve read multiple times lately. In one case I read about at least one and it might have been two issues where Intelís release schedule was not optimal for Apple. Iím not going looking for it. You can assume I made it up if you like. Iíll still sleep just fine tonight.

One more time... I am talking about Apple users and Apple users only. PCs, Chromebooks, etc. need not apply. Stop with the freaking Chromebooks already and the popsnizzlety HPs, Dells and whatever notebooks with Celeron chips. They are irrelevant. Apple users donít buy that crap.

I donít think anyone here thinks Macs are doomed including me. I think they are just changing is all. I donít think there will be 3 or 4 part fragmented user base either. There will be future versions of both macOS for Pro systems and iOS for everything else. Note: future versions. This means a future iOS will incorporate whatever added features it may need to for MacBooks and possibly low end iMacs.

Tetsuya, my doctor does the same thing, with an iPad. My previous one years ago did too. My doctor is part of a network of offices utilizing eClinicalWorks. I use an eClinicalWorks app myself on iOS to view test results, email my doctor, check appointments and more. They already are on ARM, on iOS for physicians, patients, etc. Naturally I have no idea why your wifeís employer utilizes what they do. Iím sure they have their reasons but not being able to use eClinicalWorks probably isnít one of them. Also, it is important to remember that one single business by itself isnít going to affect product planning. Lastly, the business may opt to make its own changes at some point. So never say never as the old saying goes.
“The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” — Bertrand Russell

#97 Spike

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 12:58 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

With the above definitions clarified I will one more time point out that I have been talking about consumers. I have made comments about business users in the context of this topic but the things I am saying, the views I hold about Apple moving MacBooks and low end iMacs perhaps to ARM are about the consumer market, the people buying notebooks at BestBuy, Amazon or whatever. The same ones sporting iPhones and sometimes using iPads either instead of or along with a MacBook. These people are buying these products to use at home and sometimes school as well. Desktop Macs no longer even rate a footnote with this crowd on the whole.

Our responses about ARM in Macs have been exactly about consumers and not professionals as has been repeatedly said.


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

This tech isn't static. It continues to be improved and substantially so annually by Apple. Are they done? Will there be no A12 Bionic chip that is significantly more powerful than its predecessor and so on? Can someone here tell me what year the ceiling will be hit and Apple will be screwed because they can no longer refresh the iPhone? I didn't think so.
Intel will improve also and have been designed for the computer market.


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

What about macdude22's comments? This guy is an expert and knows what people are using in a large Apple environment. Did you miss his post? 10,000 iOS devices vs 2000 Macs. I just read above that ARM sucks so badly and software runs like popsnizzle on it unless you are some teen glued to Instagram, WhatsApp and Facebook. I don't think thousands of people where he works are doing that all day because the place wouldn't last a week like that. So, what are those people doing with those 10,000 ARM powered iOS devices, work maybe? That would be my guess. Apparently there is some software that people do real work with on ARM. Who knew?
And how many of those are using an ARM based computer again?


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

Lastly, the thing about being dependent on Intel is something I've read multiple times lately. In one case I read about at least one and it might have been two issues where Intel's release schedule was not optimal for Apple. I'm not going looking for it. You can assume I made it up if you like. I'll still sleep just fine tonight.
Well if its on the internet, then it must be true!


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

One more time... I am talking about Apple users and Apple users only. PCs, Chromebooks, etc. need not apply. Stop with the freaking Chromebooks already and the popsnizzlety HPs, Dells and whatever notebooks with Celeron chips. They are irrelevant. Apple users don't buy that crap.
That is what the market is for what you were talking about - "consumers" with very little needs. Once Apple consumers see the rumored ARM based Mac and all its disadvantages, they will goto windows and chromebooks.


View PostDirtyHarry50, on 19 April 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

I don't think anyone here thinks Macs are doomed including me. I think they are just changing is all. I don't think there will be 3 or 4 part fragmented user base either. There will be future versions of both macOS for Pro systems and iOS for everything else. Note: future versions. This means a future iOS will incorporate whatever added features it may need to for MacBooks and possibly low end iMacs.
Macs going only for professional users would so significantly reduce its market that Apple would no longer invest in its development. It would be a repeat of Apple xserve that they abandoned when not enough market.

#98 Matt Diamond

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 05:05 AM

Quote

“Intel shares dropped as much as 9.2 percent, the biggest intraday drop in more than two years, on the news” is the big takeaway from this Fortune article dated April 2, 2018:

Stock trading done in response to a rumor is not really proof of anything.

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Apple would benefit greatly by not being dependent on Intel.

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Uhh.... what  benefit, exactly?  

Well if nothing else, Apple can try to negotiate a better price from them. "Give us a price break or your stock drops again." :)
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#99 Steve Ballmer

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:26 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 20 April 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:

Stock trading done in response to a rumor is not really proof of anything.





Well if nothing else, Apple can try to negotiate a better price from them. "Give us a price break or your stock drops again." :)
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#100 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:51 AM

Spike, you asked me, ďAnd how many of those are using an ARM based computer again?Ē The answer is all of them. Those 10,000 iOS devices ARE computers. Even when I list that as a definition you still blow it off. They are computers being used to do WORK in a business now.

A healthcare management system like eClinicalWorks supports iOS for physicians and patients accessing centralized data already.

And yet, this isnít going to work for consumer notebooks upcoming? As I said, iMacs of any kind donít even apply here anymore but in business where a desktop and greater screen real estate may make sense for say, a receptionist or whatever, a low end ARM powered iMac would be fine. Consider the use case there. We are talking about a glorified dumb terminal in a client server environment. It does not need a lot of power. I think some of you are thinking about computers in business existing in their own little independent worlds doing all the work or something. They arenít more often than not. When the answer is not, we are looking at professional use cases requiring high end power and thatís where the Apple Pro line comes into play.

In essence, the middle ground at work which is in a sense the high ground at home is very likely to be assimilated by iOS devices on ARM and that includes notebooks and quite possibly a low end iMac model or two for the business use cases it would take care of. The movement in this direction has gradually been occurring for a long time now. This isnít some drastic, earth shattering change other than as a matter of perceptions about what constitutes a computer for some users I guess.

There is clear benefit here. There is the more focused product lines as mentioned above. Presently we have a workstation, two tiers of iMacs, two tiers of MacBooks, two tiers of iPads and two tiers of current year iPhones. The evolution of these is probably going to result in a professional tier with Mac Pro, iMac Pro & MacBook Pro serving business users needs for that level of power almost exclusively. Depending on their major, some college students may need a Pro notebook but most of them wonít.

For everyone else, itís iOS on ARM, just pick you favorite flavor(s). Simple, not complicated. Unified, not fragmented. Everybody wins.

Why is the benefit of that evolution hard to understand and accept? It means for most of Appleís customers that a single operating system running their apps no what device or devices they are using, including notebooks which all look and work the same way while users buy their apps one time and can run them on their notebook, iPad, iPhone and possibly use familiar systems at work too in the form of ARM based iMacs in various areas not requiring a lot of power. Most users wind up only needing to be familiar with iOS and most of them already are.

I would agree Matt that stock trading does not represent proof. It represents a perceived likelihood. My point in referencing that was that there are people who monitor tech also thinking it is going this way, so much so that it impacted Intel stock significantly on the news from multiple articles which are leaks that have to be considered with a grain of salt.

I think I sometimes I come off wrong and sound like I think I know it all and can predict the future unerringly. I donít mean to do that. I regularly learn new things from you guys and I do respect everyoneís thoughts, ideas and opinions about things even if we donít agree. I donít think I am wrong about this but I am well aware that I could be and it would not be the first time. I canít predict the future with certainty anymore than anybody else, well except the weatherman or lady. :-)

View PostSteve Ballmer, on 20 April 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

The world only cares about Microsoft!

Oh, thatís right! Thatís right! Iím sorry Steve. Thank you for clearing that up.

By the way, I never did get that Xbox One X from you. Can you ask Major Nelson if I could have a gold one and matching white gloves to caress it with each day?

Thanks!
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