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Apple Plans to Announce Move to Its Own Chips at WWDC

T2 ARM CPU BORG WALLED GARDEN LOUIS ROSSMANN ANTI-RIGHT-TO-REPAIR

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#61 Matt Diamond

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 02:04 PM

Quote

And i think you vastly underestimate the number of people who work in corporate scenarios who use a mac but have to virtualize Windows for that ONE application that just doesnt exist on Mac that they MUST use.

Back in the 90's my employers kept just one Mac in the office, for desktop publishing (and Spaceward Ho, though only a few of us knew about that.) Everything else was PCs running Windows.

So maybe offices now should keep just one PC around, to run corporate tax software and MS Project.

As a bonus, not having Windows PCs around would discourage employees from playing games on company equipment. :-)
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#62 Matt Diamond

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 02:22 PM

I joke, but I do understand the issue. I myself still boot up Windows (virtualized) occasionally.

Some companies will have no choice but to drop Macs because of this, but others will use this as an excuse to finally replace Windows completely, or just have it running on one laptop that they keep in the closet.

And what if Rosetta 2 still runs virtualized Windows, just slowly? That would be good enough for light use. UPDATE: never mind, apparently it's not that easy. If I'd stopped to think about how virtualization works I might have realized that it was wrong before opening my mouth.
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#63 Matt Diamond

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 02:56 PM

VMWare has announced a tech preview of Fusion running on Big Sur: https://appleinsider...le-tech-preview

And here is an interesting twitter thread of people telling VMWare what they want to virtualize on ARM. Lots of worried people saying that they won't be able to keep doing their work on ARM Macs.
https://twitter.com/...483550985318400
There could be a healthy market for Intel Macs for some time to come..
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#64 nick68k

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 03:14 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 24 June 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

VMWare has announced a tech preview of Fusion running on Big Sur: https://appleinsider...le-tech-preview


Very interesting post, thanks.

I'm also interested to know about the plausibility of running a Mojave VM on ARM silicon.
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#65 Homy

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 08:31 PM

Don't underestimate ARM because it's a big family of CPUs and not only about mobile chips in iPhone.
Good news for future Macs: The fastest supercomputer uses Arm chips

#66 Matt Diamond

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 08:56 PM

Apparently Unity support was mentioned in the "other" WWDC keynote, but here's Unity's blog:
Unity announces Apple silicon support:

Quote

Unity will support Universal App builds, which enables apps to run on both existing 64-bit Intel-based Macs and future Macs running Apple silicon.
[..]Unity will support both Mono and IL2CPP scripting back ends but will not support OpenGL graphics API, so your game must run using Metal.
Beta in a few weeks.
Note the blog says they've been working on porting their player to Apple silicon, not the editor. But there's a photo of the editor running on Apple silicon- I suppose it's running on Rosetta. (I expect the editor will be ported to ARM eventually.)
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#67 Tetsuya

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Posted 24 June 2020 - 09:05 PM

View PostHomy, on 24 June 2020 - 08:31 PM, said:

Don't underestimate ARM because it's a big family of CPUs and not only about mobile chips in iPhone.
Good news for future Macs: The fastest supercomputer uses Arm chips

Because of MASSIVE parallelization.  

Not everything can benefit from that.  A lot of things need piles and piles of IPC and blistering clock speeds.  (Gaming being one notable thing, but im not ragging on Apple for lack of gaming support due to this switch - their gaming support is already trash, so thats not new).  

And im well aware that ARM is just an instruction set - like x86-64 or x86.   But so far, no one has put any effort into truly fast, powerful ARM chips, leaving "fast and powerful" to IBMs POWER.  But Apple isn't gonna be using POWER again (POWER being what remains/became of PowerPC) - particularly since they are optimized for "Big Iron" applications and not remotely power efficient.  

Like i said, Apple may have some octa-core, 4ghz, high-IPC ARM chip waiting in the wings.  But you think theyd have touted that.  

As for virtualization:

https://developer.ap...ion_environment


read "What Cant be Translated" - Virtual Machine (that works with X86/64 code) software is right out.  VM software that is merely running ARM-friendly software (like Linux) works just fine, though.  

Now, one possibility is Windows 10 on ARM (which exists, but isnt purchaseable by end users, only pre-installed by OEMs) which could easily run in an ARM-only Parallels/Fusion, but thats got its own limitations beyond not being available to consumers -

A lot of the "i virtualize WIndows because of this ONE APP I MUST USE" applications.... aren't compatible with Win 10 on ARM.  The EMR software is so not-compatible they have to keep IE installed on machines because newer browsers dont work right with some parts of the Application and keep the machines not-updated because Microsoft frequently breaks the software with updates that take EPIC and E-Clinical Works 6+ months, sometimes, to fix.  It is DEFINITELY not compatible at all with WIn 10 on ARM.  So that wouldnt be a solution for the legions of medical professionals who are (now) legally required to use EMR software - and there are only about 4 major vendors of that and none of them support anything but Windows and one of them is so behind that it barely even runs on Win 10.  Theyll have to ditch their Apple hardware for X86 based hardware.  

Same with the two apps my wife would have to use if she wanted to use a Mac - theyre both semi-customized clients that meet HIPPA privacy and (more importantly) security standards that are the only way she can access her work files and emails.  For the same reason, she wouldn't be allowed to own an iPhone and/or her work would have to issue her an Android phone because the clients do not exist on iOS.  (Which is fine, because she doesn't use an iPhone).  She doesn't have to worry about it because they recently issued her a fairly high end Dell laptop to work from home (she used to just run a VM on her Mac when she only occasionally worked from home, as opposed to every day due to 'Rona) but that would have required her to either have a Windows PC at home she could use or required her to go into the office (as the hospital system didn't want to spend money on laptops for everyone prior to the pandemic) even on days she could ostensibly work from home.  

Again, i dont think this is a giant percentage of their sales.. but neither is it an insignificant one.  There are a LOT of corporate business types that i see at the airports when i travel for work that are plugging away on a svelte MacBook/Pro.... and quite a lot of the time, i can see that its in a Windows app.  Those guys are just gonna be boned and have to switch vendors.. because a lot of the apps that corporations use have no Mac equivalent to even switch to (especially semi-custom software like my wife has to use for her work emails).  

Deal-breaker/going too kill Apple?  Nah.  

But.... 15-20% of the current user base, i can see leaving.  Either because they are people like me (who these days only drive a Mac because of habit/nostalgia) who are gonna get left behind or because they are professionals who HAVE to have compatability with a Windows-friendly environment.  

Now, i will say, like one of the previous posters said, if they can deliver a truly CHEAP ARM Mac... maybe.  Like, a Mini that i can use for Daily-driving and keeping my Apple-OS devices all synced to (iPad, et al) that is ~400-500$... sure.  Maybe ill stick it out.  As much as i prefer NOT to put ANYTHING but games on my gaming rig (because i frequently nuke and pave it), i can grin and bear it and put that stuff on there when i just NEED Windows.  

But im certainly not going to pay more than that.  Anything much past that dollar value and i can build a MUCH more powerful, upgradeable, and still small and cool looking PC and run Linux and/or Chromium on it.  But i cant justify paying the Apple premium for a machine that is LESS capable than the one it would be replacing.

#68 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:57 AM

The first rumors spoke of 12 core arm CPUs being the first to come out of Apple, and I certainly expect the first out the door Macs to soundly kick the iPad Pros behind, to show that they spoke the truth when saying that they would make a big power leap with this shift.

16+GB RAM, actively cooled, 128GB SSDs (hehehe), 12+ core chips, a snip of Steves soul, in each machine, is my expectation.

My SO is in for a new laptop, and I've told her to wait, for if anything, I expect battery time to be excellent on the new chips and her needs are small. In the mean time she will likely get an iPad with a magic keyboard, and see if it actually enough for her. She loves the thought of correcting student assignments with a pen on the iPad, but I am still not convinced an iPad is a replacement for a computer for anyone but grandmas.
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#69 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:21 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 24 June 2020 - 09:05 PM, said:

Like i said, Apple may have some octa-core, 4ghz, high-IPC ARM chip waiting in the wings.  But you think theyd have touted that.

They are definitely saving that for when they actually reveal the first ARM Mac.

And I think you are ignoring the massive other side of the coin when it comes to compatibility. They are shedding x86 and as such Windows support but they are gaining native iOS/iPad support. Developers can now optimize for 1 architecture and release on 3 platforms simultaneously. Previously the Mac was in in this strange "in-between" spot of compatibility where it required a moderate amount of work to port both Windows and iOS apps to it. Now devs can look at "Apple" as one giant platform and outside of some UI tweaks every piece of code they write will work on every iPhone, iPad, and Mac going forward which is a MASSIVE market.

Supporting that one app that needs Windows used to be a huge deal but today almost everything is becoming a web app that can be run via the browser. I work for IT in the agricultural industry and the last few years I have seen almost all of our popsnizzlety Windows only apps that used some combination of outdated MS tech (Silverlight, old versions of IE, Windows XP, etc.) all be transitioned to HTML5 web apps that work on any platform. I used to have to be in bootcamp/parallels constantly and now I don't boot into Windows for any reason other then some gaming on my laptop while traveling.

Also, Mac moving to ARM actually allows Macs to be different from PC's. Currently there is literally zero reasons to buy a Mac other then "I like macOS", or "I'm of a software developer that needs Xcode". Every single Mac has a dozen comparable alternatives with identical or better hardware on the PC side. Regular (non-Xcode) software developers who have long needed Macs due to Unix can now choose Windows 10 based machines now that Windows Subsystem for Linux exists. Google now lets their software engineers choose Windows10 laptops when previously it was Linux or MacOS only. With ARM Macs we can see Apple design custom silicon that is specifically optimized for their pro apps. There is a very real chance that they release a pro Mac in 2 years that is heavily optimized for Final Cut and Logic Pro that is capable of performance (through advanced hardware acceleration) that just isn't possible with other video/audio editing apps on PC.

We will have a much more detailed view of how things are going to work this fall once they actually release a Mac that we can benchmark.
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#70 macdude22

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:27 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 24 June 2020 - 09:05 PM, said:



But.... 15-20% of the current user base, i can see leaving.  


lolololololol 20%, we're talking 2-3% at best and to be frank its a user population Apple will be HAPPY to be rid of.
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#71 Matt Diamond

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 01:16 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 25 June 2020 - 12:27 PM, said:

lolololololol 20%, we're talking 2-3% at best and to be frank its a user population Apple will be HAPPY to be rid of.

I agree the percentage is low.  But why would they be "HAPPY" to be rid of them? I can see that supporting Windows drivers for a tiny number of bootcampers might not be worth the effort any more. But having VMWare and Parallels on the platform is pure gravy for them. Isn't it?
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#72 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 01:58 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 25 June 2020 - 01:16 PM, said:

I agree the percentage is low.  But why would they be "HAPPY" to be rid of them? I can see that supporting Windows drivers for a tiny number of bootcampers might not be worth the effort any more. But having VMWare and Parallels on the platform is pure gravy for them. Isn't it?

I think they always viewed it as a necessary evil get around the Mac software gap but have decided that software is now at a state where the vast majority of apps are either on Mac natively already, or can run as a web app that doesn't care what OS you use. It is still somewhat important to them (as evidenced by them talking about docker and other virtualization during the keynote) but they think the trade off is worth it at this point.

Also, the A12Z should not be taken as any sort of indication of the power level of the upcoming Mac silicon. It is just a refresh of a chip from 2018 and is just for devs to test out their software on. Back when they shipped the first dev kits of Intel Macs they were running a relatively low powered Pentium 4 that was majorly outclassed by the first real Intel Macs that were released on the Core architecture. Just the simple addition of an active cooler should allow them to push significantly higher clock speeds then the A12Z, ignoring any IPC and architectural improvements that are also coming.

Expect the Mac silicon to be running on the 3 generations newer ARM 8.6 instruction set (A12Z is on 8.3, A13 is on 8.4) had have more high performance cores then what we see in the current iPhone/iPads. The A12Z has 4 high performance cores and 4 low power cores. The A13 has 2 high performance cores and 4 low power cores. Once the Mac is released reviewers can do apples to apples comparisons by rendering/compiling identical projects in Final Cut, Logic Pro, and Xcode to see exactly how a Mac silicon chip of X wattage compares with an Intel chip of the same X wattage
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#73 macdude22

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 02:43 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 25 June 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

Also, the A12Z should not be taken as any sort of indication of the power level of the upcoming Mac silicon.

Anyone who thinks Apple processors for Macs won't be blindingly fast isn't paying attention. This performance is in a passively cooled, low power tablet device. Can't wait what they do unconstrained by tablet power and thermal requirements.

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#74 macdude22

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 02:50 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 25 June 2020 - 01:16 PM, said:

I agree the percentage is low.  But why would they be "HAPPY" to be rid of them? I can see that supporting Windows drivers for a tiny number of bootcampers might not be worth the effort any more. But having VMWare and Parallels on the platform is pure gravy for them. Isn't it?

Bootcamp exists because people were cooking MacBooks fumbling around to install windows without a sufficient software interface to the hardware. It might be gravy for VMware and parallels. It's a cost center for Apple, not gravy. The tiny population of customers that is boot camping are a whiney, needy bunch of hobbyists that don't spend nearly enough money to make them worth Apple's time. Sneaky Snake has the right idea for ACTUAL enterprise customers. We're already deploying thousands of iOS devices with vendor and custom apps. Now we'll have a desktop computer platform that supports those apps natively out of the box! ChaChing.

Sorry folks but the number of people doing work or needing boot camp/virtualization for work is a rounding error. Its fine to live in a bubble but pop your head out every so often and don't let the door to windowsville hit you on the ass.
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#75 UmarOMC1

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 02:51 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 24 June 2020 - 09:05 PM, said:

Because of MASSIVE parallelization.  

Not everything can benefit from that.  A lot of things need piles and piles of IPC and blistering clock speeds.  (Gaming being one notable thing, but im not ragging on Apple for lack of gaming support due to this switch - their gaming support is already trash, so thats not new).
:bullseye:  And I know we're not drinking enough of the Kool-Aid to be seeing Apple Arcade as support for gaming, either.

View PostTetsuya, on 24 June 2020 - 09:05 PM, said:

But im certainly not going to pay more than that.  Anything much past that dollar value and i can build a MUCH more powerful, upgradeable, and still small and cool looking PC and run Linux and/or Chromium on it.  But i cant justify paying the Apple premium for a machine that is LESS capable than the one it would be replacing.
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View PostMatt Diamond, on 25 June 2020 - 01:16 PM, said:

I agree the percentage is low.  But why would they be "HAPPY" to be rid of them? I can see that supporting Windows drivers for a tiny number of bootcampers might not be worth the effort any more. But having VMWare and Parallels on the platform is pure gravy for them. Isn't it?
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#76 Tetsuya

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:11 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 25 June 2020 - 12:27 PM, said:

lolololololol 20%, we're talking 2-3% at best and to be frank its a user population Apple will be HAPPY to be rid of.

Ill disagree.  

I know too many people who use their macs this way to think its that small given how tiny Apple's share of the market actually is (Sub 5%, and falling as Chromebooks eat their education market alive).  

Just in ONE small hospital system that consists of six hospitals and assosciated offices we're talking, easily, ~4,000+ machines.  Or more.  Every time i go to visit my wife for lunch, almost every person in a white coat is toting a Mac.  ALL of them have to somehow virtualize E-clinical Works and EPIC.  The only PCs you see are at the nurses stations themselves and (50/50) the rolling stations with a laptop on them.  (And almost assuredly the machines that run the MRI machines, etc, if those aren't running UNIX or something instead).  

And if Apple is happy to be rid of me, someone who has generally owned multiple pieces of hardware at a time and evengelized them for years, since my first SE/30?  

the term "F-em" comes to mind.  That kind of inane jackassery can die in a fire. Ill be happy to just stop buying Apple products alltogether and join the "Never Buy Apple" evangelists.

#77 Tetsuya

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:24 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 25 June 2020 - 02:50 PM, said:

Sorry folks but the number of people doing work or needing boot camp/virtualization for work is a rounding error. Its fine to live in a bubble but pop your head out every so often and don't let the door to windowsville hit you on the ass.

And you supposedly work in Hospitals?  

There.
Is.
No.
EMR.
Software.
That.
Works.
On.
Anything.
But.
Windows.  

ZERO MANY.  

NONE.  

They do not work as Web Apps, they do not work anywhere but Windows, and their use is required by Federal law.  Full.  Stop.  

And the companies involved have no plans of ANY KIND to support anything else.  Ive been to their conferences with my wife (they pay to send her to these things, and get her a hotel, so i drive down to hang out with her - last one was in Nashville; i got to check out the mall that the American Pickers store is in).  Theyre very clear.  They get asked every time about iPad support.  The answer is:  never coming.  Not even a consideration.  At all.  

The irony of that "living in a bubble" comment is staggering.  

And (conservatively) ~100,000-200,000 machines a year is not a "rounding error" for a company that barely ships 4 million computers a year.

#78 Tetsuya

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 05:34 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 25 June 2020 - 12:21 PM, said:

Also, Mac moving to ARM actually allows Macs to be different from PC's. Currently there is literally zero reasons to buy a Mac other then "I like macOS", or "I'm of a software developer that needs Xcode".

Major corporate IT departments disagree with you.  IBM switched to all-Macs for their employees, because they are so much easier to support.  They estimated that the cost savings on IT costs would be over 50%.  As one example.  

Quote

Every single Mac has a dozen comparable alternatives with identical or better hardware on the PC side.

I frequently get into this misconception on other forums i frequent.  You can get PCs that have similar specs/hardware - but not identical, not without costing as much or more.  Yeah, you can get an MSI or Gigabyte plastic slab with an i9, lts of RAM, more storage... but its not really equivalent to a Mac.  It doesn't have TB3, it doesn't have eGPU support, It doesn't weigh 4 lbs, It gets half the battery life, and it has a worse screen, especially for work (the color space on those PCs is ABYSMAL).  Now, there are -totally- comparable PCs (that are even better in some cases because of more GPU power) - the Razer Blade Pro is very Mac Like.  It also costs just as much as a Mac with similar specs, apart from the better GPU (a 2070 Max Q).  Even if you just wanted to install Windows on it, Its hard to beat Apple's hardware without spending just as much.  

There are plenty of reasons to buy a Mac other than "i like MacOS".   Hardware quality, versatility, best in the business warranty, actually reasonable prices (the "Apple Tax" isn't that high anymore when you compare to ACTUALLY spec equivalent PCs) in a lot of cases.  Much cheaper and easier to support for IT departments, etc.  

Quote

We will have a much more detailed view of how things are going to work this fall once they actually release a Mac that we can benchmark.

Right, like i said, im open to the possibility that they are sitting on some ARM based superchip.  But im not holding my breath.

#79 macdude22

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 06:27 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 25 June 2020 - 05:24 PM, said:


And (conservatively) ~100,000-200,000 machines a year is not a "rounding error" for a company that barely ships 4 million computers a year.

Apple shipped 3.2 million macs in Q1 alone, and that was 20% down from Q1 2019 due to the global economic climate.

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#80 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 25 June 2020 - 08:23 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 25 June 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

Major corporate IT departments disagree with you.  IBM switched to all-Macs for their employees, because they are so much easier to support.  They estimated that the cost savings on IT costs would be over 50%.  As one example.  

IBM finding Macs to be more cost efficient can be absolutely true and it can also be absolutely true that Macs will not be optimal for other companies. Just because one major company uses Macs doesn't mean every other major company is bleeding millions of $$$ in IT budget because they are windows fanboys and refuse to swap to Mac.

View PostTetsuya, on 25 June 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

I frequently get into this misconception on other forums i frequent.  You can get PCs that have similar specs/hardware - but not identical, not without costing as much or more.  Yeah, you can get an MSI or Gigabyte plastic slab with an i9, lts of RAM, more storage... but its not really equivalent to a Mac.  It doesn't have TB3, it doesn't have eGPU support, It doesn't weigh 4 lbs, It gets half the battery life, and it has a worse screen, especially for work (the color space on those PCs is ABYSMAL).  Now, there are -totally- comparable PCs (that are even better in some cases because of more GPU power) - the Razer Blade Pro is very Mac Like.  It also costs just as much as a Mac with similar specs, apart from the better GPU (a 2070 Max Q).  Even if you just wanted to install Windows on it, Its hard to beat Apple's hardware without spending just as much.  

There are plenty of reasons to buy a Mac other than "i like MacOS".   Hardware quality, versatility, best in the business warranty, actually reasonable prices (the "Apple Tax" isn't that high anymore when you compare to ACTUALLY spec equivalent PCs) in a lot of cases.  Much cheaper and easier to support for IT departments, etc.  

That really wasn't my point at all. My point was that in 2020 very few people need to use any specific OS.The majority of computers users could swap between Windows, Mac, and Linux and still do their job completely fine after they had learned the new OS. Earlier in this thread (or perhaps it was a different one) you mentioned just how easy it would be for you to totally drop macOS since the only reason you are using it is because it is what you are used to.

And I'm not one of the pcmr people saying that you can just replace your Mac with a $500 garbage laptop and win in every spec. There are great PC's out there that compete with Apple's build quality, performance, and warranty. Matching or beating it some of the time. The new XPS 15 and 17 from Dell for example. They offer a very compelling package of power, portability, build quality and warranty (their warranty is vastly better then Apple's). You pay roughly the same, but price was not what I was arguing. I'm simply saying that Apple's current offerings of computers aren't unicorns that you can't find any comparison to.

Apple sells really high quality systems and so do other companies. ARM has the potential to change this and allow Apple to sell really good computers that other companies can't match given a specific use case.


View PostTetsuya, on 25 June 2020 - 05:34 PM, said:

Right, like i said, im open to the possibility that they are sitting on some ARM based superchip.  But im not holding my breath.

Why does it have to be a superchip? They could just release a A13X with an active cooler and a slight clockspeed bump and it would easily compete with Intel's low wattage CPUs.


I think we are on the same side here. I'm not trying to shill PC's. I love Macs and I'm excited to see where ARM takes the Mac.
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