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Apple CPUs to Replace Intel in Macs?


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#101 Janichsan

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 04:45 AM

Part of this discussion is moot anyway, as Tim Cook just two days (again) pointed out that Apple has no interest in unifying Macs and iPads. That surely doesn't rule out ARM based laptops or desktops, but there won't be iOS based gimped "Macs".

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 21 April 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

I would agree Matt that stock trading does not represent proof. It represents a perceived likelihood. My point in referencing that was that there are people who monitor tech also thinking it is going this way, so much so that it impacted Intel stock significantly on the news from multiple articles which are leaks that have to be considered with a grain of salt.
I strongly have to disagree with you here. First of all, the drop in Intel's share value has nothing to do with the actual feasibility of ARM based Macs or whether this imagined ecosystem dominated by tablets and a few computers is a grand vision of the things to come. It's simply a result of the potential impact on Intel's profit. The thought process was not "Oh, Apple wants to switch to ARM CPUs, that's the future!", it was rather "Oh no, Intel might potentially lose one of its most famous customers". And then they thought "Who cares?" as they took into account that Intel is absolutely not dependent on Apple and Intel's shares started to rise again on the same day. By now, that drop is long forgotten and the shares are worth more than before.

When you take a look at the larger picture, the effect of that news on Intel's share value barely registers. Here's the chart for Intel for the last 12 months:
Posted Image
The April 2 drop is one of the tiny dips in the upper right. That's just fluctuation.

By and large, that the tech stock traders' reaction on this rumour was a resounding "meh".

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#102 Spike

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:11 AM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 21 April 2018 - 02:51 AM, said:

Spike, you asked me, "And how many of those are using an ARM based computer again?" The answer is all of them. Those 10,000 iOS devices ARE computers. Even when I list that as a definition you still blow it off. They are computers being used to do WORK in a business now.
etc.....

I obviously meant desktops/laptops with ARM.

Again, I need to repeat in response to all that mumbo jumbo is again I am discussing Macs replacing Intel -- NOT computers being overtaken by iOS. For an iOS overtaking Macs or other words Macs are doomed discussion, I again suggest a different thread.

#103 Matt Diamond

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:52 AM

Quote

Spike, you asked me, “And how many of those are using an ARM based computer again?” The answer is all of them. Those 10,000 iOS devices ARE computers. Even when I list that as a definition you still blow it off. They are computers being used to do WORK in a business now.

I think we get it, they're computers, people work on them. But from that you can't conclude that full desktops and pro laptops will simply go away. Or that Apple could switch those to ARM expect users to stay on board. Even if you look at the trends and think such a move is inevitable, that doesn't mean it will happen in the next 2-3 years.

As evidence, consider the success of the iMac Pro, and the very public plans to reboot the Mac Pro. Apple is acknowledging that there is a market there.
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#104 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 03:06 PM

Iím done for the time being personally with this topic. I could counter each post I just read and clarify in one case further what I meant about something but I donít want to keep doing this.

I respect that you guys have a different take on presently known information and what it means, may mean or does not mean down the road. Thatís fine too. For me this is a good time to ask that we agree to disagree for now. Weíll see what happens. We can always revisit this at a later time if and when something changes one way or another.

Put another way, I am choosing to shut the hell up about this stuff because I genuinely like you guys and really donít want to be irritating and pissing you off by stubbornly insisting well, anything really. Itís not that important to me but I can honestly say peace in the valley is. Iím not implying there isnít peace either but shutting up will help keep it that way. :-)
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#105 Steve Ballmer

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 05:26 PM

" I am choosing to shut the hell up about this stuff "

Thank goodness
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#106 macdude22

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM

Anyone who thinks Apple doesn't have macOS running on ARM right now isn't paying attention.

https://opensource.a...570.1.46/osfmk/

A full fledged A-series Mac, hard to say if it ever sees the light of day but Apple's had an affinity for RISC since the beginning of time. Including being one of the original investors in ARM.

Folks here are letting their long histories with Apple and personal experience impact their view of the market. The average lululemon hunbot at Starbucks on a Mac is not doing highend editing and would be just as happy if their clamshell machine was running on Apple designed processors. Heck they probably wouldn't notice if the iPad versions of these apps were dropped in verbatim.

Until Apple does $thing it's all speculation but in my experience most of the arguments against an ARM based Mac laid out in this thread are not huge concerns for Apple. Would they affect me, absolutely. The majority of Apple customers, ehhhhhh.
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#107 Frost

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:07 PM

View PostDirtyHarry50, on 22 April 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

I'm done for the time being personally with this topic. I could counter each post I just read and clarify in one case further what I meant about something but I don't want to keep doing this.

I respect that you guys have a different take on presently known information and what it means, may mean or does not mean down the road. That's fine too. For me this is a good time to ask that we agree to disagree for now. We'll see what happens. We can always revisit this at a later time if and when something changes one way or another.

Put another way, I am choosing to shut the hell up about this stuff because I genuinely like you guys and really don't want to be irritating and pissing you off by stubbornly insisting well, anything really. It's not that important to me but I can honestly say peace in the valley is. I'm not implying there isn't peace either but shutting up will help keep it that way. :-)

WTF man, you don't leave anything to moderate. At least curse a little, insult someone's mother, and threaten to shove a grenade into an orifice of your choosing.

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks Apple doesn't have macOS running on ARM right now isn't paying attention.

https://opensource.a...570.1.46/osfmk/

A full fledged A-series Mac, hard to say if it ever sees the light of day but Apple's had an affinity for RISC since the beginning of time. Including being one of the original investors in ARM
...

After reading the history of the OSX on Intel project years back, if Apple hasn't had development prototypes running Mac OS on ARM for at least the last three to four years, I would be extremely surprised. Even if they never use it.
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#108 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:46 PM

View PostFrost, on 22 April 2018 - 09:07 PM, said:


WTF man, you don't leave anything to moderate. At least curse a little, insult someone's mother, and threaten to shove a grenade into an orifice of your choosing.

Those suggestions tempted me to write a long diatribe laced with threats of violence, peppered with cursing of the worst sort, all manner of personal attacks and more. Done right this would result in a permanent ban. Canít have that now. Besides, somebody has to provide a dummy for target practice.

Oh, and all that stuff about liking you guys? I made that up.
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#109 Spike

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 10:03 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks Apple doesn't have macOS running on ARM right now isn't paying attention.
No. Have been paying attention.

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

A full fledged A-series Mac, hard to say if it ever sees the light of day but Apple's had an affinity for RISC since the beginning of time. Including being one of the original investors in ARM.
Apple engineers believed the future was RISC in switching to PowerPC. After proven wrong, they then switched to CISC.

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Folks here are letting their long histories with Apple and personal experience impact their view of the market.
No. History with Apple not impacting view. View based on variety of information and facts.

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

The average lululemon hunbot at Starbucks on a Mac is not doing highend editing and would be just as happy if their clamshell machine was running on Apple designed processors. Heck they probably wouldn't notice if the iPad versions of these apps were dropped in verbatim.
And my crystal ball says average user would indeed care what CPU is in Mac after seeing the many disadvantages.

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Until Apple does $thing it's all speculation but in my experience most of the arguments against an ARM based Mac laid out in this thread are not huge concerns for Apple.
Sorry.

#110 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 10:21 PM

Must.... resist.... tempt.... arghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

I think I hear something, music to my ears. Ground control to Major Nelson....

Iíll just be on my merry way now. Yíall have fun! I know Iím going to.
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#111 Spike

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 01:48 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 22 April 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks Apple doesn't have macOS running on ARM right now isn't paying attention.

https://opensource.a...570.1.46/osfmk/

I cant .... resist.... as well.....

The link macdude22 posted is for Apple's iOS (and MacOS etc...) kernel as part of Darwin. Macdude22 not realize that this iOS kernel has been on ARM since 2007?

#112 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 01:58 AM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 21 April 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

As evidence, consider the success of the iMac Pro, and the very public plans to reboot the Mac Pro. Apple is acknowledging that there is a market there.

I'm not sure how much of the pro market will be left for Apple by the time the Mac Po is reborn... From what I've read in various forums, companies switch to Windows more and more because of the way Apple has abandoned this market (no real line up refresh since 2010! The Mac Pro 2012 was just a minor speed bump, and the Mac Pro 2013 was an industrial accident and by most accounts a commercial failure).

#113 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:50 AM

Feel like there is a lot of bad information in here about ARM's performance that is mostly based off of the failed Windows RT or horribly optimized apps. Also comparing the iPad's ARM chip to something like the 15W 8650U is just ludicrous. The iPad has a system TDP of 5 watts versus the single chip TDP of 15W for the 8650U. The iPad's CPU is probably closer to 2-3 watts. Comparing it to something from Intel that uses 5-8x as much power and generates 5x the heat just is not fair at all. I also don't find the WindowsRT failure argument that convincing. Windows has had literally decades of optimization for x86 whereas their ARM port of Windows was rushed out the door and then canceled before there was any real time for improvement. Granted, I think WindowsRT was an absolutely terrible idea.

Here are some actual benchmarks of ARM vs x86 in a server environment.

TLDR: Single core performance Intel wins by a good margin. Multicore performance has ARM near the top (due it's architecture being able to scale to way more cores easily). ARM also has the lowest power consumption by a good margin.

Here is the conclusion from that linked article:

Quote

The engineering sample of Falkor we got certainly impressed me a lot. This is a huge step up from any previous attempt at ARM based servers. Certainly core for core, the Intel Skylake is far superior, but when you look at the system level the performance becomes very attractive.

The production version of the Centriq SoC will feature up to 48 Falkor cores, running at a frequency of up to 2.6GHz, for a potential additional 8% better performance.

Obviously the Skylake server we tested is not the flagship Platinum unit that has 28 cores, but those 28 cores come both with a big price and over 200W TDP, whereas we are interested in improving our bang for buck metric, and performance per watt.

Currently my main concern is weak Go language performance, but that is bound to improve quickly once ARM based servers start gaining some market share.

Both C and LuaJIT performance is very competitive, and in many cases outperforms the Skylake contender. In almost every benchmark Falkor shows itself as a worthy upgrade from Broadwell.

The largest win by far for Falkor is the low power consumption. Although it has a TDP of 120W, during my tests it never went above 89W (for the go benchmark). In comparison Skylake and Broadwell both went over 160W, while the TDP of the two CPUs is 170W.

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#114 macdude22

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:52 AM

View PostSpike, on 23 April 2018 - 01:48 AM, said:

I cant .... resist.... as well.....

The link macdude22 posted is for Apple's iOS (and MacOS etc...) kernel as part of Darwin. Macdude22 not realize that this iOS kernel has been on ARM since 2007?

Sure but ARM64 was not added with OS X as a default SDK target until 10.12.

I said they are building macOS for ARM platforms, I never said it would see the light of day.

FWIW they have been testing (what we would consider) macOS on ARM for far longer than anyone really thinks.

https://repository.t...ection=research

We can speculate about the likelihood of an actual released Macintosh with an Apple designed processor at it's heart til the cows come home, but there's nothing to speculate about Apple building (what we would consider) macOS on ARM internally.

I expect most here don't know what I do for a living so carry on. Clearly I know nothing. :teehee:
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#115 the Battle Cat

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:10 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 23 April 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

I expect most here don't know what I do for a living so carry on.

You people should know that Macdude pushes little buttons for a living or some such silly occupation.  But if you heard him griping on Discord every Saturday night about it you would think he was some sort of overloaded pack mule, whipping boy, and company bed pan.

View Postmacdude22, on 23 April 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Clearly I know nothing. :teehee:

I just wanted to step in here to verify Macdude's claim.  Just ask his wife.
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#116 Spike

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:22 AM

View Postmacdude22, on 23 April 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Sure but ARM64 was not added with OS X as a default SDK target until 10.12.

I said they are building macOS for ARM platforms, I never said it would see the light of day.

FWIW they have been testing (what we would consider) macOS on ARM for far longer than anyone really thinks.

https://repository.t...ection=research

We can speculate about the likelihood of an actual released Macintosh with an Apple designed processor at it's heart til the cows come home, but there's nothing to speculate about Apple building (what we would consider) macOS on ARM internally.

I expect most here don't know what I do for a living so carry on. Clearly I know nothing. :teehee:

What?

Again, that is for DARWIN - THE KERNEL. As I have stated, Darwin was ported to ARM for iOS. Your new link is also again for DARWIN, which is only the kernel!

#117 macdude22

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 10:58 AM

Full multi-user port for iOS, cool. Glad ur here to set me straight. I'm just a dumb hyperchiken from a backwoods asteroid.

I don't know why the idea of Apple having internal builds of macOS for Apple designed processes is such a personal affront to everyone here. :huh:
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#118 the Battle Cat

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 11:00 AM

MacDude, this is your first warning.  If you continue to challenge preconceived nerd notions with professional knowledge of inside Apple information and facts from your stupid high powered industry position I will be forced to remove you from your sacred duties as IMG Moderator.  You have everybody in a tizzy with your dum faks.  


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#119 macdude22

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 11:33 AM

too late I removed myself.
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#120 macdude22

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 11:39 AM

View Postthe Battle Cat, on 24 April 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

MacDude, this is your first warning.  If you continue to challenge preconceived nerd notions with professional knowledge of inside Apple information and facts from your stupid high powered industry position I will be forced to remove you from your sacred duties as IMG Moderator.  You have everybody in a tizzy with your dum faks.  


("Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Mark Twain)

The only fact is the XNU kernel for source 10.12. and 10.13 from Apple has ARM64 targets for the macosinternal SDK. Everything else I've said is speculation. As I've said, I'm just a dumb hyperchikin. Don't go lumping me in with all the true experts here.
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