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Mafia 3 - Hardware issues


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#1 Togglemeister

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 07:45 PM

Wow. Sounds like the porting is awful and there are many macs that have Nvidia.

"Operating System: macOS 10.12.4 (Sierra)
Processor: Intel Core i5 (4 cores)
Processor Speed: 3.2 GHz
Memory: 8 GB
Hard Drive Space: 50 GB
Video Card (AMD): Radeon R9 M290X
VRAM: 2 GB
According to Aspyr's support page, "Mafia 3" would need an AMD video card with at least 2GB of VRAM to run. Another thing is that if players have either an Intel or NVIDIA graphic card on their Mac, then they will only be met with "severe game instability" and "sub-par framerates."
Below is the list of qualified Mac models for "Mafia 3."
AMD Radeon Pro 450, 455, or 460 (late 2016 MBP)
AMD Radeon R9 M370X (mid 2015 and 2016 MBP)
AMD Radeon R9 M380, M390, M395, or M395X (late 2015 iMac)
AMD Radeon R9 M290X or Radeon R9 M295X (late 2014 iMac)
AMD FirePro D300, dual AMD FirePro D500, or dual AMD FirePro D700 (late 2013 MacPro)"
(Now) Late 2013 27" 3.4 ghz iMac, stock configurations.
(Then) 2005 Powermac G5 Dual Core 2.3 ghz, Leopard, 256mb nvidia 6600GT.
(Archived) DA w/Single Sonnet G4 1.4 ghz  2mb L3, Tiger, 1 gb ram, 128 mb ati 9800 pro (AGP)

#2 Togglemeister

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 11:14 PM

And I have a late 2013" iMac with the Nvidia. Dammit !!
(Now) Late 2013 27" 3.4 ghz iMac, stock configurations.
(Then) 2005 Powermac G5 Dual Core 2.3 ghz, Leopard, 256mb nvidia 6600GT.
(Archived) DA w/Single Sonnet G4 1.4 ghz  2mb L3, Tiger, 1 gb ram, 128 mb ati 9800 pro (AGP)

#3 UmarOMC1

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:52 AM

Also pointed out in Aspyr's Upcoming Projects thread.
macOS 10.12.x/Windows 7 Pro/2009 MacPro 4,1 Xeon W3580 3.33GHz/16GB RAM/EVGA GTX1070 8GB

#4 jeannot

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:27 PM

View PostTogglemeister, on 15 May 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Wow. Sounds like the porting is awful ...
...or like nVidia drivers are awful.

#5 UmarOMC1

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:16 PM

View Postjeannot, on 16 May 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

...or like nVidia drivers are awful.
No, NVIDIA are doing a great job with support considering Apple's crap support for third party GPUs.
macOS 10.12.x/Windows 7 Pro/2009 MacPro 4,1 Xeon W3580 3.33GHz/16GB RAM/EVGA GTX1070 8GB

#6 jeannot

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 12:23 AM

View PostUmarOMC1, on 17 May 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

No, NVIDIA are doing a great job with support considering Apple's crap support for third party GPUs.
I don't get it. There are Macs with nVidia GPUs. If none can run a game, I don't call that a great job.
Geforce Metal Drivers are nVidia's job, not Apple's. Apple's job is to provide the Metal specs.

#7 UmarOMC1

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 01:13 AM

View Postjeannot, on 18 May 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

I don't get it. There are Macs with nVidia GPUs. If none can run a game, I don't call that a great job.
Geforce Metal Drivers are nVidia's job, not Apple's. Apple's job is to provide the Metal specs.
Look in System > Library > Extensions. Save for what Nvidia's WebDriver installer places there that has to be updated with every macOS update it's all native kernel extensions developed and placed there by Apple for very specific hardware, namely what is specifically purchased by Apple for inclusion in their product line.

A post on MacRumors does a better job of explaining, note;

Quote

27) Why does every security update break the NVIDIA web driver?

NVIDIA provides a set of binary driver components that must interact with a binary interface from the Apple components, both Frameworks like Metal or OpenGL and kernel extensions like IOKit. As far as I can tell, NVIDIA has two options:
  • Tie each driver release to a specific build of the OS, so that they can guarantee that those binary interfaces remain static and thus their binary drivers are compatible. Every time Apple releases a new build of the OS, NVIDIA must release a new build of the drivers to match.
  • Assume that Apple won't change these binary interfaces in a security update and allow one driver build to work with any version of a specific OS release (like 10.12.2). If Apple does change one of these interfaces, the driver would continually crash or cause kernel panics, thus rendering the system basically unusable.
NVIDIA has chosen the first of these two options in order to avoid the huge support burden that would be generated any time Apple changes an interface that their drivers depend on. Having the desktop continually crash or the system go into a kernel panic boot loop can be very difficult to recover from, so NVIDIA has chosen the lesser of two evils and will generally require a new driver build to exactly match the specific OS build that Apple releases to the public.

Also noted here;

Quote

The sad part is, nVidia doesn't have to build lock in Windows under any version of that OS. So the onus here still falls on Apple. And it's a major reason support is such a nightmare for Mac OS.

macOS 10.12.x/Windows 7 Pro/2009 MacPro 4,1 Xeon W3580 3.33GHz/16GB RAM/EVGA GTX1070 8GB

#8 jeannot

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 10:15 AM

The implementation of Metal is the job of GPU makers, irrespective of the copyright you may find on a kext.
So if default nVidia drivers don't support a game that AMD drivers can, I won't blame Apple at first, but nVidia.
Or course, it can be argued that the ultimate responsibility lies on Apple. They are the one who should make sure their machines work properly.

Compatibility between drivers and other OS components does not seem of relevance to this issue.

#9 UmarOMC1

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:00 PM

If it's on the vendor then why did it take Apple's release of 10.12.4 for full Metal support according to Feral? Feral's announcement didn't mention anything about Nvidia's drivers.
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#10 jeannot

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:14 PM

I believe Feral mentioned their interaction with Apple and with the GPU vendors, though I don't remember. Apple are the ones who communicate with developers and who must take responsibility for any macOS issue. That's their job to have GPU vendors make working drivers, because users won't complain to nVidia.

#11 elowel

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:06 PM

The web drivers had crappy Metal support for a long time and the most recent Pascal-ready web drivers perform pretty badly, especially on Kepler and Maxwell cards.
It's safe to say that nVidia's Mac support is not as good as people seem to claim it is.

Yes, the AMD drivers were buggy (buggier) for a long time, but "better than AMD" doesn't make them good, especially since AMD is now (apparently) fixed.

#12 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:24 AM

It is worth keeping in mind that nobody here is stepping through this game's code and seeing (or trying to find) just exactly what the problem(s) are in detail. Therefore, you guys can go on about this endlessly without really knowing what precisely is the problem.

Additionally, the last system shipped by Apple with nvidia hardware was years ago now, was it not? That means the priority level of this is not very high realistically. The parties involved have bigger fish to fry.

Lastly, this AAA game is out of the gate too demanding for the majority of Apple systems to run well, period. By this I mean, the most recent Apple systems. I would never expect a demanding AAA release from 2016(?) to run well or possibly at all on a late-2013 27" iMac. I had one. I sold it for a grand and got a PS4 for cheap which does run this game fine. That isn't the right or best choice for everyone I know but it sure works for me.
“The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” — Bertrand Russell

#13 jeannot

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 12:07 PM

I suppose that if the issue was in Aspyr's code, they would have fixed it before shipping the game.
And while nVidia-powered Macs are not recent, some sill have good GPUs like the 780M and 680MX.
Some could actually play portions of the game on a 750M in HD, with settings on low, and on a 1080 TI with highest settings. https://www.mac4ever...-les-hackintosh
So there's not reason why nVidia GPUs should be left out for this game.

#14 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 04:35 PM

As I just stated, we can suppose all kinds of stuff and be completely ignorant about whatever is really the problem which we are in reality. That's the major point I was trying to make. So I certainly cannot argue about whatever it is or is not and frankly, neither can anybody else not intimately involved in the development of this software. End of story.

My comment clearly indicated it has been years since a stock Apple computer included an nvidia GPU and it still stands. Would you expect to play this demanding title on what is not not even midrange in Windows? You'd be disappointed if you did.

Hackintosh is irrelevant for a discussion about support for a AAA game. Nobody supports that. So if that works well with a 1080 card for a minuscule portion of the market that is nice for them but it means nothing to the rest of the Mac nvidia users with woefully underpowered mobile GPUs for current AAA. That's just the way it is.

I will not say that older nvidia hardware is not good. I liked mine fine but my expectations were also in line with its capabilities. The 780m was only midrange performance at best relative to desktop options available when it was brand new, over three years ago now. Honestly, don't Windows gamers  tend to upgrade DESKTOP GPUs about that often so they run new stuff fluently? You might not have to depending on the game but I am pretty sure at the enthusiast level 3 years is old for a GPU if you want a stable 60 FPS on high or better settings. That statement keep in mind reflects the reality that few users buy the new top end with any regularity if at all due to cost.

If you cannot manage high (not ultra) settings with at minimum a rock solid 30 FPS or better on a desktop of any kind or a laptop for that matter, why even bother? This in a nutshell is why nvidia is now irrelevant for Macs and will remain so until and if Apple ever returns to them for GPUs.

Why do you think the nvidia web driver exists? Somebody wants Apple's business again. That's why. That is why they even bothered to run advertising on it in the email newsletter I get. They are advertising and supporting (somewhat) something that a tiny segment of users are using. That makes no sense at all except for the reason I just gave. Who are they marketing to with that? Users that don't have the hardware in their Mac and cannot add it? I don't think so. A handful of old Mac Pro and hackintosh users? Running ads just for them? Nope, not likely. Apple was a big account to lose and they want it back. Maybe they will earn it back too. We shall see I guess.
“The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” — Bertrand Russell

#15 elowel

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 02:08 AM

FYI Aspyr say the game is playable on the M370X, M380, M390, and the workstation-focused D300, D500 and D700. All of which, except perhaps for the D700, are outperformed by the 780M GTX from the 2013 iMac. These are mid-ranged mobile GPUs at best, and the 780M is a high-end mobile GPU, albeit from 2013.
Also, nVidia released the web drivers for Mac because they have workstation/professional users running Mac Pros who want to use modern GPUs (and optimise CUDA performance) in their professional applications (e.g. Smoke, Resolve), not play games. This is why it took so long to add support for non-Mac Pro systems.

We are saying the problem is driver related to driver instability because Aspyr said it is driver related to driver instability on Twitter. (https://twitter.com/...363513863512064)

#16 DirtyHarry50

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 03:55 AM

Well, I hope it gets fixed for those that can benefit from it. Does the 780m meet the reqs for the game in Windows?
“The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.” — Bertrand Russell