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New iMac - Revenge of the Chin


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#21 Homy

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Posted 22 April 2021 - 06:26 AM

This iMac has replaced the old 21.5" so with that in mind it's a good replacement. Hopefully the larger iMacs for pros will have some of the lacking features people talk about later this year. I miss the logo on the chin but it's not a big deal. Don't mind the chin at all since you get best sound from the speakers there. Where else could they put them for best sound? Don't mind the bezels. They're thin enough. Black would be better but I've had all white iMac 17" 2006 and it didn't bother me as I can remember (still have it without using).

Few people seem to talk about the advantage of a power brick outside the iMac. It will be easy to replace if needed instead of having to send the iMac away for service. Also less heat inside the computer and longer life for other components.

I was hoping though for a better GPU option like Vega 20 in the older iMac. 23.5" is enough for me since I currently use iMac 21.5" 2011, but I understand that they just wanted to replace the old 21.5" and better options will come in fall with M2.  I just hope that my iMac 2011 will last until then. I was ready to buy but this one is not for me. Looking forward to the big Macs. :)

#22 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 02:28 AM

View PostHomy, on 22 April 2021 - 06:26 AM, said:

Few people seem to talk about the advantage of a power brick outside the iMac. It will be easy to replace if needed instead of having to send the iMac away for service. Also less heat inside the computer and longer life for other components.

Quality power supplies very rarely fail and can last 20 years: my PC's PSU has a 10 years warranty; granted it's a premium model from a quality brand (Seasonic), but still they wouldn't do it if they knew half the PSUs will fail after 15 years. And they don't generate so much heat either. So that's kind of a moot point IMHO.

#23 Homy

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 07:56 AM

Up to 2x faster than 560X and up to 50% faster than Vega 20 is a bold claim. Is the GPU clocked higher, hence the reason for two fans? TFLOPS is not everything but here are some numbers:

Radeon Pro 560X 2.056 TFLOPS
Apple M1 2.6 TFLOPS
Radeon Pro Vega 20 3.284 TFLOPS

iMac M1 4.112 to 4.642 TFLOPS?
Radeon Pro 5300 4.224 TFLOPS
Radeon Pro 5500M 4.454 TFLOPS

In GFXBench M1 is already 2 times faster but not 50% faster than Vega 20.

#24 macdude22

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 12:51 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 21 April 2021 - 06:59 PM, said:


artifically-shortened-lifespan'ed eWaste.  


LOLWUT

View Postnick68k, on 21 April 2021 - 08:45 PM, said:

Yeah, I dunno. I can't speak for your experiences (obviously!), but I usually get 5-7 years of useful life out of Apple desktops and laptops as daily drivers. Then I hand them on to someone else who can make good use of them (in the past a parent, but nowadays friends or local organisations). But I concede your point; the days of easily upgradeable, consumer-level Apple hardware (external storage aside) are probably long gone. That said, the forthcoming ARM Mac Pros could be very, very interesting machines.

If only the market offered some alternative for the 2.7% of folks that care to upgrade anything. Alas such an alternate solution doesn't exist. Apparently. Oh wait.
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#25 Tetsuya

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 02:24 PM

Look, i know you've been on this weird Apple-can-do-no-wrong-ever kick lately, but its starting to wear extremely thin and makes it basically impossible to take you seriously.  (Almost the dictionary definition of "arguing in bad faith").  

But, by all means, continue to White Knight for Apple's blatantly anti-consumer practices like its somehow a good thing.  

We're all just behind the curve of not doing exactly what Daddy Apple knows is truly best for us.  We definitely dont know what we really need.

Ill just leave this here.  

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvVafMi0l68&ab_channel=LinusTechTips[/media]

#26 macdude22

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Posted 24 April 2021 - 04:56 PM

Checks the hundred of cases I've filed with Apple. Yep i'm the Apple can do nothing wrong white knight. :rolleyes:

Daddy Apple knows what's best for Apple, sure. I know its a struggle to understand but the majority of the market are not fiddling car people techies. They just buy a thing to do a thing. Keep living in blindersville though. I'm sure the shade is nice.
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#27 jos

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 11:39 AM

I've never understood this whole obsession of being able to upgrade a Mac. Most people have absolutely no knowledge at all about the insides and the workings of a computer. They just know how to do the most basic things by clicking some UI elements on the screens and that's all. Most people have absolutely no knowledge about upgrading a computer, nor the interest to do so.

In my days of Windows 2000 and Windows XP I did have this knowledge and I did have computers that were easily upgradable. Still, whenever it got too slow to play my games, I just ended up buying a new PC. Yes, I could have upgraded the GPU, but the CPU was several years old as well, so why not upgrade that one as well? If you're upgrading both the GPU and the CPU, the RAM can't stay behind. To support all of these new components it'd be good to upgrade the motherboard as well. So, why not just buy a completely new PC?

In this case we're talking about a gamer who uses Windows PCs. They're the ones who've always been most interested in upgrading their systems. The general Mac user has absolutely no interest at all in upgrading their Mac. We don't upgrade our iPhones, we don't upgrade our iPads and most Mac users don't upgrade their MacBooks, just like those with an Acer laptop don't upgrade their system. So, why would someone with an iMac need upgradability? The only thing they were actually able to easily upgrade was the RAM anyway and who ever did this? I can't imagine how no longer being able to upgrade the RAM is suddenly such a miss.

To me this obsession of being able to upgrade a Mac is just like those Linux users who are obsessed with software being open source. When you ask them why the average home user should ditch their Windows PC or Mac and start using Linux their only argument usually is: "It's open source, so if you don't like it you can just change it yourself." Yeah, right. Like the average home user will start learning how to program and make changes to the kernel or the word processor or the browser.

The average user has absolutely no knowledge about these kinds of things, nor the interest. They just want something that's reliable and easy to use. They don't care about software being open source or closed source. Just like they don't care about upgradability.

#28 Matt Diamond

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 11:59 AM

I think macdude has a valid point, though he is saying it in a way designed to annoy people.

Apple has pushed their product line a certain way for many many years, and yet people like me keep hoping they'll eventually get back to putting out an expandable mid-range tower, or some other gamer friendly product that will get us back to "the good old days." I can't say it will never happen, but it would be a big change for Apple.

Apple's behavior is frustrating and mysterious unless you see that they are targeting the >95% of people who do not like to fiddle with their computers. Most people don't tune their own cars, and most don't upgrade their own computers. Whether or not you believe it, Apple clearly does.

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#29 Homy

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 12:10 PM

I have owned iMacs since 2007. First 17" C2D and since 2011 21.5" quad-core 2.5 GHz. The only upgrade I did was the RAM for cheaper price. Before my first iMac I had a PM G4 Quicksilver 733 MHz 2001-2005 which was very upgradable but the PSU gave up. I borrowed a PM G4 400 MHz 2005-2007 and investigated the options for repairing and upgrading my PM Quicksilver with new PSU, GPU, CPU, more RAM and a LCD monitor instead of my old bulky 17" CRT. By then Apple had switched to Intel and the new Core 2 Duo iMac was introduced with everything I wanted. I figured it wasn't worth to pay so much for all the upgrades and repair and still be stuck with a G4.

Upgradability is only good for those who need it from the start or want to do it often every year or as soon as there is new hardware out. Otherwise as said above after some years by the time you need an upgrade you should as well buy a new computer because you would need to upgrade everything in your old one.

#30 Atticus

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 04:03 PM

Agree with Jos (especially the open source comparison)--the percentage of Apple customers who want to upgrade their own computers these days is probably a rounding error for Apple. I used to have fun adding RAM and bigger drives to my Macs back in the day, but I don't really miss it. If I feel like tinkering (or gaming), I have a gaming PC. I've hung a few external SSDs off of my 2014 Mini, and still works fine.

I hate when tech bros use car analogies but....for the last few cars I've owned I literally never lifted the hoods on them. I took them in for regular maintenance or when something went wrong, but never, ever had the urge to try to fix something myself. Don't have the acumen, time, tools, or patience to do so, just like most car owners (and just like computer owners who also don't want to add, say, more RAM themselves). Obviously there is a segment of car enthusiasts who love to tinker, mod, fix, and otherwise hot rod their vehicles, but I'm guessing that, too, is a teeny tiny fraction of the overall car market.

And sure, modders/tinkerers push their respective industries and do insane things to further the tech out on the bleeding edges, but they are the long tail and not where the $$$ is.
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#31 macdude22

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 05:39 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 25 April 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

I think macdude has a valid point, though he is saying it in a way designed to annoy people.


As if the PC nutters swarming this place don't annoy me :rolleyes:.

what are the "good old days"? The mid 90s when Apple tried to chase the PC clone market and it almost killed the company? It turns out Apple might NEVER have been the company for you. Good news. There's not a monopoly on the computer and phone market. One can tinker and fiddle as much as they want. Audi and Apple in 2021 don't sell to the DYI crowd.

View PostAtticus, on 25 April 2021 - 04:03 PM, said:

I hate when tech bros use car analogies but....for the last few cars I've owned I literally never lifted the hoods on them.

It's completely appropriate because the car bros blinders are are as bad or worse as the PC bro blinders. "wHaT DO yOu mean yOu DOn'T CHaNge yoUr owN bRAKEs".

There's plenty of valid criticism to level at the iMac within the confines of what the product is designed to do. 2 ports on the bottom end model? No USB-A on any model? Why is there no logo on the chin? The ethernet port is on the power brick? THE iMac HAS A POWER BRICK? (I have come to appreciate this might be a benefit to some of the market, they moved the two things that plug into the wall closer to the wall)
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#32 Sneaky Snake

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 06:10 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 24 April 2021 - 02:24 PM, said:

Look, i know you've been on this weird Apple-can-do-no-wrong-ever kick lately, but its starting to wear extremely thin and makes it basically impossible to take you seriously.  (Almost the dictionary definition of "arguing in bad faith").  

But, by all means, continue to White Knight for Apple's blatantly anti-consumer practices like its somehow a good thing.  

You are coming into a thread about an iMac refresh that is aimed squarely at casual users and then complaining about the unified RAM not being upgradeable and Apple's right to repair ethics. Topics certainly worth discussing but also not topics that are really relevant at all to their casual user iMac refresh.

The previous 21.5" iMac didn't have upgradeable anything either* so it just seems ridiculous to condemn its successor for not being upgradeable while also ignoring the entire trajectory of the product line and where we have known Macs with Apple Silicon are heading. This new iMac has a massive list of advantages over the previous model and to ignore all of that in the name of something that even the previous model couldn't do just seems like misplaced frustration.

Would an iMac with double or triple the core count of the M1 and upgradeable RAM like you want be technically better? Yes of course. Is it something that would be better in real world use for 99.99% of the users this iMac is targetting? Absolutely not. A replacement for the 27" iMac is coming which will certainly be much more power user focused in regards to specs.

A 4/4 CPU with great single thread performance, excellent graphics (as far as integrated go), ultra fast unified memory pool, pcie 4 SSD, silent operation under load, great speakers, great webcam, great screen, and extremely low power consumption are exactly the specs that the target demographic needs. Adding on extra cores that will sit idle 99.9% of the time or upgradeable RAM/storage that will be used by virtually no one just aren't features that matter at all for a product of this category.

No USB A ports (horrible IO in general), the stand supporting almost zero adjustments, base model getting no ethernet, and the included magic mouse still being horrible are much more valid critiques.

There is a difference between what is a good product for Tetsuya and what is a good product for demographic a product is targeting. You make personal attacks on macdude for what you say is a "Apple can do no wrong" approach. You have a "Apple can do nothing right" approach - which is identical, just the other side of the coin.


* technically you could upgrade the 21.5" iMac, but it required the screen and logic board to be carefully removed, which is a very involved task. I really do not count that as upgradeable by any reasonable means.
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#33 Matt Diamond

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 09:05 PM

View PostSneaky Snake, on 25 April 2021 - 06:10 PM, said:

You make personal attacks on macdude for what you say is a "Apple can do no wrong" approach. You have a "Apple can do nothing right" approach - which is identical, just the other side of the coin.
Macdude likes to provoke people on this particular topic though. Let's all settle down just a tad.

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#34 Thain Esh Kelch

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Posted 25 April 2021 - 10:34 PM

View PostMatt Diamond, on 25 April 2021 - 09:05 PM, said:

Macdude likes to provoke people on this particular practically every single topic though. Let's all settle down just a tad.
Fixed that for you. He is by far the number one troll in here, and it is getting really stale.
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#35 Camper-Hunter

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Posted 26 April 2021 - 03:31 AM

View Postjos, on 25 April 2021 - 11:39 AM, said:

In my days of Windows 2000 and Windows XP I did have this knowledge and I did have computers that were easily upgradable. Still, whenever it got too slow to play my games, I just ended up buying a new PC. Yes, I could have upgraded the GPU, but the CPU was several years old as well, so why not upgrade that one as well?

Because in recent years (unlike your Win XP days), most likely you don't need to, due to the fact CPU power progresses slowly. My PC has an i7 7700K (top of the line Intel 7th gen). I want to upgrade the graphics card for the second time (if I can find one at a decent price... I went from a GTX 1070 to RTX 2070, and now trying to find a RTX 3070 or 3080), but I did my homework and came to the conclusion that for gaming I don't need to change the CPU yet, even though Intel is at its 11th gen now. It's especially true since I game at high resolution (UWQHD), so the bottleneck is most of the time the GPU (hence why I change every 2 years) and that is progressing much more quickly than CPUs.
Look, a measly 14% increase in 4 years: [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLqVxyRPK80&t=455s[/media] And that's in 1080p. In 1440p or above, it will be even less unless you get a monster GPU.

#36 Homy

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Posted 26 April 2021 - 07:00 AM

New leaks!

[media]https://youtu.be/K-IK8BDTv0Y[/media]

#37 macdude22

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 06:55 AM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 25 April 2021 - 10:34 PM, said:

Fixed that for you. He is by far the number one troll in here, and it is getting really stale.

If calling out PC Narcissists that were never going to buy any Apple products anyway makes me a troll I'll wear the badge with honor.
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#38 Matt Diamond

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Posted 27 April 2021 - 07:52 PM

View PostThain Esh Kelch, on 25 April 2021 - 10:34 PM, said:

Fixed that for you. He is by far the number one troll in here, and it is getting really stale.

View Postmacdude22, on 27 April 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:

If calling out PC Narcissists that were never going to buy any Apple products anyway makes me a troll I'll wear the badge with honor.

It's gratifying how effective my appeal to settle down was. Now I won't need to take more drastic action.

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#39 Tetsuya

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 06:19 PM

View Postmacdude22, on 27 April 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:



If calling out PC Narcissists that were never going to buy any Apple products anyway makes me a troll I'll wear the badge with honor.

Ive owned Macs longer than youve been alive, most likely, but hey, do tell me how wanting Apple to be the company they used to be (that cared about their customers and the value proposition of an Apple product and didnt simply view its customers as money-teats to be endlessly milked) and produce a product that is not anti-consumer ewaste-in-waiting so i can actually get my moneys worth out if it makes me a “PC Narcissist”. (While typing this reply on my Macbook Pro and editing it later on my 2020 iPad Pro, those Apple products im never going to buy.)

Every other forum im part of has an ignore feature.  Is there one here that i missed?

#40 ipickert55

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 07:36 PM

View PostTetsuya, on 04 May 2021 - 06:19 PM, said:

Ive owned Macs longer than youve been alive, most likely, but hey, do tell me how wanting Apple to be the company they used to be (that cared about their customers and the value proposition of an Apple product and didnt simply view its customers as money-teats to be endlessly milked) and produce a product that is not anti-consumer ewaste-in-waiting so i can actually get my moneys worth out if it makes me a "PC Narcissist".

Aiming their product line features towards the vast majority of their customers interests = being anti consumer and not caring about their customers?

View PostSneaky Snake, on 25 April 2021 - 06:10 PM, said:

There is a difference between what is a good product for Tetsuya and what is a good product for demographic a product is targeting. You make personal attacks on macdude for what you say is a "Apple can do no wrong" approach. You have a "Apple can do nothing right" approach - which is identical, just the other side of the coin.

Reread this a few times.